Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2003 It doesn't matter who watches puro and who doesn't. Body of work is a key factor in determining "the greats" and Angle doesn't have it and never will because the WWE style limits what you can do in the ring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripper 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2003 Many belive that since he doesn't have a low point at which his matches sucked, and he has some damn fine matches on his resume to boast, and the fact that he won't be done for a while, he very well can become an all time great worker. Once again, you are talking workrate, and they only reason that you are calling his subpar is because of your knowledge of the Japanese/puro wrestling style. In American style pro wrestling, Kurt Angle isn't very far from being a all time great. He could learn some selling(funny how people say RVD doesn't sell but don't notice when Angle does it) and a few other things, but the guy is basically the total package. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2003 So basically Angle gets in because he wrestles the less challenging style and produces matches with less quality work? That sounds like quite the crock to me. A body of work is a body of work, regardless of whether or not a wrestler is Japanese, British, American, Mexican or Canadian. Anybody who would attempt to make a "Greats" list w/ an only "American Style" roster is out of their mind, as that list would be very short. I think you're confusing "American Style" with "WWE Style". Is Angle an all-time great in the WWE? No doubt. Is he an all-time great in pro wrestling? Far from it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripper 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2003 So basically Angle gets in because he wrestles the less challenging style and produces matches with less quality work? That sounds like quite the crock to me. A body of work is a body of work, regardless of whether or not a wrestler is Japanese, British, American, Mexican or Canadian. Anybody who would attempt to make a "Greats" list w/ an only "American Style" roster is out of their mind, as that list would be very short. I think you're confusing "American Style" with "WWE Style". Is Angle an all-time great in the WWE? No doubt. Is he an all-time great in pro wrestling? Far from it. And you can honestly say that your OPINION is a common one? Most people don't buy that this style is less challenging or the matches are less enjoyable. I watch basically every type of wrestling(not as much recently but have in the past) and have this uncanny ability to appreciate each style for their pluses and minuses. The style that Angle uses is different than the Japanese or Mexican or European couterparts but I personally and I am sure others agree, will not say that it is inferior or makes him any less of a good/evenutally great wrestler. I am not taking to task your statement that he isn't great now...he is still relatively young in his career. But to suggest that he will "NEVER be a considered a great" is basically your opinion that I do not believe would be held by most other people. You are basically saying that no matter what this guy does, he can never be considered a great? Despite that he has wrestled good to great Mat based matches, Hardcore/brawls, high flying, but he can never be considered a great because he is in the WWE? You are entitled to your opinion but I personally consider that to be ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted October 6, 2003 If the Iron Man matchup is any indication, Angle is in his "1998 Austin" phase. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austin3164life 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2003 I guess another thing that greatly affected Austin's dramatic turn in terms of workrate are his neck injuries after the Owendriver in 97. Before it, Austin was a great technical wrestler and wrestled soundly with a lot of psychology. After it, he changed his style to more of a brawler with some technique, because of his limited physical state. I think Ray said it before that brawling is a type of wrestling, and, imo, I think that the all-time-greats list shouldn't be open to strictly technical wrestlers. Sometimes triangle-chokes, arm-wrenches, and front-facelocks aren't the most important thing in a match. It's really hard to determine where certain wrestlers fall because it basically comes down to what type of wrestler you like. Personally, I have the disadvantage of not seeing a lot of Puroresu, but some names in my list of all-time-greats are Flair, Benoit, Austin, Bret, Sasuke, and Steamboat. Each wrestler has a different unique quality that makes them stand out (imo), but they all can adapt to other styles if needed. In that sense, Austin can (or could, at least) work a great technical match if needed, and he can also tell a great story within a match, but his strength showed with his great brawling style which had a technical edge to it somewhat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted October 6, 2003 Can we get back to Aaron Williams and his anti-Canadian remarks? This thread has gotten VERY off-topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted October 6, 2003 Can we get back to Aaron Williams and his anti-Canadian remarks? This thread has gotten VERY off-topic. That's what moderators are for. Just use the "split topic" feature that invision boards have, and move the off-topic posts to a new thread. Austin, Flair and quite a few others are better than Angle, but how long has Angle been wresting? Exactly. Austin and co. each have at least a decade of experience under their belt; But you see, years of experience is not always required to be good. Owen Hart debuted in 1986, and his 88-91 work in New Japan shows how quickly he became good. Owen after four years was better than Angle after four. Angle will only improve and I don't see his neck injury impeding his ability, Sadly, Angle isn't improving. In fact, I think he's getting worse. Angle has already peaked really. Actually he can and will be considered a great if he only works there. The American scene only wrestling watchers out number the puro watchers in great numbers actually. Seeing as we are in AMERICA, his body of work in AMERICAN wrestling can and will get him considered one of the greats. Uh, no. Based only on US work, Angle isn't close to Bret, Austin, Flair, Steamboat, Guerrero, Race, and more. Angle isn't just poor when compared to Japan. He can't measure up to his US peers. Despite that he has wrestled good to great Mat based matches, Hardcore/brawls, high flying, Whoa, great high flying matches?! Where the hell were these? Doing a moonsault doesn't = great high flying. And in these supposedly great "mat based matches", he does quite a bit of poor selling, and several other silly things (the famous anklelock on the wrong ankle, perhaps?). People keep saying that Austin basically sucked in 98-99, which is not true. He was slowed by his neck injury, and wrestling the likes of Undertaker and Kane (according to several people who I trust to rate matches, he allegedly guided 'Taker to a good match at Summerslam 98, but I haven't seen it). Austin also had good matches with Foley (OTE 98 being one of the best examples of the overbooked "WWE style" there is), and a surprisingly smart match with Rock at Backlash 99. Austin was terrible, but he somehow had the WWF MOTY in 98-99? How odd... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Workers Opinion: I don't hold it in higher regard than a fans', cause you know what? Some workers are dumb as a fucking tree stump and twice as thick. It all depends on what they use to justify their opinion with that gives it worth, not how many backbumps they've taken. Bret Hart calls the Ironman an all-time classic and Brock vs. Angle a great match... jesus fucking christ, what the fuck is he talking about?? And I am a huge Hart fan. Angle: Total Package?? Okey dokie. Striking - Horrible punches, that's about it. Submissions - 1... ok, if you want to count those 2 other moves he did to Raven a long time ago... 3... Grappling - sure, Olympic Gold, barely ever does it in the ring. Flying: Beautiful moonsault and a nice missile drop kick... but far from being a master high flyer. Psychology - cough. Selling - cough. Workrate - Probably the only area where he excells. Speaking - only in comedy Drawing - Ha. ...total package my ass. He works ONE STYLE in ONE COMPANY. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Benoit and Eddie, let alone be called an all time great. HBK - a bad worker if you count out-of-ring behaviour such as refusing to job and not losing titles as being a worker. In-ring work, I certainly wouldn't call it bad, I just don't think it's HOF worthy or as great as some say. Austin: Master of the "little things". He was in one -if not the- best match in WWE history. His work in 2001 is amazing considering that he had a year off from neck surgery - one of the best comeback performances ever. Benoit - look at his WM-KOTR work. The man was a fucking workhorse. That span goes totally unappreciated by both the fans and the WWE. Flair - Jumbo smokes him like a cheap cigar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 I can name a few more dudes who'd smoke Flair like said cigar but that's a whole other can o' worms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Benoit - look at his WM-KOTR work. The man was a fucking workhorse. That span goes totally unappreciated by both the fans and the WWE. From 2001? Personally, I like the narrower JD-KOTR 2001 time period. That's when I became a fan of his. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Do all their last names begin with an "M"??? Or is that a different type of cigar and a different type of smoking ?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Yeah well, JD was the night he did the 2/3 falls match, and then the tag matches w/ Jericho, and then the TLC 3, then the cage match with Angle, then the 2 matches with Austin, and maybe the tag match vs. austin and HHH... a nice lil run goin there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Your order is out of whack but I hear ya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 Well it *was* 2 years ago and I don't exactly want to go through the archives to ref check. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted October 7, 2003 (edited) Don't forget this night: SMACKDOWN JUNE 7TH 2001: Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho defeated The Acolytes Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho defeated Rhyno & The Big Show Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho defeated Steve Austin & Vince McMahon Best APA match I can recall...them jobbing in such a short time has nothing to do with it either. Edited October 7, 2003 by Ray Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Highland 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2003 I never called Angle an all time great, I said he COULD be, and my opinion of Austin being overrated hasn't changed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dynamite Kido Report post Posted October 7, 2003 These heel writers have nothing on Eddie Ellner. OMG.....I can't believe there was an Eddie Ellner reference.... BEST THREAD EVER!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
