Boston VS NY

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Why does everyone suddenly assume a 72 year old man is helpless? The elderly are amazingly strong, in some cases.

 

I wouldn't want Don Zimmer sockin' me in the nose. I think Pedro was totally in the right, tossin him' aside.

 

In a weird way, I enjoyed this incident. Baseball is a sport that really needs some bad blood. Keeps me more interested, anyway.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Apologies for the triple or quadruple post.

[nl5xsk1 0]

I'd suspend the following...to start on the next season

 

Pedro: 8 games(Threw intentionally at an opposing batter and made an insinuating gesture)

Good thing that Clemens is retiring, then, or he'd be facing an 8-gamer too.

 

Know who I think should be suspended for the one-the-field happenings? No one. Nothing happened after the warnings were made, so no suspensions should be made.

 

For the debacle in the bullpen, though, I'm going to wait and hear the final story before making up my mind. If the Sox employee really did swing first, then I think that Nelson was Ok to pummel him. If it was Nelson that threw the first punch, then a think a 3-5 game suspension would make sense. (Garcia, as a player on the field, had no reason to leap into the bullpen to join a gang-style beat down, but I don't think that's a suspend-able offense. Just another inside fastball next season should suffice.)

[Guest Anglesault]

I'd suspend the following...to start on the next season

 

Pedro: 8 games(Threw intentionally at an opposing batter and made an insinuating gesture)

Good thing that Clemens is retiring, then, or he'd be facing an 8-gamer too.

 

 

Why, exactly?

[nl5xsk1 0]

I'd suspend the following...to start on the next season

 

Pedro: 8 games(Threw intentionally at an opposing batter and made an insinuating gesture)

Good thing that Clemens is retiring, then, or he'd be facing an 8-gamer too.

 

 

Why, exactly?

Throwing at a batter (when he went relatively high and inside on Manny) and then for his threatening remarks and actions during the ensuing face-off (a couple "fuck you"s were pretty obvious during that standoff)

 

And don't ignore the fact the the next line in my post was that NO ONE should be suspended. I was purely going by the reasoning Dawn provided about why Martinez deserves a suspension, and was pointing out that Clemens would too.

[sfaJack 0]

Throwing at a batter (when he went relatively high and inside on Manny) and then for his threatening remarks and actions during the ensuing face-off (a couple "fuck you"s were pretty obvious during that standoff)

 

And don't ignore the fact the the next line in my post was that NO ONE should be suspended. I was purely going by the reasoning Dawn provided about why Martinez deserves a suspension, and was pointing out that Clemens would too.

I could see your reasoning for suspending Clemens along with Pedro, except for one thing: CLEMENS DIDN'T THROW AT RAMIREZ INTENTIONALLY.

 

Christ almighty, I'm not a Yankee fan in any way. I don't care much at all about what the Red Sox do, either. But as AS said earlier, if Clemens had wanted to hit Manny, HE WOULD HAVE HIT HIM. How in the hell can you say that Clemens was throwing at him intentionally when the pitch was over the freakin' plate? No way was that pitch intended for Manny's earhole.

 

Manny overreacted. That is the only reason there was any sort of confrontation in the 4th inning (the 9th is a different story).

 

It's not like it matters, anyway. Suspensions or no suspensions, the Red Sox will still be the Yankees' bitch when this series is said and done anyway.

[nl5xsk1 0]

It's funny to me that I keep getting in these baseball debates, but actually am wicked apathetic about the game.

 

I recognize that if Clemens had wanted to hit Manny, he would have. None of this "almost" bullshit but an out and out beaning. Having said that, though, the pitch from Clemens was exactly where he wanted it to be: head high and rather inside. Just to bump Ramirez off the plate, but still an inside pitch. But it was done AFTER the umps said that they wouldn't put up with any of this shit. If the umps had deemed it necessary, Clemens could have gotten ejected. (and again, I'm NOT saying that he should have. Just pointing out that the umps had that option for him throwing inside after being warned not to)

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

If you take your New England colored sunglasses off for a moment...

 

that pitch wasn't inside at all.

 

Manny was just afraid he was going to get hit and overeacted to NOTHING.

[nl5xsk1 0]

If you take your New England colored sunglasses off for a moment...

 

that pitch wasn't inside at all.

 

Manny was just afraid he was going to get hit and overeacted to NOTHING.

Oh, I fully recognize that Manny over-reacted. But I still believe that Clemens threw that pitch to back Manny off the plate. He's done that his entire career.

 

And can't I please keep my New England colored sunglasses on? I look so much cooler in them.

[JHawk 0]

nl5xsk1, I'm not trying to start something with you, but the only way in hell that Clemens would have hit Manny with that pitch is if Manny would have put his head completely over the plate. "Relatively inside"? Is that like saying Pedro threw his pitch "somewhat behind Garcia"?

 

Trust me, if Clemens was trying to throw at Manny, everybody here would know it unless they kept their NYC sunglasses on. And this is coming from a guy who hates both teams and hopes the winning team has nothing left going into the World Series.

[Guest Anglesault]

It's funny to me that I keep getting in these baseball debates, but actually am wicked apathetic about the game.

 

I recognize that if Clemens had wanted to hit Manny, he would have. None of this "almost" bullshit but an out and out beaning. Having said that, though, the pitch from Clemens was exactly where he wanted it to be: head high and rather inside.

Inside of what?

 

It was right over the plate.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

It WAS right over the plate.

 

And if he was sending a message...you do that on the FIRST pitch...NOT ON A 1-2 COUNT

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Listening to Zimmer run his mouth is hilarious.

 

He makes it sound like Pedro beat him to within an inch of his life.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Huh? The only thing I've seen of Zimmer is his apology at a press conference.

[alfdogg 0]

I don't think anyone should be suspended or even ejected. This is the hottest rivalry arguably in all of sports, and a bunch of suspensions would just provide a bunch of excuses and just ruin it all. I don't condone the most of the actions of anyone involved, just something to think about.

 

Now then, call me crazy, but I don't really *think* Pedro was intentionally throwing at Garcia. I don't remember what exact pitch he was trying to throw, but if it was some kind of breaking pitch, it's very believable that it could have been unintentional, no matter how much Garcia wants to cry like a little bitch about it.

 

Clemens definitely wasn't throwing intentionally. The pitch, while not RIGHT over the plate, wasn't nearly inside enough for Manny to act like such a baby over. Like has been said, if Clemens wanted to send a message to Manny, he would have. Just ask Mike Piazza.

 

Zimmer deserved to get dropped. Come on, this is a COACH going after a PLAYER. Age should not be a factor. It was kind of a bull-headed move by Pedro, but then again, if you mess with the bull, you're gonna get the horns. So Pedro definitely could have handled it better, but that doesn't mean Zimmer didn't deserve what he got, and I wouldn't have been totally against Zim getting a fine on the same level as Pedro got.

 

I'm on Nelson's side with the bullpen thing, but there was no need for Garcia to go into the bullpen. I'm sure a PRO ATHLETE can handle himself against a groundskeeper, it was just Garcia trying to be hard. And when you do that, you normally come off looking like the bitch that Garcia is.

 

Now that I've shared my opinions, I'll respond to those of others:

 

Martinez through at Garcia. Then he jawed at the Yankees bench (Posada specifically). Apparently, he threatened to throw at his head, too, though my only source for that is the ESPN talking heads on baseball tonight.

 

I can believe that Pedro was saying that. Then again, ESPN has the most biased announcers in the world, so I DON'T believe what they insinuate.

 

throwing 72 year old Zim down with force

 

Please. If Pedro had FORCED him down, he very well could have killed him.

 

If I was Zim, I would of headbutted his ass with the plate.

 

Of course you would. After all, Yankee fans are the class of the league...

 

How much of a physical threat was Zimmer, really.

 

So, if a 300 pound man ran at you and jumped in the air with an outstretched fist, you wouldn't react?

 

Damn, can we just have both of these teams lose and Cubs v Marlins be the world series this year?

 

I concur with this statement.

 

And don't ignore the fact the the next line in my post was that NO ONE should be suspended.

 

That SURPRISES you? You haven't known AS for very long.

 

If you take your New England colored sunglasses off for a moment...

 

On-topic: Funny you say this, while most Yankee fans on here are asking for the suspensions of Pedro and Manny, arguably two of the three most important players on the Sox, and only Zimmer from the Yanks. No bias there at all...

 

Off-topic: Isn't NY part of New England?

 

Finally, it looks like what I said in another thread is true, this series is a lot more exciting than most of you thought. I also sort of feel sorry for Clemens...His last game in Boston in the regular season, he was given a standing O from the Boston crowd. That's the way it should have ended. Not like this. That's a shame.

Edited October 14, 2003 by alfdogg

[alfdogg 0]

One more thing:

 

I just saw Letterman on TV talking about this, and he pointed COMPLETELY at Zimmer's age as an excuse to chasitse Pedro (not that he didn't deserve to be chastised), and also claimed Pedro has shown no remorse for his actions. Someone posted a statement by Pedro in another thread. He even made fun, it appeared to me, of his voice.

 

Come on, Dave. I expected better from a Ball State guy.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

dude, Letterman lives in New York. Fans of either team have been completly illogical about this whole thing.

 

Like a guy on Sportscenter said, Yankees fans think Pedro is scum, Sox fans think Zimmer is scum, and the rest of us are just laughing.

 

 

ps - Ball State does rule though.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

NY is not part of New England- NE is Mass, RI, CT, Vermont, NH, and Maine.

 

As a Red Sox fan, here's my opinion (IN BULLET POINTS~!)

 

-Manny is a drama queen and a flake, that, regardless of how good he is, we should trade for pitching next year. He overreacted to the 10,000th degree, and that's what started this shit.

 

-Zimmer should have stayed on the bench, it was a beyond-stupid thing for him to do, trying to rush a guy more than half his age.

 

-Pedro definitely could have handled the situation better. I have no idea how, but he definitely could have.

[Guest El Satanico]

He was going to get shit on no matter what he did, so Pedro should've got his moneys worth and laid Zimmer out.

 

Fuck that "but he's old" bullshit, old men are mean old bastards.

[Guest MentallyNormal]

Heck old man Nolan Ryan put the beat down on Ventura.

So did Space man Buzz laided the moon landing on that idiot questioning his moon adventure.

Maybe if zim landed a punch,perhaps Pedro would be knocked out? Will never know now.

Who's says old people can't fight.

 

I always thought that zimmer was stump merril and stump was zimmer. Now I know which is which. They would make a great tag team though. Doh!

[nl5xsk1 0]

He was going to get shit on no matter what he did, so Pedro should've got his moneys worth and laid Zimmer out.

 

Fuck that "but he's old" bullshit, old men are mean old bastards.

The last thing that I would have wanted to see was the starting pitcher throwing punches with a guy that undoubtedly has more experience in brawls, regardless of their age. Where were the Sox coaches during this? It's times like this that I was that Jim Rice was still a coach. He would have had no problems laying out Zimmer with a haymaker. Hell, have Fisk be a coach; he's got Yankee-hatred pulsing through his veins.

 

And even in my NE-colored glasses, I have to say that there was no way that Pedro wasn't trying to hit Garcia. He was pissed off that he was getting shelled and took it out on the next batter. He wasn't aiming for his head, though.

 

The Spanish speaking people that were at the game are reporting that all the pointing to his head was Pedro telling Jorge that he'd remember this, not that he was aiming at their heads next time.

[Guest Ghettoman]

For everyone here with such an unbias viewpoint, some of you sure love to bend the facts until they make what your saying look pretty.

 

Who the hell said Zim ran, leaped and struck!? Can you show me the replay showing him in mid air with a clenched fist ready to punch Pedro? For one angle that didn't even show Zim coming towards Pedro you sure saw a lot.

 

And Pedro didn't throw him down with force!? Without force he never would of went down, let alone hard enough to bump off the ground. Grabbing someone with both hands and throwing them to the ground requires force, Pedro used more than neccesary.

 

My problem is people really don't seem to follow what they say. It's this whole "It's both there faults, but NY shouldn't of...." bullshit thats pissing me off. You wanna find a root for all of it, Pedro. You wanna throw out blame from there, do it individually, and stop trying to bend facts so they fit your arguement or just flat make up what happen, and for the love of god, stop acting as if this series is garbage to any learned baseball eficienado.....the elitism oozing out of those posts is making me gag.....

[JangoFett4Hire 0]

For one angle that didn't even show Zim coming towards Pedro you sure saw a lot.

Zimmer didn't seek Pedro out? Are you on crack?

 

 

rtsp://necn.mirror-image.com/media/video/101203_pedro_12p.rm

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

After seeing replays of Pedro/Zim *numerous* times, here's what I saw:

 

--Pedro said something to Zim as Zim was sprinting up to him

 

--Pedro didn't look like he was going to do anything until Zim started to raise his hands

 

--Pedro reacted to block Zim's hands, as well as shove Zim away

 

To me, if Zim didn't start to get his hands up, I doubt Pedro would have even put his hands on him. At the last moment, Zim made a move to hit Pedro (IMO), causing Pedro to react at the last minute.

[nl5xsk1 0]

For one angle that didn't even show Zim coming towards Pedro you sure saw a lot.

Zimmer didn't seek Pedro out? Are you on crack?

 

 

rtsp://necn.mirror-image.com/media/video/101203_pedro_12p.rm

JangoFett, you're my new idol. That video is awesome.

 

And Ghettoman, I'm one of the Sox backers in this debate, and so far I've pointed out that Pedro DID throw at Garcia on purpose, and also that Manny DID overreact. So it's not like you Yankees fans are all holier-than-thou and the Sox fans are the only ones being beligerant. It's been going on both ways, my friend.

 

The thing that the Yankees did that is fucking up their whole argument is assaulting that kid in the bullpen. I'm pretty sure that the team had the beat-down well in hand when it was 5-on-1, before Garcia jumped the wall to join in. If they hadn't of done that, then it would just be the Sox players that look like childish dicks; now it's people on both teams.

[alfdogg 0]

Zimmer didn't seek Pedro out? Are you on crack?

No, PCP.

 

It says so right in his profile.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Heck old man Nolan Ryan put the beat down on Ventura

 

That, to me, is one of the greatest moments in the history of professional sports. The Nolan Ryan headlock of death is definitely my favorite thing in the history of baseball. I could watch it over and over again.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Can someone show me where I said Zim never went after Pedro? I clearly remember saying the replay didn't show Zim before it happened, but only Pedro, meaning we don't know how fast Zim was coming at him, how he was coming at him, or what his intentions were. Jango maybe next time you should read my posts before telling me what drug I was on while reading it.

 

What does what happen in the bullpen have to do with the 4th inning? Taking one unrelated incident and relating it to another is like me saying the Sox were wrong because they were racist in the past. Like I said, if your gonna hand out blame beyond Pedro, do it individually. Don't say the Yankees are wrong because Garcia beat up some guy in the outfield or Don Zimmer ran at Pedro, Garcia's wrong for beating up some guy in the outfield, Don's wrong for running at Pedro. Hell the thing that pissed me off the most was Garcia's hard slide, but thats doesn't make all of the Yankee's wrong.

 

And why's everyone running from issue number one, Pedro's in the wrong? I've heard maybe all of one paragraph about how Pedro was wrong, when if it weren't for him this wouldn't even be discussed right now. Lets go on and on about how Pedro can't get it done in the clutch, or how when he realizes this he becomes the biggest baby in baseball.....wait nevermind, that puts the Sox in a bad light, back to how wrong Zim was for taking offense to a pitcher telling people he's gonna beam them in the head.....or lemme guess, Pedro was just telling Posada to use his head right?....

 

It's like watching my little brother get in trouble for drawing o n the couch and him telling my mom my sister smoked a ciagarette last week.

[nl5xsk1 0]

Ghettoman, I just quickly re-read this entire thread, and am having a difficult time finding more than 1 example of anyone saying that Pedro wasn't wrong to throw at Garcia. People are defending Pedro throwing Zimmer down, but people are not denying that Pedro threw at Garcia, nor are they making excuses for it. Both teams have multiple people that were in the wrong, but neither team is entirely wrong.

 

Pedro, as an individual, shouldn't have thrown at Garcia just because he was pissed off for having a bad inning. Manny was wrong for keeping his bat in his hand while yelling at Clemens. The bullpen guy was wrong for rooting for the Sox with such a passion as to cause a scene.

 

Zimmer was wrong for charging an active player on the other team. Nelson was wrong for getting involved with a non-player that was cheering for the other team. Garcia was wrong for jumping into the bullpen to get involved in something that he didn't need to.

 

And, has been said before, Pedro and Posada were both pointing at their heads saying "this will be remembered".

[Dr. Tom 0]

From someone who doesn't really care about either team:

 

- Pedro was obviously throwing at Garcia's head. He has a history of doing this, so it should be no surprise that he'd do it in a playoff game where he wasn't pitching well.

 

- Clemens, who's also been known to throw at people, would have drilled Manny right in the noggin if he were trying to hit him. Manny was timid at the plate the entire at-bat (Harold Reynolds broke that down nicely), constantly looking for a ball to come flying at his head. One came somewhere near it, and he kirked. Never mind that the ball was borderline over the plate; Manny overreacted to a farcical degree.

 

- I don't think Pedro really wanted to tangle with Zimmer, but when Zim came running at him, Pedro simply tossed him aside. He didn't do it hard, but considering Zim was running at him, and that his balance probably isn't what it was, it wouldn't take much force to send him to the ground.

 

- Personally, seeing Zim spiral to the ground is the funniest thing I've seen in baseball since Tommy Lasorda's backflip at the 2002 All-Star game.

 

- I agree with AoO that Nolan Ryan's headlock beatdown of Robin Ventura is a classic moment in the annals of the game.