Slayer 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Something ironic I think about... It's been documented on more than enough occasions about Vince's hoss love... But in 1996, Vince got a man who the majority of smarks agree was a hoss who could actually work well and be entertaining... Vader. He started off strong, with a nice debut at RR'96, and then attacking "President" Gorilla Monsoon the next night on RAW to show he was the guy who took no shit, thus seemingly continuing his WCW monster character... but from there it went downhill real fast. So what happened? Doesn't Vince love pushing hosses to the moon? And the WCW home-grown reason doesn't seem to fit, since Paul Wight is a WCW-born wrestler too and he got a lot more chances/shots (including two short world title reigns) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Vader threw stiff shots-a-plenty at Michaels and didn't sell for Callaway and everybody knows those 2 at the time were in the top 5 of Vince's favorites. That's the only thing I can see Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 As much as I WANTED Vader to have a great and dominating career in WWF, just as he did in WCW when he first arived there, I knew that it wouldn't last. As strong as Vader was throughout his career in WCW, as great as he was, Hulk Hogan destroyed, DESTROYED the entire mystique of Big Van Vader, in a matter of minutes. That is quite possibly the only thing that I'll forever hold against Hulk Hogan. When Vader met Hulk Hogan, Vader's career in the USA was ended. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted October 18, 2003 WWF wasn't about the wrestling like the WCW was so I immediatly feared that Vader wouldn't do as well there. Looking back, I was right. The humongous size of the ring and bright lighting of the WWF also hurt Vader. Because the WWF ring was so big Vader didn't look as big in comparison to what he did in WCW (also the overall size of the wrestlers). The size of the ring would also hurt Vader's intensity in the ring somewhat. Vader just looked human in the WWF. The lighting hurt in the WWF because it made Vader look more wimpish. In WCW the lighting made him have a more "gruesome, gritty, fearsome" image. The WWF lighting just made everything look too polished and sophisicated which on the positive side can make you look like a top league but on the negative side it makes the wrestling seem too "family friendly". Vader's not "family friendly". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 I'm still pissed about SS that year. Vader should have won, damn it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 The explanations seem plausible (I too hated Hulk Hogan for that... and for a lot of other things too) BUT With the exception of the political play, it doesn't explain why the push was aborted. I mean, he certainly wouldn't have been the first relatively ineffective and unappealing (if that's what the perception was) hoss that Vince said "I'm gonna push him anyway because he's a hoss, dammit". I think a push would've worked out if done right, but that's just my opinion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Askewniverse Report post Posted October 18, 2003 As strong as Vader was throughout his career in WCW, as great as he was, Hulk Hogan destroyed, DESTROYED the entire mystique of Big Van Vader, in a matter of minutes. I agree. Vader's career, as well as mystique was destroyed after meeting Hogan. To be more specific, I think it was the moment that Hogan no-sold Vader's powerbomb at Clash of the Champions. Even the WWE isn't stupid enough to have someone no-sell the finisher of a top heel. I'm still pissed about SS that year. Vader should have won, damn it You're right, and not just in a "I wanted Vader to win" sort of way. From what I remember, Vader was scheduled to win the title at SummerSlam, but HBK didn't want to job. That's why we got that mess of a finish at SummerSlam. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Kliq happens Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buffybeast 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Like someone said, Vader was terribly stiff in the ring. He damn near killed Ken Shamrock in one of their matches and stiffed everyone he wrestled. Vince was still up the Kliq's ass so he didn't tolerate Vader's stiffness and inability to sell others' offense. On a minor note, I read Vader had a body odor problem. He didn't stink when I met him. But apparently his body and his gear stunk so badly that he would leave a stench behind in the ring after his matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 He damn near killed Ken Shamrock in one of their matches... Is that such a bad thing? </mildfacetiousness> Love the sig, BTW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Papacita 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 You're right, and not just in a "I wanted Vader to win" sort of way. From what I remember, Vader was scheduled to win the title at SummerSlam, but HBK didn't want to job. That's why we got that mess of a finish at SummerSlam. I don't agree with Michaels' supposed tantrum to get the finish overturned, but I think it would have been better for Shawn to win that match anyway. They had been building Vader as this unbeatable monster going into the PPV, and already pinned Shawn a month prior. Fans pretty much got the sense going in that he had Shawn's number, and it would've been a little anti-climatic if he beat him first time out...to me anyway. I'm sure someone else will disagree. As for his aborted push...he was supposed to get the title at Survivor Series from what I understand. I remember he got at least one more pinfall win over Michaels on a Raw a few weeks after Mind Games, then went on to face Sid for the #1 contendership spot at Buried Alive. I heard somewhere that he was supposed to win that match, but was injured sometime before. Apparently, he thought he could work through it, but Vince didn't wanna jeopardize the Survivor Series main event, and decided to go with Sid instead. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Sid Speaking of ineffective and unappealing hosses... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted October 18, 2003 Vader's stiffness and inability to sell others' offense. Uh...Vader could sell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Your Paragon of Virtue 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 As much as I WANTED Vader to have a great and dominating career in WWF, just as he did in WCW when he first arived there, I knew that it wouldn't last. As strong as Vader was throughout his career in WCW, as great as he was, Hulk Hogan destroyed, DESTROYED the entire mystique of Big Van Vader, in a matter of minutes. That is quite possibly the only thing that I'll forever hold against Hulk Hogan. When Vader met Hulk Hogan, Vader's career in the USA was ended. When I watched the WWF back than, I had no clue as to what Hulk was doing with Vader in WCW, and didn't care. When he had arrived, I just wanted to see him run through everyone on his way to the WWF Title. Didn't happen. The Hulk Hogan thing didn't ruin his credibility in the WWF in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dr. Wrestlingphysics Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Is it true he was called Big Van Vader because he had a big van? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Is it true he was called Big Van Vader because he had a big van? Yes. Yes it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Your Olympic Hero Report post Posted October 19, 2003 I'm still pissed about SS that year. Vader should have won, damn it I'm pissed about Superbrawl, Uncensored, and Bash at the Beach in 95. Vader should have won all three. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 He damn near killed Ken Shamrock When did this happen? I remember during Shamrock's WWF PPV debut match against Vader Shamrock didn't know how to pull his punches and gave Vader a busted nose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Papacita 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 He damn near killed Ken Shamrock When did this happen? I remember during Shamrock's WWF PPV debut match against Vader Shamrock didn't know how to pull his punches and gave Vader a busted nose. I'm not sure, but I think they fought in a non-televised match sometime in the fall of 97 (around the time of the I-C Title tournament probably), and Vader injured him somehow. On TV, I think it was explained by having him receive "internal injuries" during a match with Faarooq. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Boo_Bradley Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Vader had a shoulder injury when he signed, that's why he was suspended upon debuet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buffybeast 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Vader's stiffness and inability to sell others' offense. Uh...Vader could sell. He could sell but often times chose not to. He damn near killed Ken Shamrock When did this happen? I remember during Shamrock's WWF PPV debut match against Vader Shamrock didn't know how to pull his punches and gave Vader a busted nose I recall seeing a Vader/Shamrock ppv match in the spring of 96 (I'm not sure about this) and Vader was extremely stiff. Shamrock finally retaliated and stiffed Vader pretty hard and I think busted his nose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Papacita 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 He damn near killed Ken Shamrock When did this happen? I remember during Shamrock's WWF PPV debut match against Vader Shamrock didn't know how to pull his punches and gave Vader a busted nose I recall seeing a Vader/Shamrock ppv match in the spring of 96 (I'm not sure about this) and Vader was extremely stiff. Shamrock finally retaliated and stiffed Vader pretty hard and I think busted his nose. That was Shamrock's debut match at...Cold Day in Hell in May 97. After I posted that last night, I looked up Teke's review of Shamrock's shoot interview for more info. Apparently, it was in a match between the two in FMW where Vader powerbombed him a few times and made him cough up blood, and Shamrock had to take some time off as a result. I *think* this coincides with the match with Faarooq that I mentioned earlier (Faarooq gave him a spinebuster or something, and blood began coming out of his mouth afterwards), but I'm not sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 As much as I WANTED Vader to have a great and dominating career in WWF, just as he did in WCW when he first arived there, I knew that it wouldn't last. As strong as Vader was throughout his career in WCW, as great as he was, Hulk Hogan destroyed, DESTROYED the entire mystique of Big Van Vader, in a matter of minutes. That is quite possibly the only thing that I'll forever hold against Hulk Hogan. When Vader met Hulk Hogan, Vader's career in the USA was ended. When I watched the WWF back than, I had no clue as to what Hulk was doing with Vader in WCW, and didn't care. When he had arrived, I just wanted to see him run through everyone on his way to the WWF Title. Didn't happen. The Hulk Hogan thing didn't ruin his credibility in the WWF in my opinion. That's because, as you said, you never watched WCW to see what took place. For fans of both, especially the markish fans, Vader's cred was lost as soon as he met Hogan. It was fucked up, and I'll never forgive Hogan for that one thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Your Paragon of Virtue 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 As much as I WANTED Vader to have a great and dominating career in WWF, just as he did in WCW when he first arived there, I knew that it wouldn't last. As strong as Vader was throughout his career in WCW, as great as he was, Hulk Hogan destroyed, DESTROYED the entire mystique of Big Van Vader, in a matter of minutes. That is quite possibly the only thing that I'll forever hold against Hulk Hogan. When Vader met Hulk Hogan, Vader's career in the USA was ended. When I watched the WWF back than, I had no clue as to what Hulk was doing with Vader in WCW, and didn't care. When he had arrived, I just wanted to see him run through everyone on his way to the WWF Title. Didn't happen. The Hulk Hogan thing didn't ruin his credibility in the WWF in my opinion. That's because, as you said, you never watched WCW to see what took place. For fans of both, especially the markish fans, Vader's cred was lost as soon as he met Hogan. It was fucked up, and I'll never forgive Hogan for that one thing. I assumed that most fans didn't watch both, as that was the time period when people were felt allegiance to one particular promotion, so to speak. I think most of you have the injury thing wrong; it was Ken who was too intense with the Ankle Lock, causing him to break, or sprain, Vader's ankle. I believe that's the accepted story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Highland 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2003 The final nail in the coffin was Vader's pinfall loss to Bradshaw via a weak neckbreaker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cawthon777 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2003 After I posted that last night, I looked up Teke's review of Shamrock's shoot interview for more info. Apparently, it was in a match between the two in FMW where Vader powerbombed him a few times and made him cough up blood, and Shamrock had to take some time off as a result. I *think* this coincides with the match with Faarooq that I mentioned earlier (Faarooq gave him a spinebuster or something, and blood began coming out of his mouth afterwards), but I'm not sure. Just a little more info on the Vader / Shamrock situation... WWF @ Muncie, IN - September 9, 1997 Raw is War taping: WWF IC Championship Tournament Quarter Finals: Ken Shamrock pinned Farooq at 2:42 with a belly to belly suplex; during the contest, Shamrock began bleeding from the mouth following a spinebuster; after the match, the Legion of Doom made the save for Shamrock against the Nation FMW @ Kawasaki, Japan - Kawasaki Stadium - September 28, 1997 Ken Shamrock (WWF) fought Vader (WWF) to a no contest at 7:17 in an Ultimate Rules Match In Your House "Badd Blood" - St. Louis, MO - Kiel Center - October 5, 1997 Rocky Miavia, D-Lo Brown, & Kama defeated the Legion of Doom in a handicap match at 12:19 when Miavia pinned Road Warrior Hawk with the Rock Bottom following a kick to the back of the head by Kama after Farooq's appearance at ringside prevented the Doomsday Device; Ken Shamrock was to have teamed with the LOD but was put on the shelf following bouts with Farooq (9/9) and Vader (9/28) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted October 24, 2003 The final nail in the coffin was Vader's pinfall loss to Bradshaw via a weak neckbreaker. I remember that. The WWF must have thought Bradshaw was the next Stan Hansen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace309 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 I thought the depush was due, at least in part, to Vader refusing to lose weight and improve his mobility. I don't remember where I heard this, but it's always sort of been my accepted story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PhantMan Report post Posted October 25, 2003 the weight issue is bullshit in my opinion. a slim vader is simply no vader, kinda like hogan in '93. the fact of the matter is that leon should have been pushed like a monster heel from the beginning. he should have killed moonson, raped sunny live on raw and, on top of that, powerbombed shawn 3 times in a row to stick his smile up his ass for good. the hogan episode did his damage, but can you blame wcw for attacking the belt on hogan with super strong glue? wcw waited its entire existence for hulk. yet, the way vader jobbed the belt to flair at starrcade'93 was a classier one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2003 powerbombed shawn 3 times in a row to stick his smile up his ass for good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
