Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Michaels vs. HHH at Armeggedon was one of the worst matches of the year. Fucking rank.

 

RVD is shat. Even RVD marks admit that he is a crappy worker.

[Downhome 0]

It does heh.  It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile.  It means he's doing his job.  It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

It can, and it has before. I'm not saying RVD has ever singlehandedly ruined a match, but at certain moments in a match if someone no-sells certain spots, it CAN destroy a match.

 

More like he entertains EVERYBODY.  I didn't use the word me.

 

I personally know quite a few people who can't stand RVD, thus his not entertaining them. Not everyone likes RVD, that's just how it is.

 

It does heh.  It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile.  It means he's doing his job.  It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

 

Just because people get excited over a match that has a few spots in it, does NOT mean they are a great wrestler, it doesn't even mean that whoever it is, is a GOOD wrestler.

 

I've gotten excited in matches over someone that I don't really care for that much, someone who isn't a good wrestler, blah blah blah.

 

RVD is more than worthwhile and worth a posistion in the company. The thing is however, that I do not look at him as a World Champ. He has plenty of faults that MUST be dealt with before he ever gets a run. The first being, he MUST turn heel eventually, it's vital to his career in terms of climbing the ladder of WWE.

 

I'd use RVD, but he himself needs to work on a few areas of his work that we currently see in WWE. I've seen him have great matches, but it hasn't been in a while now. All of the blame can't be placed on him right now also, I know he's being limited a bit, etc...

[chaosrage 0]

I've gotten excited in matches over someone that I don't really care for that much, someone who isn't a good wrestler, blah blah blah.

The thing is it's not only one time. It's every week. It's not as strong of a reaction every week, but if you look at each Raw thread you see most people saying that they're only watching because of RVD or Jericho.

 

I'd use RVD, but he himself needs to work on a few areas of his work that we currently see in WWE. I've seen him have great matches, but it hasn't been in a while now. All of the blame can't be placed on him right now also, I know he's being limited a bit, etc...

 

You didn't think the ladder match was good? That was just a couple of weeks ago.

[Downhome 0]

You didn't think the ladder match was good? That was just a couple of weeks ago.

The ladder match was an entertaining gimmick match.

[Guest Ray]

I thought it was fucking great considering it was his first match back after years of not being in the ring.

 

Not a ***** classic, but it was still entertaining to me.

I hated it personally. Something's definitely wrong when 2002 Triple H outperforms his opponent.

 

Just you.

Yes. I am the only person in the ENTIRE WORLD who doesn't love RVD. Of course.

 

No, stick to the US.

Why? Wrestling is wrestling. Want a US cruiser who can sell? Mysterio can. Noble can. Malenko could. Benoit and Guerrero (they wrestled as cruisers, you know...) can.

 

Point is everybody excuses most cruiserweight wrestlers and calls them good.

If ANY wrestler no-sells as much as Van Dam, I'll not excuse them.

 

No-selling a few times doesn't destroy a match.

No-selling CONSTANTLY, combined with AWFUL PSYCHOLOGY, TRANSITIONS AND STRIKING MOVES does.

 

More like he entertains EVERYBODY. I didn't use the word me.

Doesn't entertain me, therefore use of the word "everybody" is incorrect.

 

It does heh. It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile. It means he's doing his job. It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

None of that makes him a good wrestler.

 

It does heh.  It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile.  It means he's doing his job.  It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

 

It can, and it has before. I'm not saying RVD has ever singlehandedly ruined a match, but at certain moments in a match if someone no-sells certain spots, it CAN destroy a match.

 

More like he entertains EVERYBODY.  I didn't use the word me

 

I personally know quite a few people who can't stand RVD, thus his not entertaining them. Not everyone likes RVD, that's just how it is.

 

It does heh.  It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile.  It means he's doing his job.  It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

 

Just because people get excited over a match that has a few spots in it, does NOT mean they are a great wrestler, it doesn't even mean that whoever it is, is a GOOD wrestler.

 

I've gotten excited in matches over someone that I don't really care for that much, someone who isn't a good wrestler, blah blah blah.

 

RVD is more than worthwhile and worth a posistion in the company. The thing is however, that I do not look at him as a World Champ. He has plenty of faults that MUST be dealt with before he ever gets a run. The first being, he MUST turn heel eventually, it's vital to his career in terms of climbing the ladder of WWE.

 

I'd use RVD, but he himself needs to work on a few areas of his work that we currently see in WWE. I've seen him have great matches, but it hasn't been in a while now. All of the blame can't be placed on him right now also, I know he's being limited a bit, etc...

Damn you Downhome! Your sensible posts make my angry rants look bad.

[Downhome 0]

Damn you Downhome! Your sensible posts make my angry rants look bad.

I try.

 

You need to edit that huge quote of me though, the first part of it is what he said, not me.

[razazteca 0]

RVD is shat. Even RVD marks admit that he is a crappy worker

RVD is not perfect but can be very entertaining.

[chaosrage 0]

Yes. I am the only person in the ENTIRE WORLD who doesn't love RVD. Of course.

 

No I mean you're just giving me your own opinion. Which you said doesn't mean anything. I'm not arguing you. If you want to look it at it objectively, the only way to look at it is if they're entertaining or not. Why? Because that's what they're attempting to do. You don't like spotfests, alright, other people do. It's just a different style. Did you hate the TLC matches? It doesn't matter. I hate Bret/Bulldog from Summerslam 92. I have reasons for it, but when it comes down to it, those reasons don't matter to everyone else that loves it. So I couldn't try to call it objectively a bad match and say all of their opinions don't matter unless I was just really arrogant. That's what you're trying to do for RVD. You're somehow stupid enough to think it reflects on everybody else because you don't like him. Well guess what? It doesn't.

 

Why?

 

Because I haven't seen any Japanese wrestling.

 

Wrestling is wrestling. Want a US cruiser who can sell? Mysterio can. Noble can. Malenko could. Benoit and Guerrero (they wrestled as cruisers, you know...) can.

 

Mysterio can now but he couldn't when he was in WCW. Did people call him a bad wrestler for it? No. I'm totally not getting in that again though. You'll just have to check a few days ago in the General Wrestling board.

 

If ANY wrestler no-sells as much as Van Dam, I'll not excuse them.

 

Good for you.

 

No-selling CONSTANTLY, combined with AWFUL PSYCHOLOGY, TRANSITIONS AND STRIKING MOVES does.

 

It doesn't either obviously. Look at the reaction for the ladder match on this board again.

 

Doesn't entertain me, therefore use of the word "everybody" is incorrect.

 

How's about majority?

 

None of that makes him a good wrestler.

 

I think it does. Would you fire someone who put on matches every week like the ladder match? Matches that entertain the hell out of just about everybody but you personally don't like them?

[The Mandarin 0]

Shawn Michaels: Most. Overrated.Wrestler. Ever.

I'll agree with you there, I've never understood most of the praise for the man.

 

Maybe it's the girly tights.

 

..

I've never seen him have a bad match. Sid, Undertaker, freakin King Kong Bundy, Mark Henry, the new HHH, against anybody.... It's always at least okay.

Woah, I didn't know we were calling him a bad wrestler, I just thought he was overrated.

 

He's certainly not the best wrestler of the decade, as a few people claim, but the man is not a bad wrestler. He's perfectly fine, I prefer him to most of the roster nowadays.

 

But I just don't understand why he gets such AMAZING praise, usually reserved for some of the best wrestlers of all-time. I don't find him as good as someone like Hart or Austin or even Rob Van Dam.

 

JR: And that's your story, and I'm sure you're stickin' to it!

 

How the hell did you get in?

 

JR: Climbed through the window.

[Guest Basswitch]

Flair is not the greatest wrestler IMO.

 

But he is one of the greatests workers. He had something about him. It was easy to believe that he really lived the high profile life he claimed to. He also could turn any piece of crap match into a great one.

 

I mean, hell, He survived a plan crash too.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Actually, I take back what I said. Kurt Angle is the most overrated wrestler ever. Shawn is second.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Michaels vs. HHH at Armeggedon was one of the worst matches of the year. Fucking rank.

 

RVD is shat. Even RVD marks admit that he is a crappy worker.

Im always slagged for liking that match.

 

Everyone seems to hate it

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Dude, it was awful. Painfully awful. What did you like about it?

[Downhome 0]

Dude, it was awful. Painfully awful. What did you like about it?

I didn't care for the match itself, I simply enjoyed the story of the match. In THAT respect, I thought that it was very good.

[The Mandarin 0]

Michaels vs. HHH at Armeggedon was one of the worst matches of the year. Fucking rank.

Eh, I don't really agree with that. It wasn't the best main event of the year, but for what it was, I was pretty entertained by it.

 

And I'm sure there are lots of Heat squashes and hoss vs. hoss matches that would place lower than it.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Dude, it was awful. Painfully awful. What did you like about it?

I like spotty matches, and I thought the match was kinda spotty.

 

I know most people call it awful, but I liked it.

 

I'm not trying to be all 'I wanna be different'.

[Guest MikeSC]

Jumbo too....don't know how that slipped...maybe it is my intense dislike of wrestling that I have been feeling for the past couple of days.

 

Oh and to the guy who said Sting in his prime wasn't as good as Austin...

 

Sting vs. Vader (7/12/92, 12/27/92, and 2/21/93).

 

I'd put Austin's best against any of those.

 

Survivor Series....haven;t seen in quite a while.  Possibly...

 

The WM match versus Hart has Austin bleeding but not adding to the match as much as Sting contributed in all three matches.

 

Mania 17 was an outstandingly FUN match, but not MOTYC level of the Sting/Vader series.

 

WHOA!

 

Whoa!

 

You can't possibly be arguing that STING was EVER better than Austin.

 

Sting's best is not in the same ballpark as, say, Austin v Steamboat, Austin v Bret, Austin v Rock, Austin v HHH --- heck, I'd put Austin v Johnny B. Badd over almost ALL of Sting's work.

 

Sting had the occasional great match --- but few men have so consistently churned out crap as has he. Sting v Vampiro, EVERY Sting v Muta match post-GAB '89, Sting v Luger (any of them)... crap-o-rama.

 

And the Benoit Smackdown match....nope, if just because the Raw match was better and that match doesn't come close to Vader/Sting.

 

This is an opinion and you're free to it.

 

But Sting, on his best day, doesn't approach Austin.

[Guest MikeSC]

Bullshit. He doesn't entertain me.

 

Just you.

 

Throw me in that list as well. RVD doesn't do a thing for me.

 

Whoa! Look at the excuses fly. He forgets to sell CONSTANTLY. Every cruiserweight no-sells everything? You've never seen a Jushin Liger or Shinjiro Ohtani match I guess. And other wrestlers no-selling does not make it OK for RVD to do it.

 

No, stick to the US. Point is everybody excuses most cruiserweight wrestlers and calls them good. No-selling a few times doesn't destroy a match.

 

When the no-selling is simply one guy having a total inability to actually tell a story in the ring, it gets old. And that he never really seems to avoid it in a match is a problem.

 

Here we go again. "He entertains me so he must be good!!1" is the weakest argument. If Nathan Jones entertained me, would that make him a good wrestler? HELL NO.

 

More like he entertains EVERYBODY. I didn't use the word me.

 

There are two guys in this string alone he doesn't entertain.

 

Hint: YOU are not the world.

 

Yeah, a bunch of people blowing their load over some ladder spots = good wrestler.

 

It does heh. It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile. It means he's doing his job. It means most people, including this board, want to see him.

 

Judging by ratings and attendance, not that many people want to see him.

-=Mike

[humongous2002 0]

Flair is a good wrestler, but once you see a Flair match, you seen them all.

[Guest Ray]

No I mean you're just giving me your own opinion. Which you said doesn't mean anything. I'm not arguing you. If you want to look it at it objectively, the only way to look at it is if they're entertaining or not. Why? Because that's what they're attempting to do. You don't like spotfests, alright, other people do. It's just a different style. Did you hate the TLC matches? It doesn't matter. I hate Bret/Bulldog from Summerslam 92. I have reasons for it, but when it comes down to it, those reasons don't matter to everyone else that loves it. So I couldn't try to call it objectively a bad match and say all of their opinions don't matter unless I was just really arrogant. That's what you're trying to do for RVD. You're somehow stupid enough to think it reflects on everybody else because you don't like him. Well guess what? It doesn't

You still don't get it.

 

Mysterio can now but he couldn't when he was in WCW. Did people call him a bad wrestler for it? No. I'm totally not getting in that again though.  You'll just have to check a few days ago in the General Wrestling board.

So you're admitting that cruiserweights DO sell?

 

It doesn't either obviously. Look at the reaction for the ladder match on this board again.

Their reactions don't make it a good match.

 

How's about majority?

If the majority of people thought Hitler was a good guy, would that make it true?

 

I think it does. Would you fire someone who put on matches every week like the ladder match? Matches that entertain the hell out of just about everybody but you personally don't like them?

You still don't get it. It's not a matter of "liking" him. Whether I like him or not is irrelevant. He is objectively NOT a good wrestler.

[chaosrage 0]

No I mean you're just giving me your own opinion. Which you said doesn't mean anything. I'm not arguing you. If you want to look it at it objectively, the only way to look at it is if they're entertaining or not. Why? Because that's what they're attempting to do. You don't like spotfests, alright, other people do. It's just a different style. Did you hate the TLC matches? It doesn't matter. I hate Bret/Bulldog from Summerslam 92. I have reasons for it, but when it comes down to it, those reasons don't matter to everyone else that loves it. So I couldn't try to call it objectively a bad match and say all of their opinions don't matter unless I was just really arrogant. That's what you're trying to do for RVD. You're somehow stupid enough to think it reflects on everybody else because you don't like him. Well guess what? It doesn't

You still don't get it.

No, you don't get it. Great argument by the way.

 

So you're admitting that cruiserweights DO sell?

 

He didn't sell and people still called him a good wrestler in case you missed that point.

 

Their reactions don't make it a good match.

 

They're reacting because it is a good match.

 

If the majority of people thought Hitler was a good guy, would that make it true?

 

Um, Hitler's job was to lead, a wrestler's job is to entertain people. Nice try though.

 

You still don't get it. It's not a matter of "liking" him. Whether I like him or not is irrelevant. He is objectively NOT a good wrestler

 

Answer the question. Would you fire him? If you wouldn't, then he's a good wrestler. If you would, then you're just an idiot, heh.

 

And I know something to do with Hogan is coming up, so I'll say Hogan is a good character. People cheer for him because of his personality. RVD doesn't really have a personality. All he has is what he does in the ring.

[Guest Ray]

No, you don't get it. Great argument by the way.

yes. It was a great argument. Thanks for telling me.

 

You still don't understand the difference between something being objectively good and liking something. If a film has giant holes in the plot, complete lack of logic, terrible editing, poorly delivered dialogue, etc... it can be said that it is objectively bad, REGARDLESS of how much one "likes" it.

 

If you think everything is subjective, then you just suck at analysis.

 

He didn't sell and people still called him a good wrestler in case you missed that point.

Start naming matches which were called good, where he no-sells like Van Dam.

 

They're reacting because it is a good match.

WRONG. They're reacting because they saw some spots. That does not make it a good match.

 

Um, Hitler's job was to lead, a wrestler's job is to entertain people. Nice try though

And here we go again. "He entertains me so he must be good" is a load of crap. A wrestler's job is to draw money, by the way. We're not debating what a wrestler's job is.

 

Answer the question. Would you fire him?

No, because certain people like him. Those people have money to spend. Still doesn't make him a good wrestler.

 

If you wouldn't, then he's a good wrestler.

Which shows that you don't understand the difference between drawing money and having good matches.

 

And I know something to do with Hogan is coming up, so I'll say Hogan is a good character. People cheer for him because of his personality.

But according to YOU, if he "entertains" people, then he must be a good wrestler.

 

RVD doesn't really have a personality. All he has is what he does in the ring.

And what he does in the ring, is shit.

[chaosrage 0]

I know most people call it awful, but I liked it.

 

I'm not trying to be all 'I wanna be different'.

This board really needs as many different people as it can get. Everybody's starting to blend in together. I'm not doing it on purpose but I kinda find myself not paying attention to names that much anymore. It wasn't like that months ago.

[chaosrage 0]

You still don't understand the difference between something being objectively good and liking something. If a film has giant holes in the plot, complete lack of logic, terrible editing, poorly delivered dialogue, etc... it can be said that it is objectively bad, REGARDLESS of how much one "likes" it.

A filmmaker's goal isn't to get the loudest reaction. Or even put together the most entertaining film. It's to make the story believable and make the audience connect with the characters. Although in a comedy, I'd say the goal is to get the most laughs and giant holes in the plot, lack of logic, and terrible editing doesn't matter one bit.

 

If you think everything is subjective, then you just suck at analysis.

 

I don't think THIS is subjective. I'm saying it doesn't matter if you don't like him. Objectively, he's a good wrestler.

 

Start naming matches which were called good, where he no-sells like Van Dam.

 

Rey/Juvi, any of them in WCW.

 

WRONG. They're reacting because they saw some spots. That does not make it a good match.

 

Dude, it's a SPOTFEST. Because you personally don't like them doesn't make them bad. It's a different type of match going for totally different things. Once again, did you like TLC?

 

And here we go again. "He entertains me so he must be good" is a load of crap. A wrestler's job is to draw money, by the way. We're not debating what a wrestler's job is.

 

For the second time, I've never said the word "me" or "I". Try to keep up. How does a wrestler draw money? Oh, by doing his job and being entertaining you say? That's what I thought. Sports Entertainment... and no Vince McMahon didn't invent it.

 

No, because certain people like him. Those people have money to spend. Still doesn't make him a good wrestler.

 

If he wasn't GOOD at doing his job, you wouldn't want to keep him. Maybe the problem is you don't understand what the job is...

 

Which shows that you don't understand the difference between drawing money and having good matches.

 

I showed I did with Hogan. People are a draw either because of their character or their ringwork. Or in some cases both. And unless you're going to defend RVD's character and his mic skills, you better quit before this gets ugly.

 

But according to YOU, if he "entertains" people, then he must be a good wrestler.

 

That's why I explained it in the line right below it. This was all supposed to be one point. Stop splitting everything up. According to me, if he entertains people with ringwork, he's a good wrestler. People cheer for Hogan because they're entertained by his gimmick. There's a bit of a difference. Hell, you can't even turn RVD heel. Because his gimmick is irrelevant.

 

And what he does in the ring, is shit.

 

Which is your opinion and doesn't mean shit to me.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

I don't think THIS is subjective. I'm saying it doesn't matter if you don't like him. Objectively, he's a good wrestler.

 

So if Ray doesn't like him it doesn't make him a bad wrestler yet if you do like him it DOES make him a good wrestler

 

Glad we cleared THAT one up

 

Rey/Juvi, any of them in WCW.

 

Want to get anymore specific? find me a Rey match where his selling is as bad as RVD's was at Summerslam last year

 

For the second time, I've never said the word "me" or "I". Try to keep up. How does a wrestler draw money? Oh, by doing his job and being entertaining you say? That's what I thought. Sports Entertainment... and no Vince McMahon didn't invent it.

 

So why have ratings gone down on shows RVD main evented?

 

That's why I explained it in the line right below it. This was all supposed to be one point. Stop splitting everything up. According to me, if he entertains people with ringwork, he's a good wrestler. People cheer for Hogan because they're entertained by his gimmick. There's a bit of a difference. Hell, you can't even turn RVD heel. Because his gimmick is irrelevant.

 

So people never cheer during Hogans matches or enjoy the Hulk up?

[4hartthreat 0]

Glad to see this thread has stayed so on topic.....

 

Anyway, back to the original point of this thread. Do I think Flair is the best wrestler ever? No. Up there, but not the absolute best. Is he the best worker ever? Absolutely. No one can pull people into a match either before it or during it like the Nature Boy. And most wrestlers will tell you that themselves, from the likes of HHH and HBK to people that don't even personally like him like Hogan and Foley.

 

Austin is good, but not nearly as good as you people make him out to be.

 

The Bret-Shawn Ironman is a CLASSIC. Fantastic match.

 

And yes, RVD does suck.

[Guest Ray]

The Bret-Shawn Ironman is a CLASSIC. Fantastic match.

Oh no it is not.

 

Awful selling...pointless simplistic matwork that led nowhere...restholds everywhere...no falls in an hour...stupid sudden death finish.

 

Most overrated match *ever*.

 

 

Bret-Shawn Survivor Series 1992 >>>>>>>>>> Bret-Shawn Iron Man

[Guest BionicRedneck]

What exactly makes the Iron Man match a "CLASSIC"?

[Downhome 0]

The Bret-Shawn Ironman is a CLASSIC. Fantastic match.

Oh no it is not.

 

Awful selling...pointless simplistic matwork that led nowhere...restholds everywhere...no falls in an hour...stupid sudden death finish.

 

Most overrated match *ever*.

I've never agreed with you more than I do about this.

 

It's also my pick for the MOST OVERRATED MATCH EVER. I really can't hardly stand it, there are so many flaws in the match it's not even funny.

 

I fucking wish they just booked a one on one match between the two. They could have booked it so that it LOOKED like Bret won the match, but Shawn just BARELY was able to hold on. Then They could book the, what could've been, classic finish where HBK finally reaches the top of the mountain.

 

I mean, think about it. Had it just been a simple one on one match, yet went for a long time which is not what fans are used to, would that not have had people more so on the edge of their seat? Toss in a bunch of near falls, and it could've been a magic encounter.

[4hartthreat 0]

The Ironman match IS a classic.

 

The selling is not THAT bad. Is it the best job of selling ever? No, but it doesn't have to be.

 

I don't even know what "pointless" mat work you are speaking of.

 

And the rest hold thing is what gets me the most, well that and the no falls thing. They were going an hour! Going into the match they knew they were going an hour. So of course they were going to use rest holds to not only conserve their own energy, but also to wear down the other guy. And the no falls thing was one of the BEST things about the match. It was the main event of WM, the biggest show of the year. The title meant everything to Bret, it was his life. It was Shawn's dream to win it and to do so he had to go through Bret. So that belt meant so much to both guys, and they both didn't want to lose the first fall because it meant they'd be playing catch up from there. So both guys fought their asses off to not lose that first and as even the announcers constantly pointed out crucial fall.

 

The one thing I do agree with you on is the overtime. I don't think it made any sense and still don't like that it happened. But that being said it didn't take away from the match, in fact it kind of added to it. Going back to the how much the title meant to both guys thing, it took two superkicks to keep Bret down, because he did not want to lose his title on the biggest show of the year.

 

SS 92 better than WM12? Not just no, OH HELL NO.