the max 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 cartman, as much as Nomar has given the team, A-Rod gives it more by being a defensive and offensive upgrade. I understand that Nomar WANTS to stay in Boston, but me as a fan sees and hears him saying that, and then turning down two very lucrative (12 million dollars a year is certainly nothing to sneeze at) contracts to stay where he wants to stay for at least four more years. What I see Nomar being to the team is gritty, tries hard, and fails to win the big one. That's not what I want representing my team. And I'm soured on him because he's talking big and great about "wanting to stay in Boston" and then turning down two contracts which would have allowed him to do so. If you want to stay, sign and stay. If not, you need to understand that the team needs to improve. And if you have shown that you care about yourself more than the team, you are expendible. Period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 And what's the guarantee A-Rod would be as good when he's 35? It could go either way. Well, as another pointed out, A-Rod is two years younger. And A-Rod's contract runs out a little after he turns 36. Plus, A-Rod is a better player with a higher walk rates, which means he's a better bet for future success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 B.J. Surhoff declined the O's offer of arbitration. The O's have until Jan. 8 to sign him. The Braves signed Antonio Alfonseca to a one year contract. Alfonseca is generally criticized, but he's not a BAD pitcher. He's better than Roberto Hernandez and Jose Mesa at the least. He shouldn't close, but he could be effective as a middle reliever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Nomar turned down a 4 year $60mill deal, then with the market correction a 4 year $48mill deal followed by a 4 year $51mill deal. Nomar wants to stay in Boston...IF HE GETS PAID WHAT HE WANTS. Manny didn't wait till he was put on waivers to say he wanted to go to the Yanks either, he said so in the middle of a coversation with Joe Morgan which was intended to stay private. Manny is a one tool player getting paid $20mill a year, A-Rod is a 5 tool player getting paid $5mill more...not hard to figure out which you would want. What people don't realise is this is a bussiness, Nomar knows that though and he's trying to push the brass' hand to pay him more by using the fan's loyalty. Schilling took a discount for the better of the team and he never played a big league game for them...goes to show that Nomar is about Nomar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Report post Posted December 20, 2003 look at it this way. Player A wants to take a paycut to join your team Player B wants a raise to keep him from leaving your team who would you want? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 God damn I wish I or someone else had had the foresight to create an OAO A-Rod topic a couple of weeks ago. A little late now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 20, 2003 God damn I wish I or someone else had had the foresight to create an OAO A-Rod topic a couple of weeks ago. A little late now. Its going to be done soon. Newspaper article said a lawyer close to the discussions has hear they are now down to a $6mill difference between the two clubs...which is alot better than the $25mill that started it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Just as well. I'm tired of talking about it anyway. Hopefully the free agency talk heats up soon. Non-tender deadline is tomorrow, meaning teams can decline to offer contracts to players and make them free agents. Reports are that the Expos will let Orlando Hernandez go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Reports are that the Expos will let Orlando Hernandez go. Yup, he's already been non-tendered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Twins sign Henry Blanco! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 20, 2003 read through and take it for what you will. http://forums.redsoxnation.net/index.php?s...pic=132&st=4375 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2GOLD 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 look at it this way. Player A wants to take a paycut to join your team Player B wants a raise to keep him from leaving your team who would you want? Player B Cause I least I won't have to worry about re-signing Player B while Player A will demand a raise or a trade before the end of contract C. I'd rather have a loyal player who is still the second best in the game at his position and quite possibly might be the only man in baseball still capable of hitting .400 before the end of his career. Boston is setting themselves up for a one year run if they get A-Rod cause if they think A-Rod frees up money....yeah, that is plain nuts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Yea I wonder what the fans and media will be saying when Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and/or Mark Mulder becomes availible via free agency because Oaklsnd cannot afford them all... "YES WE CAN GET ZITO!!!!" "uhh, no, we can't" "Why not??? He's awesome!!!" "Well the team doesn't want to go over the luxury tax, and A-Rod takes up 1/5th of the payroll by himself..." "FUCK A-ROD, TRADE HIM NOW!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Doesn't the same situation apply to Manny Ramirez now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 No, Manny only costs Boston 20 Mil per year and his contract is shorter. A-Rod costs Boston 20 this year, 25 next, and 27 after that each year...and that's not counting the deferred money that they wil owe him between 2010-2020. I dunno about you but I could think of quite a few players that 5-7 million could help bring to boston, or keep here. Add that to the 11.5 Mil Nomar makes in his final year and next season Boston has some Flex in the market. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Well, Zito will stay in Oakland most likely. Hudson will be the one available. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Well, Zito will stay in Oakland most likely. Hudson will be the one available. It was hypothetical. Hudson is better anyways IMHO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Dunno, I'd rather have Schilling, who actually gets it done in the playoffs. And I don't know about you, but as a Red Sox fan, I don't go crazy when they don't sign the big free-agent that off-season. This is a trade that makes them a better team, so I want it to happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Report post Posted December 20, 2003 I'd rather have a loyal player who is still the second best in the game at his position and quite possibly might be the only man in baseball still capable of hitting .400 before the end of his career. ok I don't even know where to start with that paragraph. I think it's safe to say that if Boston gets A-Rod they won't be making any big name signings for a while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 Yea I wonder what the fans and media will be saying when Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and/or Mark Mulder becomes availible via free agency because Oaklsnd cannot afford them all... It's the A's...they won't sign any of them. Speaking of the A's they have until tonight to agree on a contract with Mark Redman or already say bye to him without getting anything for him. It doesn't seem likely that they will offer him arbitration. Aw the wonders of a cheap ass owner team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 20, 2003 By the time Hudson, Zito and Mulder are available some players will be off the books. Tim Wakefield would most likely be gone. Also we won't have a $3mill CFer making over $8mill by then too. Ramiro Mendoza would be gone. I know there are others. Its all irrelevant Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 It won't be until 2005 that even Hudson becomes a free agent. Zito and Mulder have another year after that. Rockies signed Jeromy Burnitz, and cut Jay Payton, Kit Pellow, and Scott Elarton. Payton is an interesting case, as he hit 28 home runs last year, albeit in Coors Field (15 were on the road though). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Kamala 0 Report post Posted December 20, 2003 It always boggles my mind on why the Rockies just say screw pitching and get a bunch of guys who can hit dingers and build their minor league system on pitching so they can get cheap, effective pitchers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 21, 2003 It always boggles my mind on why the Rockies just say screw pitching and get a bunch of guys who can hit dingers and build their minor league system on pitching so they can get cheap, effective pitchers. If you think that's stupid they're going to make Shawn Chacon their closer...the guy who was on pace to be a 20 game winner before injuries. All that thin air I tell ya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted December 21, 2003 Hopefully Miguel Tejada can pitch because the Orioles just non-tendered Jason Johnson and Damian Moss Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2003 I've got the O's rotation as..... Rodrigo Lopez Omar Daal Kurt Ainsworth Eric DuBose John Stephens Alot of youth in that rotation. Great potential, so their season could go either way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2003 A's non-tendered Frank Menechino, Jeremy Fikac, and Mark Redman. Menechino has been quite pedestrian the last two years, so no surprise there. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Red Sox take a look. He can play multiple positions, and he's got good plate disapline at the very least. Jeremy Fikac posted great numbers at AAA Sacramento. He could be a nice middle reliever next season. Mark Redman is quite the surprise, seeing how the A's just traded for him. He could make a nice 4/5 starter for a team needing a little insurance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2003 Indians non-tender Danys Baez and Carl Sadler. Sadler's questionable as a big leaguer, but Baez is quite decent, now that he's kept his walk totals down. The Phillies expressed interest previously, but I think they've moved on. Still, he'll land somewhere. Orlando Palmeiro declined arbitration, making him a free agent. He's got no power whatsoever. I wouldn't go out of my way to sign him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2003 Marvin Miller checks in on the A-Rod situation. Miller was the head of the Players' Association when they gained free agency. Miller weighs in on issue By Bud Collins, Globe Correspondent, 12/20/2003 LONGBOAT KEY, Fla. -- The trauma of Rodriguez Interruptus has reached all the way to this finger of sand off Sarasota, and a baseball wise man who shakes a disapproving finger at several of the players in the cast. ADVERTISEMENT But not the players of the game. "Rodriguez, Ramirez, Garciaparra, Ordonez, and perhaps others who might have been involved in trades, are innocent bystanders," Marvin Miller said. "It's not their fault that the administrators, right from the top -- Bud Selig -- didn't know the rules, or disregarded them. It could be hard on players to have to play where they know they're not wanted." Miller, the baseball labor leader who led players to pyramids of money, put teeth into the players' union during 17 years of outwitting the owners. He retired as executive director of the Players Association 20 years ago, but keeps an eye on the game and is sometimes consulted by the union -- though not in this case. "I can't believe most of the stuff I've read about this mess," he said with a laugh. "Some writers I otherwise respect don't know the rules. Nor do many of the `so-called experts' they're quoting. "I don't know Larry Lucchino. His quotes sound frustrated, and that's understandable. He has a good reputation. But hasn't he been around a long time? And he hasn't closely read contracts, the collective bargaining agreement, and the rules? Or his lawyers haven't?" Miller waves his soup spoon -- a gesture that says: "How in the world could this ever have happened?" Appropriately, considering the soup that everybody is left in, Miller is sipping a succulent asparagus veloute in one of Florida's finer restaurants, Jose Martinez's Maison Blanche. Between soup and chocolate mousse, he simply lays out the course of mistakes that caused the union to step in and reject "the reduction. Not restructuring. That word doesn't apply in this case. It was a reduction of Rodriguez's contract the Red Sox sought. Very plain, and that's against the rules. "Andy Pettitte accepted a reduction from Houston, which was legal because he was a free agent, having fulfilled his contract with the Yankees. Rodriguez is still under contract. "This should never have gotten started the way it did because the commissioner broke one of the oldest rules by permitting the Red Sox to talk to Rodriguez. That's tampering. That was a baseball rule installed by the owners long before the union existed. Selig had no authority to allow that exception. On the other side, the union was slow to pick up on it. That surprised me. There should have been no talks between the Red Sox and a player under contract. Period. "But eventually the union correctly did step in and point out the essential fact -- a contract is a contract," Miller said. "It doesn't mean that the Rodriguez-Ramirez trade couldn't be made. But it is elementary what a trade is: Team A trades Player A to Team B for Player B. Each team accepts the contract made by the other. Nothing can be reduced, whether or not the players agree to a reduction. Such things as performance bonuses, of course, may be added. In the case of Texas, apparently eager to get rid of Rodriguez, they could help the Red Sox by absorbing a portion of Rodriguez's salary, as long as he gets it in full. [George] Steinbrenner has done that on occasion, unloading somebody from the Yankees. "Scott Boras, Rodriguez's agent, should know better. If the deal had gone through, would he, have returned some of his commission?" Miller said with a smile. "When they think it over, I believe the Red Sox and other owners will -- silently, probably -- thank the union for its stand. If a contract lost its sanctity, the game would be destabilized." Miller is ready for a cappuccino, and looking forward to a game of tennis on the morrow beside the Gulf of Mexico. "All right, let's say Boston and Texas got away with the deal, pulled it off. The union would have filed a grievance. It would have gone to arbitration -- and killed right there by an arbitrator who knew the rules. "The pity is that the union didn't step up immediately and object to Selig's approval of what amounted to tampering by the Red Sox with Rodriguez. Rodriguez had no idea, but his quotes I've seen [yesterday] tell me he's honorable and thoughtful. He said he does `understand the principle,' and respects `the need to protect the rights of his fellow players.' " Suppose Selig had properly stayed out of it? He might have saved Our Olde Towne Team's faithful a lot of grief. Should he eat crow? I'll ask local chef Jose Martinez if it's on his menu. http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...hs_in_on_issue/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2GOLD 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2003 Don't be shocked if Baltimore makes a run at Redman as well to go along with Ponson who I know they want to get back in Baltimore. Jason Johnson, I'm kind of shocked by that move but he has been very inconsistent at times. Moss was a bust out of the gate and I knew he was gone, he did nothing to justify keeping him around. The O's are trying hard to get I-Rod, which isn't surprising with the young staff they have. They are hoping he can pull a Florida in Baltimore and if they get some offense like Vlad, they could pull it off. Personally, as much as I like I-Rod and always have, I'd rather have the smaller price tag of Lopez. Plus didn't Freddy Garcia get let loose as well? Balitmore seems to be one of the last teams with money to burn. The Red Sox are trying to burn all of their cash on A-Rod, George has went insane (well more so) in NY, and the Cubs just don't spend money to begin with. I think if they land Vlad and one of the two catchers, that they will grab Ponson if they can and another FA pitcher. If not, the young staff was impressive last year for a team that couldn't score. Assuming, they can land Vlad and one of the big name catchers, the O's would have a line-up of C: Lopez/I-Rod 1b: Jay Gibbons 2b: Hairston/Roberts SS: Miguel Tejada 3b: Assuming for now, Batista but I think he's gone LF: Mora CF: Matos RF: Vlad That's a good young line-up and they have some names on the bench they can use as well. I like the chances if they sign Vlad and one of those two catchers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
