MMA Herring, Bobish, etc

[Guest neodragonsan]

After the embarrassing showings by Yamamoto, Bobish, and (regrettably) Herring, what's left for them in MMA, let alone in Pride?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Herring will probably participate in the Heavyweight Grand Prix. I can see Pride bringing back Bobish for another shot, but he looked like a fucking pussy in this fight. If they haven't gotten rid of Yamamoto by now, they won't.

[Guest neodragonsan]

But basically the Bobish vs. Herring fight that they seemed to want to do is probably either off, or they're going to do something stupid (like making it a first round Heavyweight Grand Prix fight).

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Or they'll just put Big Daddy in against someone like Cro Cop and Herring against Fedor (~!).

[AboveAverage484 0]

I'd like to see the HW Grand Prix go like this:

 

Fedor

Ricco (UFC)

Cro Cop

Nog

Herring

Frye

Vovchanchyn

Coleman

 

Only thing is most of these guys have fought each other before. And Fujita being the only Japanese fighter at HW would eliminate somebody more deserving, which is sad.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I dissagree about Bobish in the Goodridge fight.

 

Most people predicted a quick KO for Garry, but the way he got the win was immoral. Bobish was clearly pointing at his eye and wanted nothing to do with Garry. Garry attacked anyway and got the cheap win. Garry should have backed off and let the doctors like Bobish's eye. A cheap win is a cheap win.

 

That's not to say that the refferee was blameless. If safety is a refferree's first priority, I doubt allowing fighter with an eye problem to be punched repeatedly in the face is helping his safety. The ref should have jumped in and stopped Garry from pummeling Bobish before the eye problem became far worse. That was bad officiating.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

So really, if I were put in a bad position in an MMA fight, all I would have to do is point to my eye and I'd be free from danger??

 

That's bullshit. Bobish was a pussy. When fighters get hurt they BLOCK and suck it up and DEAL with it, not act like they lost a contact.

 

"OH MY GOD! HE HIT ME! MY EYE! TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT!"

[the pinjockey 0]

But he wasn't really in a bad position when he started motioning to his eye. He starts when they are just regularly standing up, then starts to motion more intensely once Goodridge starts beating the shit out of him.

[AboveAverage484 0]

I thought he was verbally submitting from standing strikes, which I really haven't seen before.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It still stands - after the bell rings, you can't call time out. If you get injured, you're injured and you lose. The initiated contact, Gary hit Dan, Dan got hurt, Gary capitalized on it. That's what happens in fights; if they hesitate for too long their opponent might recover and end up winning the fight.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

So really, if I were put in a bad position in an MMA fight, all I would have to do is point to my eye and I'd be free from danger??

That's the idea. Usually when someone is injured to the point that they're not attempting to fight nor are they attempting to defend themselves, it's time for the ref to step in. Bobish wasn't even looking at Garry when he came at him. He was looking and yelling at the referee while pointing to his eye.

 

That's bullshit.  Bobish was a pussy.  When fighters get hurt they BLOCK and suck it up and DEAL with it, not act like they lost a contact.

 

Oh, I get it. So even if a fighter loses vision in his eye, he should just "suck it up and DEAL with it" because that's what fighters do. Would you have Bobish keep fighting if his eye had popped out like Vader's? Is that the type of thing we should expect fighters to deal with?

 

I have no idea what Bobish's injury actually was, or if it was an injury at all. However, I highly doubt that letting Goodridge light up his face helped the problem. It was great risk to Bobish's safety and shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

 

"OH MY GOD!  HE HIT ME!  MY EYE!  TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT!"

 

I know you would have rather seen Bobish ignore his injury and continue fighting until Garry finished him off, but in doing that he could be putting himself to serious risk of furthering his injury. Is it really smart for a fighter to keep fighting even if he has no chance of winning and only risks shortening his career and well-being further?

 

It's really not smart at all. But, we expect them to do it anyway, don't we?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

But he wasn't really in a bad position when he started motioning to his eye. He starts when they are just regularly standing up, then starts to motion more intensely once Goodridge starts beating the shit out of him.

*nod*

 

I forget to mention that as well. Bobish told the referee before Garry's second flurry of punches. It wasn't some kind of act he started to get out of danger of getting KOed.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I was about to post this when I noticed everyone responding to my first post so I decided to put it on the backburner until I had responded to their responses:

 

I'd like to see the HW Grand Prix go like this:

 

Fedor

Ricco (UFC)

Cro Cop

Nog

Herring

Frye

Vovchanchyn

Coleman

 

Only thing is most of these guys have fought each other before.  And Fujita being the only Japanese fighter at HW would eliminate somebody more deserving, which is sad.

 

I don't see the value of putting Igor in there. He's been used as cannon fodder too many times to deliver that purpose anymore. For heavyweight enhancement talent, Takayama is better. Takayama is good at being a punching bag, and yet to take on any of the top three heavyweights in Pride (Cro Cop, Nog, or Fedor). Including him would also help remedy the lack of natives you had. Pride needs native draws to keep fans coming, and Takayama's popularity should be utilized.

 

Here's how I'd structure it:

 

Frye

Cro Cop

 

Takayama

Nog

 

Fujita

Sapp

 

Fedor

Coleman

 

So, All in all, I axed Ricco, Heath, and Igor from your list and added Fujita, Sapp, and Takayama. Like I said, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Nog are the big three, so they can't be left out. I don't mind Frye being there because he's good fodder for Cro Cop due to his history with K1 fighters. Yes, Heath and Ricco are better fighters, but Heath hasn't looked that great recently, and Ricco doesn't have the status with the Japanese fans that Frye does, having only fought once in Pride since 2000.

 

Coleman has also been away for awhile, not fighting in Pride since 2001, but Coleman came back with a win against Frye and would also make a good opponent for Fedor because Fedor sited Coleman as his inspiration for fighting the way he does. I don't mind him staying either.

 

I gave the three remaining spots to "draws" because, as I said before, Pride needs them. Not only that, but I think Fujita is more worthy than Herring and Vovchanchyn based solely on his ability as a fighter. Watch Fujita's fights against Cro Cop and Fedor, and you'll see he did better against them than Herring did.

 

Sapp has had some trouble in K1, but his Pride record is still very good. He only has one loss, and that was a good run against champ Nogueira, so I think he can still be of use to Pride.

Edited November 12, 2003 by RickyChosyu

[the pinjockey 0]

Could they realistically make it a 16-man GP?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Could they realistically make it a 16-man GP?

They did in 2000. The question is, do they have enough credible heavyweight fighters to pull that off?

[the pinjockey 0]

That was more along the lines of what I was asking. I have only been getting these since Pride 26, so I really don't know if there are that many. I was just curious since you were already cutting people like Ricco and Herring even though, it seemed they would somewhat deserve a spot in the tourney, if they had enough for 16 to get them in.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

For 16 they would deffinitely get a spot. They were borderline picks that I decided to drop in favor of fighters who have a better chance of attracting crowds and, in Fujita's case, are more deserving, too.

 

If we add Herring and Ricco to the eight I came up with, that makes ten. Throw in Goodridge and Igor, and you've got twelve. Beyond that, it becomes a bit scetchy, but I'm sure they could dig up some heavies for the right price. Most MMA fighters, even those retired, probably wouldn't pass up an opportunity to fight again, for the right price.

 

So I guess I answered my own question there.

[the pinjockey 0]

By that point they may have a full on working relationship with the UFC so you could probably steal at least two from there for a 16 man tourney.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

That's the idea. Usually when someone is injured to the point that they're not attempting to fight nor are they attempting to defend themselves, it's time for the ref to step in. Bobish wasn't even looking at Garry when he came at him. He was looking and yelling at the referee while pointing to his eye.

 

But he could have defended himself. He was just looking for a "time out", when the ref didn't give it to him Goodridge advanced and Bobish looked confused.

 

Oh, I get it. So even if a fighter loses vision in his eye, he should just "suck it up and DEAL with it" because that's what fighters do. Would you have Bobish keep fighting if his eye had popped out like Vader's? Is that the type of thing we should expect fighters to deal with?

 

The damage to Vaders eye could have been clearly seen by the ref. This was just Bobish pointing to his eye. In Goodridges fight with Fedor, he was obviously injured and couldn't fight back - Fedor continued his assault until Gary fell to the ground and covered up. That's the universal sign for "I give up" - Bobish should have done that. He didn't. He wanted a time out.

 

I have no idea what Bobish's injury actually was, or if it was an injury at all. However, I highly doubt that letting Goodridge light up his face helped the problem. It was great risk to Bobish's safety and shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

 

"Great risk" oh my.

 

I know you would have rather seen Bobish ignore his injury and continue fighting until Garry finished him off, but in doing that he could be putting himself to serious risk of furthering his injury. Is it really smart for a fighter to keep fighting even if he has no chance of winning and only risks shortening his career and well-being further?

 

It's really not smart at all. But, we expect them to do it anyway, don't we?

 

Uh, yeah. They're fighters. They accept that risk when they step in the ring.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think they could do a 16 man tourny:

 

1. Herring

2. Fedor

3. Coleman

4. Nogueira

5. Cro Cop

6. Fujita

7. Takayama

8. Goodridge

9. Sapp

10. Ricco

11. Sylvia

12. Arlovski

13. Mir

14. Rizzo

15. Barnett

16. Frye/Igor/McGee/anyone

 

However, that would be 8 fights in one event - no superfights. Then 4, 2, 1 - 3 fights in one night. Not very practical - esp. with heavies..

 

Coleman

Fedor

Cro Cop

Nog

 

I think these 4 are guaranteed.

 

Fujita

Herring

Takayama

 

These 3 would be likely.

 

Sapp

Sylvia

Ricco

 

These are "Maybes"

[Guest RickyChosyu]

But he could have defended himself.  He was just looking for a "time out", when the ref didn't give it to him Goodridge advanced and Bobish looked confused.

 

A "time out" would have allowed someone to look at his eye. I can see this being used to allow a fighter time to recover, but I don't think Garry had that much of an advantage over Bobish before he began pointing to his eye. Garry landed a few shots and then they seperated. I don't think Bobish was trying to earn himself a cheap break from the punches.

 

The damage to Vaders eye could have been clearly seen by the ref.  This was just Bobish pointing to his eye.

 

There are all sorts of injuries (plenty of which involve the eye, I'm sure) that can't be clearly seen. If Bobish had injured the internal portion of his eye, I don't think anyone would be able to see it, but it could still endanger him.

 

In Goodridges fight with Fedor, he was obviously injured and couldn't fight back - Fedor continued his assault until Gary fell to the ground and covered up.  That's the universal sign for "I give up" - Bobish should have done that.  He didn't.  He wanted a time out.

 

He wanted someone to look at his eye, I think. He did fall down and cover up once Garry started punching him, but before that I don't see why he had to. He made it clear what the problem was.

 

"Great risk"  oh my.

 

You don't have to take Bobish's safety seriously, but he does. I wonder what you'd say if he actually did have a serious injury.

 

Uh, yeah.  They're fighters.  They accept that risk when they step in the ring.

 

Which means they should put themselves at even greater risk with no chance of winning?

 

They put themselves at risk for the chance to win. When that chance is lost, the reason to keep fighting is lost. If a fighter is injured, he has a right to stop. Bobish said he was injured, the ref should have let him stop fighting.

[Guest NCJ]

I have to agree with RRR on this. If he had an eye problem he shouldn't have got in the ring. If it got worse once he was in the ring he should have covered up or tapped out. You can't ask another fighter to just stop fighting without the referee coming in. Gary did what he had to do. I consider what Cro Crop did in his fights vs. Goodridge and Carsas much worse than Gary doing what he came to do.

[the pinjockey 0]

Oh, there is nothing wrong with what Gary did. It is the ref's decision on that stuff and until the ref says stop then you attack the weakness.

 

I was just under the impression that in previous Pride events they would stop and look at cuts, if necessary. If the cut is too bad then they stop the fight and award the win to the other guy.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It's hard to knock a fighter's judgement because they're not supposed to be responsible for the well being of the other fighters. They attack until someone tells them to stop. I admit that I was jumping to conclusions in blaming Garry.

 

The referee, on the other hand, is still at fault.