Randy Orton

[Guest Ghettoman]

MulletinoHeat I just don't see what the hell your saying.

 

Where does your gripe with him come from? Because the commentators do the right thing with him and not others? Thats enough to bitch about this 'major push' day in day out? He hasn't been put over anyone too important in overly convincing fashion, he gets air time because the WWE is trying to make him recognizable, and his skills are nowhere near the lower level crap that makes all this whining justified.

 

2GOLD, I got no problems with jokes as long as there funny. Negative exaggerations intended to push a point that's later abandoned are just dumb.

 

And Lex Luger?.....

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

MulletinoHeat I just don't see what the hell your saying.

 

Where does your gripe with him come from? Because the commentators do the right thing with him and not others?

When he's not that special to me, yes.

 

Thats enough to bitch about this 'major push' day in day out?

 

Are you confusing me with Anglesault?

 

He hasn't been put over anyone too important in overly convincing fashion

 

Making his gimmick a laugh, go on....

 

he gets air time because the WWE is trying to make him recognizable

 

Didn't say anything about the amount of airtime he gets.

 

his skills are nowhere near the lower level crap that makes all this whining justified.

 

Didn't say that his skills are at or near the lower level.

 

If you want to continue this you might want to actually draw from what I say, instead of bringing Anglesault's opinions into it.

[Guest Goodear]

I'm just syaing the whole future superstar stuff is an extension of the Evolution stable and thats why Orton and Batista get the BJs and the other cocky heels don't. If JR and King are all 'Well Flair and Triple H say these guys are good... but what a bunch of fucking liars huh fans? These guys BLOOOOOW!' the whole angle is blown.

 

Of course they should build up their workers through their words. Didn't say to the contrary.

 

Oh I know, I just thought that I should make it clear that I would be much happier if they built more people like they push Orton and Batista... but I don't hold it against those two that they get it from JR and King. I hold it against JR and King that they don't do it for everyone or at least more people.

 

Do you watch Velocity? Sean O'Haire has taken up permanent residence there yet he's constantly touted as 'the future'. It's laughable.

 

I don't watch Velocity but I see nothing wrong with trying to make sure fans don't look at a guy on that show as a totall jobber. 'Hey fans, this guy will be kicking Undertaker's ass in the years to come' makes you want to watch the guy more.

 

And why wouldn't you want it slapped on as many people? Two words: Billy Gunn.

 

Sadly you're talking to like one of three Billy Gunn fans in the world (I appreciate his tag work). But still... does that somehow damage the guy or others around him? Only if you seperately treat them as lessers... and thats where I see the seperate problem for the WWE.

 

It's not that Orton gets pushed too much, its that other peple don't get pushed enough. It's like giving Gilligan a balanced meal while the Skipper starves on the deserted island. Don't be mad at Gilligan... be mad at the guy handing out the grub.

[Guest Ghettoman]

So your problems with the WWE's shotty use of him, yet you direct it towards him? I'm just wondering why your even on that side of the arguement when you just seem to aimlessly be debating pretty much for nothing.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I'm just syaing the whole future superstar stuff is an extension of the Evolution stable and thats why Orton and Batista get the BJs and the other cocky heels don't. If JR and King are all 'Well Flair and Triple H say these guys are good... but what a bunch of fucking liars huh fans? These guys BLOOOOOW!' the whole angle is blown.

Then instead of dragging people down, how about going the other direction for a change? Yes, I know, I know, it's a crazy idea and totally against the status quo, but bear with me. By pretty much all accounts, Matt Hardy isn't any worse than Orton, and what's the most despicable thing he's done? Dump his girlfriend? Orton's RKOed a senior citizen, yet that doesn't stop JR.

 

I don't watch Velocity but I see nothing wrong with trying to make sure fans don't look at a guy on that show as a totall jobber.  'Hey fans, this guy will be kicking Undertaker's ass in the years to come' makes you want to watch the guy more.

 

Making sure a wrestler isn't perceived as a jobber and praising him as the future when he's been on a B show for half a year are two different things.

 

Sadly you're talking to like one of three Billy Gunn fans in the world (I appreciate his tag work).  But still... does that somehow damage the guy or others around him?

 

Gunn isn't damaged goods due to the aborted pushes and constant injuries? A-Train wasn't damaged by losing to him in a minute and a half? Cena in the US Title tourney? Chris Benoit wasn't damaged by jobbing to O'Haire last May?

 

It's not that Orton gets pushed too much, its that other peple don't get pushed enough.  It's like giving Gilligan a balanced meal while the Skipper starves on the deserted island.  Don't be mad at Gilligan... be mad at the guy handing out the grub.

 

Don't confuse anything I say as hostility towards Orton. Again, more confusion becuase of what AS always says.

[Guest Goodear]

Then instead of dragging people down, how about going the other direction for a change?

 

That's what I've been saying. Build up more people, not less... go team!

 

Making sure a wrestler isn't perceived as a jobber and praising him as the future when he's been on a B show for half a year are two different things.

 

Okay, although the future superstar thing is pretty much the easiest thing to do with a relatively young guy. Considering he's been on the B-show for so long when he pops back up on Smackdown or whatever (as most people seem to do outside of Kanyon), he'll be fresh and 'new' again except to all the folks watching Velocity who 'sawe him first.' Seems like we're sort of splitting hairs here though.

 

Gunn isn't damaged goods due to the aborted pushes and constant injuries?

 

He is now. I just don't look back on his career and stamp failure on it because I liked his tag work.

 

A-Train wasn't damaged by losing to him in a minute and a half? Cena in the US Title tourney? Chris Benoit wasn't damaged by jobbing to O'Haire last May?

 

Nope. Nope. And Nope. Jobbing on an individual basis doesn't really hurt anyone unless it is built up as a really big deal (Like Goldberg in WCW, or to a lesser extent Tatanka). Long term jobbing does a whole lot more damage to a guy than any one match.

 

Don't confuse anything I say as hostility towards Orton. Again, more confusion becuase of what AS always says.

 

Then I think we're pretty much in agreement.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Benoit WAS damaged by jobbing to O'Haire, as that is one of the arguements brought up in the dumbass "Benoit was dogging it" arguments. People associate that period in Benoits career with "dogging it" because of jobbing to people like O'Haire, Cena and the Bashams.

[Guest Goodear]

Benoit WAS damaged by jobbing to O'Haire, as that is one of the arguements brought up in the dumbass "Benoit was dogging it" arguments. People associate that period in Benoits career with "dogging it" because of jobbing to people like O'Haire, Cena and the Bashams.

Actually, I thought Benoit was 'dogging it' not because he was jobbing but because he was spending a whole lot of time in chinlocks and going through his spots in a paint-by-numbers fashion. The A-Train feud pretty much fixed that since Benoit and Train have a certain chemistry and seemingly Benoit loves taking Train's most fucked up (in a good way) offense.

 

But just to answer the 'damage' question. I feel as though a individual loss shouldn't hurt a guy. The damage to Benoit in that period was because he was doing it for all the people you mentioned in rapid succession. Once again beating up A-Train and (to a lesser extent) Rhyno cleared that all up.

[Dandy 0]

I'm a huge fan of Orton, and I don't expect relative newcomers to the wrestling scene to reach god-like status early. It's simply a different generation, and I think that is a bad thing. Gone are the days of guys having a couple years or more working in territories, touring Japan, Mexico, and then starting there WW(F) careers as wrestlers with good ring presence and knowledge. These days, I think wrestlers have it a tad easier if they have a good look. WWE thinks they can add a little wrestling along the way and it will work.

 

Orton has not held a single title in his WWE career. I don't think he has been pushed down my throat. I think he has a good gimmick, but I do agree that he should win a few of those matches a little more convincingly once in awhile. My prediction is that he'll slowly start winning more convincingly now that he is being elevated to IC status.

 

And realistically, Orton is just now being elevated to the level where Christian, RVD, and Booker T are. RVD and Booker are constantly said to be pushed down further on the card than where they should be. Doesn't this show you that Orton is not placed all that high? It does to me.

[Guest RollingSambos]

And realistically, Orton is just now being elevated to the level where Christian, RVD, and Booker T are. RVD and Booker are constantly said to be pushed down further on the card than where they should be. Doesn't this show you that Orton is not placed all that high?

 

EXACTLY. And Booker is no better than Orton, he's a horrible worker that needs to be led by the hand.

[Guest Megatron]

Booker is no better than Orton, he's a horrible worker that needs to be led by the hand.

Hello?

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I agree that Booker is bad too. I've said that for years now.

 

BUT HE GOT OVER.

 

Booker T: 1

Randy Orton: 0

[bob_barron 0]

Booker T isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination but in his prime the man was a GREAT worker

[Guest RollingSambos]

Orton is slowly but surely getting over. I wouldn't say that he's officially over, but he sure as hell is getting more of a reaction than he did a year ago. I think that once he gets the Intercontinental title, his heat is going to take off. Pitting him against somebody as popular as RVD is also going to help his cause. The most "over" that he's been all year was during his feud with Shawn, and that's because the fans love Shawn. So it should be the same case with RVD. Like Jeff Jarrett once said, you need a really good good guy to have a really good bad guy.

[Guest RollingSambos]

Booker T isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination

 

No, he's not bad. He does well when he's got a superior worker like Jericho or HHH (I can't believe I just said that) to carry him to **.

 

but in his prime the man was a GREAT worker

 

Why? Because Benoit made him look like a million bucks?

 

You are either a good worker or you aren't. It's not something that you lose over time, like your explosiveness (Luger) or your mobility (HHH). Booker is not a good worker. If he was, he would have been able to clear **** with somebody besides Benoit. His "prime"...what was that, a six week period in 1998?

[bob_barron 0]

No, he's not bad. He does well when he's got a superior worker like Jericho or HHH (I can't believe I just said that) to carry him to **.

 

Yes- Booker T has good->great matches with good workers. I don't see why that's so scandalous. And the guy got a watchable match out of Mark Henry.

 

 

 

Why? Because Benoit made him look like a million bucks?

 

Nope- He had good-great stuff with a lot of people in WCW and WWF. He's done more then stuff with Benoit.

 

You are either a good worker or you aren't. It's not something that you lose over time, like your explosiveness (Luger) or your mobility (HHH).

 

Booker T IS a good worker. He's had a variety of good matches with many different people. I consider that to be good.

[Guest RollingSambos]

And the guy got a watchable match out of Mark Henry.

 

I guess that's your opinion. Personally, I got up halfway through it and made a sammich. Made the women's wrestling look exciting.

[bob_barron 0]

I'm talking about their match on the 17th. I didnt care for last nights match

[Guest Megatron]

Booker T IS a good worker. He's had a variety of good matches with many different people. I consider that to be good.

Haven't you noticed by now that nobody cares who/what is good? It doesn't matter which one of us comes in here to say they like this or that. Someone else will always come along (Ray) and say it doesn't matter what your opinion is because they still suck and that's the bottom line.... If I like someone, then they are good to me. I don't care what other people think. It's like Besus with all the Orton loving. I personally don't care for Orton, but he does. He sees something in him. He thinks he's good. I don't. Which one of us is wrong? Neither because it's all about who "clicks" with you.

[Damaramu 0]

The saddest thing is that they give someone like Benoit a chance to get over and he doesnt' do it in 2 weeks and they give up and say he doesn't have the goods.

Orton they've been pushing so hard for a year and he hasn't gotten over at all...yet they continue.

It's not so much Orton's fault that his push sucks and the WWE is forcing him on us because they don't actually give the fans what they want...they give us what they want.

However it is Orton's fault that he sucks in the ring and to a degree it is his fault he can't get over...he is the one that is supposed to be getting the heat on him from the live crowds...and he fails.

[bob_barron 0]

Well that's because Ray's an ass.

 

You can have an argument on good v. bad worker if you present your argument in a good way

[Guest RollingSambos]

I have a question about Booker...what is his finish supposed to be? Because the missile dropkick seems to be his false finish move, and the scissor kick is always followed by him doing the spin-a-rooni. So what is supposed to come after the spin-a-rooni? The Book End?

[Guest Megatron]

I have a question about Booker...what is his finish supposed to be? Because the missile dropkick seems to be his false finish move, and the scissor kick is always followed by him doing the spin-a-rooni. So what is supposed to come after the spin-a-rooni? The Book End?

In WCW his finisher for a long time was The Hangover. Then it was the dropkick. In WWE he doesn't really have a set finisher. In fact, I think that Jack Brisco Sunset Flip is the closest thing he has to a finisher.

[bob_barron 0]

He has the bookend and the axe kick and occasionally the hangover

[Guest RollingSambos]

I'm saying what is his finisher right now, in the WWF. It's not the Hangover because he busts that out once in a blue moon and it requires the guy to be close to the corner. And the scissor kick only sets up the spin-a-rooni. So what is supposed to come after the spin-a-rooni? Someone please tell me.

[Guest Megatron]

So what is supposed to come after the spin-a-rooni? Someone please tell me.

A pop.

[deancoles 0]

the Harlem Sidekick is supposed to follow the Spin-a-rooni.

[Guest RollingSambos]

Uh...

 

He hasn't pinned anybody with the Harlem Side Kick since he left WCW.

 

Next please...

 

I think Megatron nailed it when he answered, "A pop."

[deancoles 0]

he beat Stone Cold on a smackdown with the harlem Sidekick.

[Guest Megatron]

Really, I don't think anything in particular is supposed to happen after the spin-a-roonie. Sometimes he just seems to do it whenever he knocks someone down. I've seen him do it after the axe-kick and at other times as well. I guess he just does it whenever it feels right.