One thing I miss about Russo...

[Chazz 0]

I'm really glad to see a positive thread about Russo for a change. Just look at what Russo accomplished with Ed Ferrera when both were writing for The WWF/E from 1997-1999. Shortly after both departed, It beame obvious that Vince McMahon was not The Creative Genius many thought he was.

[2GOLD 0]

Actually, the Russo based team seemed to be "ok, here is the general idea we are giving you. Now you either run with it and make it into something yourself or pick up your paycheck at the door."

 

He gave them the freedom to either make or break themselves, which Austin pointed out allowed guys like him and Rock to get themselves over because they weren't handcuffed by fully written speeches. It seems according to Austin, the company was much better under the "improv yourself" run of the Russo led group.

 

When guys aren't handcuffed and aren't worried that some writer is going to screw them up, they are more relaxed and basically let themselves go more in the ring. You just don't see that anymore in any of the wrestlers. Plus being told to slow down your ringwork or change your style can't help a guy's morale when you ship him to house shows and dark matches cause "he's not as good as he used to be."

 

How many times have we read "creative doesn't know what to do with him" lately? It needs to be said, these losers writing aren't very creative then.

[chaosrage 0]

I'm really glad to see a positive thread about Russo for a change. Just look at what Russo accomplished with Ed Ferrera when both were writing for The WWF/E from 1997-1999. Shortly after both departed, It beame obvious that Vince McMahon was not The Creative Genius many thought he was.

2000 was one of the best years for WWF, much better than 1999.

[Chazz 0]

I'm really glad to see a positive thread about Russo for a change.  Just look at what Russo accomplished with Ed Ferrera when both were writing for The WWF/E from 1997-1999.  Shortly after both departed, It beame obvious that Vince McMahon was not The Creative Genius many thought he was.

2000 was one of the best years for WWF, much better than 1999.

2000 was pretty good, as The Writers Vince had at The time were capable. Not as good as The Russo/Ferrera Team was, but that's a matter of personal choice. But alas said Writers quit near The end of 2000, citing burnout as one of The main causes.(Much like Russo and Ferrera a year earlier.) Vince then had the bright idea of placing his inexperienced, undeserving Daughter as Head of Creative. The rest, as they say, Is History.

[tommytomlin 0]

I also hate the 'creative doesn't have anything for you''. I hate how people make out writing 4 hours of wrestling each week with the best talent roster in wrestling history is difficult. It's NOT. Even with the backstage politics, and the spectre of Vince looking over everything, neither RAW or Smackdown are so complex that you need a whole TEAM of people to write four hours of a wrestling show each week. Any 16 year-old fanboy could plan out a 6 month run to Wrestlemania in about a day, I don't see why it needs 'creative teams', 'consultants' and soap opera writers to come up with four hours a week of the most boring wrestling television in years. How many people does it take to come up thrilling storylines like 'Kane runs in and beats up Goldberg', and the classic Jindrak and Cade backstage promos? What do these people DO for the other 6.8 days a week?

[The Mandarin 0]

2000 was a great year for wrestling, that wrapped up at WrestleMania X-7. Infact, the entire Attitude era ended at X-7. So it was a great year.

[Guest croweater]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Consider the WWE creative team OWNED

 

EDIT: DAMN YOU Jumpin Jack, get out of the way of my arrows.

Edited December 7, 2003 by croweater

[Guest JumpinJackFlash]

Vince Russo is awesome! He became my hero when he told that "big bald son of a bitch" to kiss his ass!

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

I'm really glad to see a positive thread about Russo for a change.  Just look at what Russo accomplished with Ed Ferrera when both were writing for The WWF/E from 1997-1999.  Shortly after both departed, It beame obvious that Vince McMahon was not The Creative Genius many thought he was.

2000 was one of the best years for WWF, much better than 1999.

I don't agree. Early 2000 was VERY good, but shortly around Mania time I thought the writing was getting stupid and the shows getting predictable- and that was before Steph took over creative.

 

A lot of the things people bitch about today can be traced back to the "golden age" of 2000:

 

-The roster became really stratifed, you had Rock, HHH and eventually Undertaker as the only ones in serious contention for the belt. Jericho, Angle and Benoit all should've been but never beat the big 3 in any convincing way (sound familiar?) and Kane wandered around the card doing... well, nothing, really.

 

-Feuds dragged on FOREVER. Not in the off again, on again way we've had more recent feuds like Angle/Benoit or HHH/Kane, I mean they literally WOULD NEVER END. Rock/HHH and Hardyz/Dudleyz/E & C come to mind here.

 

-McMahons everywhere. Just look at the Mania main event. Plus they combined the McMahons with the most watered down version of DX possible into the "Facgime" or whatever the hell they called it. Only the RTC (more on them in a minute) could rival them as worse stable ever.

 

- A lot of midcarders that had actual personalities under Russo or even early 2000 became interchangable nobodies. Hardcore Holly went from the Big Shot to... nothing. D'lo Brown went from a charismatic IC contender to Godfather's sidekick. Godfather himself, along with Bull and Val, went from 3 very different characters into interchangable RTC cult memebers.

 

- ECW imports Tazz and Raven were buried much more than RVD ever was.

 

Now I think that after Mania XV, 99 was terrible. But early 99 was pretty good and 97 and 98 under Russo were probably the most entertaining and UNPREDICTABLE (something lost in 2000 and continuing to today) years ever, and it was before Russo went insane so the stories actually made sense.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

If Russo and somebody known for their great old-school booking, say Watts, were to join forces and find a happy medium, the product could be outstanding. That is, of course, if they let the workers do anything within a list of guidelines (like, not using the finisher of another opponent, not brushing off a DEATH maneuever, etc.).

 

Old-School Booking + Sports Entertainment + Solid In-Ring Competition = Quality

 

Wow...I just described TNA from this summer...

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I thought Vince Russo's stuff was better that what we get on RAW these days.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't agree. Early 2000 was VERY good,  but shortly around Mania time I thought the writing was getting stupid and the shows getting predictable- and that was before Steph took over creative.

 

A lot of the things people bitch about today can be traced back to the "golden age" of 2000:

 

-The roster became really stratifed, you had Rock, HHH and eventually Undertaker as the only ones in serious contention for the belt.  Jericho, Angle and Benoit all should've been but never beat the big 3 in any convincing way (sound familiar?) and Kane wandered around the card doing... well, nothing, really.

That's all you ever had at one time for contention of the belt. 1997 had Bret, Shawn, and Undertaker. 1998 had Austin and Undertaker. Then Foley and Rock at the end. 1999 had Austin, Undertaker, Foley, and Rock. The problem now isn't that they're so few title contenders. It's that Jericho and Benoit have been there for 3 years and they're in the exact same spot! It's fine for HHH to have a long title reign in 2000, as he had just became a main eventer. Benoit and Jericho feuding with each other over the IC title was right where they belonged in 2000. Jericho beat HHH clean, Benoit beat Rock a few times, and Angle won the world title.

 

-McMahons everywhere. Just look at the Mania main event. Plus they combined the McMahons with the most watered down version of DX possible into the "Facgime" or whatever the hell they called it. Only the RTC (more on them in a minute) could rival them as worse stable ever.

 

Same way in 1999. Corporate Ministry was worse. At least in 2000, you had matches that went longer than 5 minutes. We had better matches on RAW in 2000 than we had in most PPVs in 99.

 

- A lot of midcarders that had actual personalities under Russo or even early 2000 became interchangable nobodies. Hardcore Holly went from the Big Shot to... nothing. D'lo Brown went from a charismatic IC contender to Godfather's sidekick. Godfather himself, along with Bull and Val, went from 3 very different characters into interchangable RTC cult memebers.

 

They had to change because of the PTC. 2000 had plenty of new personalities, like Edge & Christian, Angle, and Jericho. Biker Taker. Rikishi and Too Cool. Even if you don't like them, they was different. The product wasn't as stale as it is now.

 

Now I think that after Mania XV, 99 was terrible. But early 99 was pretty good and 97 and 98 under Russo were probably the most entertaining and UNPREDICTABLE (something lost in 2000 and continuing to today) years ever, and it was before Russo went insane so the stories actually made sense.

 

I don't think Russo had a whole lot to do with 97 and 98. What he did in WCW showed that he didn't have a clue how to run a wrestling promotion. Whoever wrote Hart/Austin and Hart Foundation/USA and McMahon/Austin was a genius. Russo isn't capable of that.

[Chazz 0]

I don't think Russo had a whole lot to do with 97 and 98. What he did in WCW showed that he didn't have a clue how to run a wrestling promotion. Whoever wrote Hart/Austin and Hart Foundation/USA and McMahon/Austin was a genius. Russo isn't capable of that.

Actually Russo was promoted to Head Writer In late 1997, so He was largely responsible for The Success of The Austin McMahon Feud.

[Damaramu 0]

I do agree he did some good stuff...but he did shit to. A lot of the time he'd just come up with an idea he thought was good because it was in a movie. Luckily somebody was always there to shut that down....well sometimes.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

That's all you ever had at one time for contention of the belt. 1997 had Bret, Shawn, and Undertaker. 1998 had Austin and Undertaker. Then Foley and Rock at the end. 1999 had Austin, Undertaker, Foley, and Rock.

True, but let me clarify a little more. In all those other years, upper midcarders could still get into the ring with the main eventers and not look out of place. Sure, they probably wouldn't win (though they occasionally would if it was non-title) but it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion that they'd be slaughtered. But in 2000 Rock and HHH were made to look like such gods in comparison to the the rest of the roster that no one would look to have much of a chance.

 

The problem now isn't that they're so few title contenders. It's that Jericho and Benoit have been there for 3 years and they're in the exact same spot! It's fine for HHH to have a long title reign in 2000, as he had just became a main eventer

 

I agree with all this.

 

Benoit and Jericho feuding with each other over the IC title was right where they belonged in 2000. Jericho beat HHH clean, Benoit beat Rock a few times, and Angle won the world title.

 

I'm not saying they should've been made WWF champs right off the bat, but when Fully Loaded came around and ALL 3 of the hottest new stars on the show lost back to back matches, it seemed a little fishy to me how they wouldn't let any of them get a big win and rock the boat of their precious upper echelon. And time has definitely proven me right on that one, wouldn't you agree?

 

I'll give you Jericho's win over HHH, but Benoit's wins over the Rock were hardly clean and those cocktease title wins of his just made him look worse- here's a guy who literally had the match won, and then blew it when Foley restarted the matches. As for Angle, his reign with the belt was almost as bad as Jericho's in 2002.

 

Same way in 1999. Corporate Ministry was worse. At least in 2000, you had matches that went longer than 5 minutes. We had better matches on RAW in 2000 than we had in most PPVs in 99.

 

Corporate Ministry was bad, but at least the Mania XV match (which was before the C.M. nonsense) wasn't billed as "A McMahon in every corner! - oh yeah and some wrestlers too".

 

As for short matches, it's just as well considering the talent roster in 99. In 2000 there was nothing wrong with longer matches considering they had guys like Benoit, Guerrero, etc. But in 99 did you really want a match like Mideon vs. Bossman to last longer than 2 minutes? Sometimes quick and painless is the answer.

 

They had to change because of the PTC. 2000 had plenty of new personalities, like Edge & Christian, Angle, and Jericho. Biker Taker. Rikishi and Too Cool. Even if you don't like them, they was different. The product wasn't as stale as it is now.

 

Not all of the character homogenization was PTC related. With guys like Hardcore and D'lo, it was just a matter of no one bothering to write stories for them. Even Kane had his storyline dropped. Early in the year he had his feud with DX and Paul Bearer returned by his side. After a few weeks Paul disappeared and Kane wandered around doing nothing until that fateful day Jericho spilled coffee on him.

 

And a lot of the characters you mention- Angle, Jericho, Rikishi- actually got their start in 99. And they did have a lot of good ideas and characters at the time, but they were so busy patting themselves on the back that by the end of 2000 they had run all of their good ideas that were so fresh at the start of the year completely into the ground.

 

I don't think Russo had a whole lot to do with 97 and 98. What he did in WCW showed that he didn't have a clue how to run a wrestling promotion. Whoever wrote Hart/Austin and Hart Foundation/USA and McMahon/Austin was a genius. Russo isn't capable of that.

 

That's just revisionist history right there. We know Russo was writing for WWF at the time, you can't pretend it never happened because he fucked up in WCW. Besides, you can't give credit to McMahon either because look at all the shit HE'S come up with over the last few years.

 

The stories back then were good because the 2 Vinces cancelled out each other's dumb ideas and played up both their strengths. Its when you let either one of them run creative on their own that you get a problem.

[Guest MikeSC]

(chaosrage @ Dec 7 2003, 03:33 AM)

 

That's all you ever had at one time for contention of the belt. 1997 had Bret, Shawn, and Undertaker. 1998 had Austin and Undertaker. Then Foley and Rock at the end. 1999 had Austin, Undertaker, Foley, and Rock.

 

True, but let me clarify a little more. In all those other years, upper midcarders could still get into the ring with the main eventers and not look out of place. Sure, they probably wouldn't win (though they occasionally would if it was non-title) but it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion that they'd be slaughtered. But in 2000 Rock and HHH were made to look like such gods in comparison to the the rest of the roster that no one would look to have much of a chance.

HHH v Rikishi --- 2/00

HHH v TAKA --- 4/00

HHH v Jericho --- 4/00

Tazz v HHH --- 5/00

Benoit v Rock --- 7/00

 

The problem now isn't that they're so few title contenders. It's that Jericho and Benoit have been there for 3 years and they're in the exact same spot! It's fine for HHH to have a long title reign in 2000, as he had just became a main eventer

 

I agree with all this.

As do we all --- though Benoit appears very much in the title hunt presently.

 

Benoit and Jericho feuding with each other over the IC title was right where they belonged in 2000. Jericho beat HHH clean, Benoit beat Rock a few times, and Angle won the world title.

 

I'm not saying they should've been made WWF champs right off the bat, but when Fully Loaded came around and ALL 3 of the hottest new stars on the show lost back to back matches, it seemed a little fishy to me how they wouldn't let any of them get a big win and rock the boat of their precious upper echelon. And time has definitely proven me right on that one, wouldn't you agree?

Well, Angle has had, what, 3 World Title runs thus far? Benoit was hurt for a nice chunk of 2001 and 2002. Jericho had a World Title run in 2001.

 

I'll give you Jericho's win over HHH, but Benoit's wins over the Rock were hardly clean and those cocktease title wins of his just made him look worse- here's a guy who literally had the match won, and then blew it when Foley restarted the matches. As for Angle, his reign with the belt was almost as bad as Jericho's in 2002.

Benoit was the HEEL --- he's SUPPOSED to cheat. I don't get how Benoit looked bad WHATSOEVER in those matches.

Same way in 1999. Corporate Ministry was worse. At least in 2000, you had matches that went longer than 5 minutes. We had better matches on RAW in 2000 than we had in most PPVs in 99.

 

Corporate Ministry was bad, but at least the Mania XV match (which was before the C.M. nonsense) wasn't billed as "A McMahon in every corner! - oh yeah and some wrestlers too".

I'll take a match with some coherent storytelling behind it over a bad match with BAD storytelling behind it.

As for short matches, it's just as well considering the talent roster in 99. In 2000 there was nothing wrong with longer matches considering they had guys like Benoit, Guerrero, etc. But in 99 did you really want a match like Mideon vs. Bossman to last longer than 2 minutes? Sometimes quick and painless is the answer.

Hmm, Russo was clueless as to what to do with Edge, Christian, the Hardy Boys, etc. And I shudder to think of what he would have done with Kurt Angle.

 

They had to change because of the PTC. 2000 had plenty of new personalities, like Edge & Christian, Angle, and Jericho. Biker Taker. Rikishi and Too Cool. Even if you don't like them, they was different. The product wasn't as stale as it is now.

 

Not all of the character homogenization was PTC related. With guys like Hardcore and D'lo, it was just a matter of no one bothering to write stories for them. Even Kane had his storyline dropped. Early in the year he had his feud with DX and Paul Bearer returned by his side. After a few weeks Paul disappeared and Kane wandered around doing nothing until that fateful day Jericho spilled coffee on him.

RUSSO can't explain Kane's storyline during his stint. He and X-Pac would break up and re-unite depending on --- God knows what. Maybe the barometric pressure outside that night.

 

Hard to figure out what to do with a guy when the booking of him for MONTHS made no sense.

 

And, no offense, but D-Lo was crap in the ring after the Droz accident.

 

As for Holly, the less the better.

 

And a lot of the characters you mention- Angle, Jericho, Rikishi- actually got their start in 99. And they did have a lot of good ideas and characters at the time, but they were so busy patting themselves on the back that by the end of 2000 they had run all of their good ideas that were so fresh at the start of the year completely into the ground.

Russo had NOTHING to do with Angle and he was clueless what to do with Jericho in the brief time he had him (anybody remember his feud with Shamrock...or Curtis Hughes as his bodyguard?). As for Rikishi, he debuted (well, was repackaged) RIGHT BEFORE Russo left, if memory served.

 

I don't think Russo had a whole lot to do with 97 and 98. What he did in WCW showed that he didn't have a clue how to run a wrestling promotion. Whoever wrote Hart/Austin and Hart Foundation/USA and McMahon/Austin was a genius. Russo isn't capable of that.

 

That's just revisionist history right there. We know Russo was writing for WWF at the time, you can't pretend it never happened because he fucked up in WCW. Besides, you can't give credit to McMahon either because look at all the shit HE'S come up with over the last few years.

He's had SOME good ideas and fewer horrible ideas. And, again, look at Russo's work. Why was he SO MUCH WORSE out of the WWF?

The stories back then were good because the 2 Vinces cancelled out each other's dumb ideas and played up both their strengths. Its when you let either one of them run creative on their own that you get a problem.

Agreed.

-=Mike

[geniusMoment 0]

For future reference Russo sat in on booking meetings begining in late 1996. This developed into him becoming an on air character, "The Wrestling Journalist Vic Venom". All of this came to a halt when he gave away the finish to the 1997 Royal Rumble on an edition of Livewire. He got in trouble over this not because this wasn't planned, as he was the writer who planned it, with managements okay. However, during this time their were two factions going against each other in the titan offices. The above scenerio is an example of the worked-shoot, something Russo loved to spring on the audience. Russo told everyone something that most assumed as true, Bret winning, and made it part of the worked show. However, old loyalties die hard with Vince and soon there after the WWF stopped doing the worked-shoot angles such as Austin-Pillman gun and the Rumble guarantee in favor of a more cookie cutter approach. That is until the night after the Royal Rumble when the WWF drew a 2.2 rating against Nitro. Vince knew something needed to change but he didn't know what to do. He did the unthinkable, from then on raw would be 2 hours live every monday, to kick it off they would show the entire 1997 royal rumble match for free on raw, this did not happen due to the ppv companies. Not only was the time slot of the show going to be different but the angles changed, the realism angles were back. On the raw after the royal rumble the lines between babyface and heel were blurred as Bret quit in a whiney fashion and austin became even more of a badass, getting quite the positive response. Instead of taping multiple episodes of raw at one spot starting with the 2/3 edition of raw from the skydome, which was taped because they couldn't change the schedule fast enough as this was done on the fly, raw would be 2 hours live. Despite the change in appearance many of the angles on raw were still stale, stuff straight out of the 70's. (Rocky Miavia, the monsters Vader and Mankind, the blackjacks etc...) McMahon began to find out a change in the time slot and appearance of the show was not enough. He noticed the reaction that the Russo reality stuff was getting, the austin-hart storyline, and asked the creative team why they couldn't write whole shows like that. Their reasons didn't appease VinMan and the week before wrestlemania the WWF completely changed, Bret began his heel turn and the WWF introduced swearing into the broadcast. All of this was planned out by Russo begining in late 1996, his brainchild was to slowly develop the WWF into a more reality based hardcore program. The forces against him in the WWF (Cornette, Ross and Patterson) did not realize that having Vader blade and then austin blade on consecutive ppvs, followed by the "one time outburst" by bret, was all part of a slow design in order to make the WWF's change-over to hardcore less noticeable. In other words you would lull the viewers into the change. The night after Mania another step was taken when Bret used his real life frustrations with the business and turned them into the biggest WWF angle of 1997, the Hart Foundation. In one show the WWF dropped the passe feuding tag team partners storyline and developed the revolutionary Canada/USA storyline. Again this reality based storyline was something Russo was pushing stongly for. Russo then got permission to take over the undercard. His first brainchild, eliminate the stupid gimmicks and show the world the wrestlers real personalities. His first project: Goldust. In an interview on raw goldust appeared as Dustin Rhodes, no makeup, and revealed his troubled relationship with his father and also talked about his wife and daughter. However, Russo has never been one to like bland characters therefore when Rhodes wrestled he continued as Goldust blurring the lines between work and shoot. During this time the HBK/Hart feud changed as they began airing their real life problems with each other on air, something Bret was not comfortable with despite his later proclamations that the Canada idea was his. As the Canada/US wars were heating up Russo took on his next project: Mankind. Instead of being a monster with a silly backstory Russo blurred the lines between truth and reality again. Showing off Mick's real life insecurities and adding in Mankinds demented take on them. By the time the summer was over Russo was officially the head of the writing team. But the title was a mere formality as he had already created most of the "characters" on raw. Cornette and Ross tried to fight it but they had no ammunition left, the shows were without question better. As a side Cornette and Ross still hate Russo to this day and vice versa. Once ross got sick after his mom died Russo pushed for a new commentator to be brought in permenantly, Cornette view was so passe that he was eventually "asked" to become an on air performer and leave the booking team gracefully.

[geniusMoment 0]

Notice I said Russo had created the characters, he never tied them all together and wrote the shows. Vince has always been the editor who has done that. That is why Russo failed so miserably in WCW. He was too focused on simple sound bites and skits used a foreward a character that nothing was used to tie the whole show together, selling the ppv.