Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Benoit vs. Jarrett was good as well, but I thought it was too short. Paul London is nowhere near Michaels' league....yet. Give him a few more years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 It's depressing that guys like London, considering they are as talented as people around here make them out to be, are not given the opportunity to showcase that talent on TV. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Shawn Michaels is still one of the top 5 workers in the company. 1. Benoit 2. Jericho 3. Ultimo Dragon 4. Paul London 5. Kurt Angle I don't see an HBK in that Top 5. And you can't tell me he's better than any of those 5. Hell some may dispute my top 5 but I doubt anyone with a rational outlook would say HBK is a top 5 worker. Ultimo Dragon!? What the hell are you judging that from? His 30 second classics with Tajiri? I love Ultimo as much as the next guy but, despite whatever the reason may be, he has yet to put on any significantly mind blowing match in WWE that justifies the hype that surrounds him. 1. Benoit 2. Kurt Angle 3. Chris Jericho 4. Shawn Michaels 5. Eddie Guerrero That's how I see things at present. UYI Umm.....I would be judging this over his past work. You said the best worker and I think it's been proven before that Ultimo is a better worker than Michaels. Shawn Michaels may go in the Top 5 Most Entertaining.....but not a Top 5 worker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Benoit vs. Jericho: Royal Rumble 2001 Time out. That match kinda blew. If you want to mention Benoit in a great ladder match, try Starrcade 99 vs. Jarrett. Benoit vs Jericho DESTROYED Benoit vs Jarret at Starrcade. That's not to say Benoit vs Jarret was bad as I really enjoyed it but Benoit vs Jericho was just that much better. Benoit vs Jericho had a MUCH better flow to it. The transistions were more fun and innovative. It was also more dramatic such as the spot where Benoit was under the ladder and tipped it over with his legs while Jericho was climbing up for the belt in a believable grab belt finish at that time in the match. The headbutt off the top of the ladder was also used a lot better here (although I understand the reasoning on having the headbutt where it was in the Jarret match) as it brought a lot of excitement and a nice, believable transistion to offence for Jericho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 How on earth do you know that Ultimo can still go like he used to if you are judging his current worth on his previous accomplishments? It just doesn't quite work that way. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Paul London is nowhere near Michaels' league....yet. Give him a few more years Bullshit. AJ-London and Dragon-London were both better than any singles match Shawn has ever had. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 QUOTE Paul London is nowhere near Michaels' league....yet. Give him a few more years Bullshit. AJ-London and Dragon-London were both better than any singles match Shawn has ever had. Sorry about that. When I saw the word top 5 workers, I thought that meant the top 5 overall. You know...Wrestling AND Entertaining? Paul London has not really "entertained" me since being in the WWE, but he has been "wrestling" well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 One other thing: Benoit-Jericho was 1 million times better than that 10 minute Crash-TV style ladder match at Starrcade. A 10 minute ladder match? What the fuck? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Top 5 in WWE. London's matches with AJ & Dragon were not in WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 How on earth do you know that Ultimo can still go like he used to if you are judging his current worth on his previous accomplishments? It just doesn't quite work that way. UYI You said worker. Comparing both as pure workers Ultimo is much better. It can't be helped that he is hampered by the WWE style.....I'm sure if they would let him loose and go at it then he would easily outshine Michaels. Ultimo's best match is better than Michaels best match. Hell Ultimo/Lyger at Super J-Cup is better than Michaels best match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 London's matches with AJ & Dragon were not in WWE. Yeah, I know. I wish I could see ROH. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 How on earth do you know that Ultimo can still go like he used to if you are judging his current worth on his previous accomplishments? It just doesn't quite work that way. UYI You said worker. Comparing both as pure workers Ultimo is much better. It can't be helped that he is hampered by the WWE style.....I'm sure if they would let him loose and go at it then he would easily outshine Michaels. Ultimo's best match is better than Michaels best match. Hell Ultimo/Lyger at Super J-Cup is better than Michaels best match. Dude, you've totally missed my point here. I was arguing that HBK is one of the top 5 workers in WWE TODAY, not of all time. Also, this only involves workers and their matches that took place IN WWE, not in Japan, not in Ring of Honor or anywhere else. Ultimo's had some fucking unbelieveable matches, I totally agree with you, but he hasnt put on anything note-worthy since becoming a member of the WWE roster, despite what the reason for that occurring is. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Sandusky 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 It's going to be the main event, the final match of the night. The main event of Wrestlemania needs to be a WRESTLING match. Keep the gimmicks out. Make it a three-way elimination match or something if you have to have three people in it, just KEEP THE LADDER AWAY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Ultimo's had some fucking unbelieveable matches, I totally agree with you, but he hasnt put on anything note-worthy since becoming a member of the WWE roster, despite what the reason for that occurring is. Yeah. I liked it how the WWE finally gave us Ultimo/Mysterio in October of last year. But of course, they had to rip us off by ending it in 3 minutes. And what about Ultimo's title shot which he earned by winning that match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 How on earth do you know that Ultimo can still go like he used to if you are judging his current worth on his previous accomplishments? It just doesn't quite work that way. UYI You said worker. Comparing both as pure workers Ultimo is much better. It can't be helped that he is hampered by the WWE style.....I'm sure if they would let him loose and go at it then he would easily outshine Michaels. Ultimo's best match is better than Michaels best match. Hell Ultimo/Lyger at Super J-Cup is better than Michaels best match. Dude, you've totally missed my point here. I was arguing that HBK is one of the top 5 workers in WWE TODAY, not of all time. Also, this only involves workers and their matches that took place IN WWE, not in Japan, not in Ring of Honor or anywhere else. Ultimo's had some fucking unbelieveable matches, I totally agree with you, but he hasnt put on anything note-worthy since becoming a member of the WWE roster, despite what the reason for that occurring is. UYI Yeah but just because they have better matches in the WWE doesn't mean that they are a better worker overall. Which is pretty much what you get when you say Top 5 in the WWE. Sure Ultimo hasn't had a better match but we all know he can blow HBK away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Speak for yourself. When I see Ultimo do anything that comes close to some of the great matches HBK has been apart of in the past year or so, then I'll consider agreeing with you. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Yeah but just because they have better matches in the WWE doesn't mean that they are a better worker overall. Which is pretty much what you get when you say Top 5 in the WWE. Sure Ultimo hasn't had a better match but we all know he can blow HBK away. But HBK can get the crowd into the match much more. Watch the 12/29 RAW match in San Antonio. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Speak for yourself. When I see Ultimo do anything that comes close to some of the great matches HBK has been apart of in the past year or so, then I'll consider agreeing with you. UYI Have you ever seen an Ultimo match then? Like I said his best match outshines HBK's best match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Yeah but just because they have better matches in the WWE doesn't mean that they are a better worker overall. Which is pretty much what you get when you say Top 5 in the WWE. Sure Ultimo hasn't had a better match but we all know he can blow HBK away. But HBK can get the crowd into the match much more. Watch the 12/29 RAW match in San Antonio. That's hardly fair, it was his home town and he was in the main event, for the World title. Of course the crowd is going to be hot. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Speak for yourself. When I see Ultimo do anything that comes close to some of the great matches HBK has been apart of in the past year or so, then I'll consider agreeing with you. UYI Have you ever seen an Ultimo match then? Like I said his best match outshines HBK's best match. Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about. We'll just conclude you've lost the plot and move on. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 That's hardly fair, it was his home town and he was in the main event, for the World title. Of course the crowd is going to be hot. UYI Okay, what about the Royal Rumble match. Or even Wrestlemania 19. His match with Jericho woke up the crowd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 That's hardly fair, it was his home town and he was in the main event, for the World title. Of course the crowd is going to be hot. UYI Okay, what about the Royal Rumble match. Or even Wrestlemania 19. His match with Jericho woke up the crowd. That's better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Speak for yourself. When I see Ultimo do anything that comes close to some of the great matches HBK has been apart of in the past year or so, then I'll consider agreeing with you. UYI Have you ever seen an Ultimo match then? Like I said his best match outshines HBK's best match. Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about. We'll just conclude you've lost the plot and move on. UYI Well you were saying HBK is the best worker in the WWE based off of his WWE work. And I'm saying that's not fair b/c Ultimo hasn't gotten the chance to work a match in the WWE like Michaels has and we all know based off of Ultimo's best work that he is better than Michaels. So to say HBK is in the Top 5 is false because we know there are better workers than him there even if they don't get the chance he does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Michaels back hasn't stopped him from anything so far. He used a ladder in his street fight with HHH. He went off the top rope through a table twice that I know of. Once against HHH and once against Flair. Both those matches sucked. HBK was still kinda rusty then, but I think he'd best stick to wrestling good wrestling matches, not spotfests. I can't see Mr. MetHHHodical Story-Telling thrilling anyone in that match either. I'm sure that Benoit and HBK would be pretty damn good in just about any match together, but I doubt either wants to take any sick bumps in this match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JumpinJackFlash Report post Posted February 9, 2004 I'm sure that Benoit and HBK would be pretty damn good in just about any match together, but I doubt either wants to take any sick bumps in this match Though it is the main event of Wrestlemania. And not just any Wrestlemania, the biggest Wrestlemania to date! I say all bets are off. You may even see HBK fall from a 30 foot ladder onto thumbtacks...... Well, maybe not that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 If Shawn Michaels is a top 5 worker in this company... Shouldn't you be able to sell even the tiniest bit to make that list? Paul London sold better on Velocity against Nunzio this week than HBK has EVER DONE IN HIS CAREER. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted February 9, 2004 1. Benoit 2. Kurt Angle 3. Chris Jericho 4. Shawn Michaels 5. Eddie Guerrero Guerrero > Angle Guerrero > Jericho Lesnar > Angle Your list sucks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
geniusMoment 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2004 I don't care what any of you say, I like it. The match pays homage to "the wrestlemania match" 10 years later. Thinking of what HBK and the Crippler will do to each other in a ladder match at Wrestlemania is reason enough to order this ppv. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted February 9, 2004 1. Benoit 2. Kurt Angle 3. Chris Jericho 4. Shawn Michaels 5. Eddie Guerrero Guerrero > Angle Guerrero > Jericho Lesnar > Angle Your list sucks. To be fair Ray, Angle had a better match with Holly on Smackdown than Lesnar did on the PPV. True, Angle had more time but the match was better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted February 9, 2004 I don't care what any of you say, I like it. The match pays homage to "the wrestlemania match" 10 years later. Thinking of what HBK and the Crippler will do to each other in a ladder match at Wrestlemania is reason enough to order this ppv. That's fine and all that you're looking forward to it but to me personally, I hate this more than anything has ever been hated before in the history of hating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
