JHawk 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Raw from JHawk's Beak (2/16/2004) I'm glad I got this week's main event, because if I'd have started covering for Dames next week I might have shot myself rather than covering this show again, even briefly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 I'd like to have one of those magical things where you get to see exactly what the fans "get" and "don't get". Where did you buy yours Jhawk? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 I really thought Shawn didn't bring anything tonight beyond the usual, whereas Benoit was working really hard. I think this match is Exhibition A for those that argue that Benoit is a better worker than Shawn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JHawk 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 You mention near the end how HHH picks up Hunter and gives him the Pedigree Shit. OK, changing that now. And RRR, I work at a Circuit City where pretty much everybody is a casual fan, and the ones that Eddy-Brock said nothing except great match, and the ones who hadn't said something along the lines of "Good, after everything he's been through he deserves it." I'd say they got it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 My mini-review of the Raw main event(originally posted on another forum): Beniot vs. Micheals 2/16/04 Talk about a one man show, aside from some frantic selling at the end, HBK doesn't do jack shit aside from stagger around like a drunk. Judging from his selling of the neckbreaker, Beniot appeared to want to set up some sort of story involing his bad neck, but HBK is too cluessless to figure out what he's doing, and decides to fill his time by choping, leaning against the ropes, and stumbling around in a daze. Things get slightly more intesting when Beniot takes control after the commercial break, he goes after HBK's back, but Micheals can't be bothered to sell it or anything. Beniot gives Micheals a couple of openings for some decent spots towards the end, before they take it home with the typical screw job finish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes Report post Posted February 17, 2004 ...he goes after HBK's back, but Micheals can't be bothered to sell it or anything. Should we act surprised about this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 ...he goes after HBK's back, but Micheals can't be bothered to sell it or anything. Should we act surprised about this? Should you? I just posted that in response to the ****, Great Match review I read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 I thought HBK's reversals of the crossface (pushing Benoits hands away) and the ab stretch (moving the leg) were very good. As was the way he took benoits offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 I thought HBK's reversals of the crossface (pushing Benoits hands away) and the ab stretch (moving the leg) were very good. As was the way he took benoits offense. Yeah, I said I liked his frantic selling at the end. The leg move, hiptoss with the Abdominal Stretch is actually a pretty elementary counter, you just don't see to often in the modern WWE(or at least I haven't). But still Micheals looked lost when he was on offense, and couldn't seem to figure out how to work over Beniot's neck, which he kept giving him the opening to do, it's just HBK didn't seem to know how to go about doing it, or just wasn't interested. I also don't recall him ever putting over the back work as threat, other than looking tired, until he was put in the Scorpion Deathlock. This for the most part was a total carry job, it's just Beniot wasn't able to get a good match out of HBK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 But still Micheals looked lost when he was on offense That's because he doesn't really have any - Benoit had the same problem with Flair. Half the fun with Benoit is his bumping, and if the best he's bumping off of is a punch, then the match will lack the necessary drama; it's harder to sympathize. Though I will say this, Benoit's effort still showed in that match and was able to get the crowd a lil bit behind him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 That's because he doesn't really have any - Benoit had the same problem with Flair. Half the fun with Benoit is his bumping, and if the best he's bumping off of is a punch, then the match will lack the necessary drama; it's harder to sympathize. Though I will say this, Benoit's effort still showed in that match and was able to get the crowd a lil bit behind him. Which oddly enough goes back to why I said HBK didn't do jack shit in the match, he seemed to have no idea how to use his time. Actually, Beniot is at his best when he's working smart instead of bumping, but there's only so much you can do when you appear to be working with corpses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 And RRR, I work at a Circuit City where pretty much everybody is a casual fan, and the ones that Eddy-Brock said nothing except great match, and the ones who hadn't said something along the lines of "Good, after everything he's been through he deserves it." I'd say they got it. From WO.com This is the last WWE pay per view that is based soley on new stars that I buy. It was pathetic. None of the matches had any meaning. The title doesn't even mean anything anymore. I had a lot of friends over for this one, most used to be really big wrestling fans and everyone was unanimously disappointed in this show. The main event was one of the most boring things I have ever seen. That was the most desperate way I've ever seen the WWE take up thirty minutes ever. They did probably 15 minutes of restholds that looked very sloppy or unrealistic. Goldberg's presence and the cruiserweight match were the only two saving graces of the show. Noble/Nidia was somewhat entertaining, as was the first time I've ever seen a "Bring Back Strike Force" sign, but none of all of that was nearly worth 35 bucks. My friends asked what the Mania card was shaping up to be and they all pretty much groaned. This company is in trouble, even if it's just for special attraction matches to make the shows feel more important, they have to bring in some names from the past to do something. I think the amount of empty seats at the Cow Palace who was used to seeing great SuperBrawl cards from WCW said exactly how I and my friends felt about this show. If they don't hurry up and add something big or change around the Mania line up, this is gonna be a bad year for buyrates. Not everyones experience is the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Which oddly enough goes back to why I said HBK didn't do jack shit in the match, he seemed to have no idea how to use his time. Actually, Beniot is at his best when he's working smart instead of bumping, but there's only so much you can do when you appear to be working with corpses. Eh, I think "smart" Benoit left a long time ago. Mind you, Benoit still knows how to put a match together and leave openings and whatnot, but in terms of working around his opponents faults, he tends to bump like crazy (vs. Jones) or chop a lot (Flair, Michaels.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Eh, I think "smart" Benoit left a long time ago. Mind you, Benoit still knows how to put a match together and leave openings and whatnot, but in terms of working around his opponents faults, he tends to bump like crazy (vs. Jones) or chop a lot (Flair, Michaels.) Oh, If were just talking about the present, than I'd agree. Still tonight, it looked like he tried to do something smart with his selling of the neck, and his use of the Sharpshooter after the backwork, it's just opponent didn't do his part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Then I agree 100%. The backdrop spot, actually, should have been with Benoit falling ontop of HBK and HBK should have been cradling Benoit. That way it plays up the hurt back and using the bad neck to his advantage. Benoit should have been doing roll ups for the quick pins which puts pressure on HBK's back. Hell, they could have been doing this in their match because I recall something similar, but it never stuck out like neato psychology should. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted February 17, 2004 JHawk gives Michaels/Benoit ****....Keller and Keith gave it ****1/4... Looks like we might have an early candidate for most overrated match of 2004... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 *** from me, and I think I'm being generous. Benoit really brought the A-game tonight, but Shawn just sucked the big one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 They had the quick near falls anyways, I was just suggesting a way to include the psychological aspects into it; rather than just random pin-falls. That's the whole point of ring psychology, to give things an exact purpose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Looks like we might have an early candidate for most overrated match of 2004... C'mon, they gave the Ironman match *****'s (well, Keller did - keith gave it something similar). They really shouldn't be considered here. I thought the best part of the match was the pacing. It was slow(er) but it was constant. Benoit was really laying into Michaels and the crowd legitimately seemed clueless over who would win. The near falls, however, could have worked better. Again, they seemed so random, as if "ok, here comes the pinning sequence" rather than "these guys need to win now". I thought they may have been working towards a draw with the 3 "10 counts", but the finish had nothing to do with that. Infact, the finish had nothing to do with anything which really hurt the match, in my view. Not just because I am a benoit fan and hate hbk and this whole storyline (which is a major part) but because all the worked just seemed useless given that finish. It's like "here's a taste of what you'll get at backlash", but they still could have accomplished that in a better way (tag match?). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Looks like we might have an early candidate for most overrated match of 2004... C'mon, they gave the Ironman match *****'s (well, Keller did - keith gave it something similar). They really shouldn't be considered here. It's not just them though... I've checked a dozen other forums since Raw ended, and they're filled with posts like "Shawn deserves to be in the Wrestlemania main event after his great match with Benoit" or "Benoit has had great matches with Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero, and now Shawn Michaels" or "I think we had a MOTY tonight on Raw." I certainly didn't see a great match or a ****+ match or a MOTY when I watched Raw... This thing is quickly working its way up the overrated list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted February 17, 2004 A heel vs heel match by two faces with inconsistent selling and the same over-selling early seen in the last man standing match, no continuation of what was established early on, a bad ending and it was ****!?!?!? Did we upgrade to a ********** scale now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Damn people really hate Michaels don't they? Benoit has been guilty of no selling neck attacks since his feud with Rhyno and now I'm supposed to buy that he really wanted in this match to but didn't? Come on now. Michaels started off attacking the neck early with the neckbreaker and the measured elbow drops that I have never seen Shawn use in his life. But when Benoit transitioned into to offense, that neck work went out the window. Neither guy is really good at long term selling anymore (and Michaels never really was good at in the first place). The abdominal stretch was actually interesting for once because both guys actuallky know how to work a submission maneuver. Michaels fights and moves the whole time he's in the thing while Benoit struggles to keep him down. You saw the same thing happen with the sharpshooter although it was a weaker segment due to Benoit not having the hold in very well. Michaels actually took the rolling Germans in a decent way which is freaking shocking since no one has made that move look good in what seems like years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Flair took better germans than him last week. Surpsing as all hell, yeah. And Benoit never stopped selling the neck, it just was no longer a focus in Michaels offense. Michaels likes to work like he's trying to put together a great wrestling match, then goes into HBK mode where he's worried about just hitting his spots, and it makes his matches hard to get into. But really, I was done with the match when they slowed it down within 3 minutes. Two faces working a heel vs heel match, thats bright. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Open the Muggy Gate 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Seems like there are a lot of HBK haters... how many of you are from Canada? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted February 17, 2004 I'm from America, and would of told you the best thing to happen to wrestling was DX up until 2000. Funny how he can change things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pochorenella 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Looks like we might have an early candidate for most overrated match of 2004... C'mon, they gave the Ironman match *****'s (well, Keller did - keith gave it something similar). They really shouldn't be considered here. It's not just them though... I've checked a dozen other forums since Raw ended, and they're filled with posts like "Shawn deserves to be in the Wrestlemania main event after his great match with Benoit" or "Benoit has had great matches with Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero, and now Shawn Michaels" or "I think we had a MOTY tonight on Raw." I certainly didn't see a great match or a ****+ match or a MOTY when I watched Raw... This thing is quickly working its way up the overrated list. So, according to you, Keller, Keith, Jhawk, and all those people in those forums are wrong and you're right? You just deem the match overrated and expect everybody else to bow down to your superior wisdom? It's called OPINION. Just because people don't agree with you it's no excuse to push aside what they say. They thought it was a good match, you didn't, fine. There's something called respect. Apply it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted February 17, 2004 As a fan of both Benoit and Michaels, I was expecting a great match and didn't get it. The beginning was terribly sloppy, as it seemed more like Shawn was trying to channel HHH than himself. There was far too much laying around disguised as selling, and there were far too many double TKO spots. They were selling that they had been in a grueling 45-minute match about four minutes in. Benoit's sharpshooter was incredibly weak-looking and Shawn still can't figure out how to sell while doing a comeback. I liked the opening mind games spot with Shawn stomping his foot and having a staredown with Benoit, only for Benoit to slap him in the face, but in terms of pacing the match, a smarter follow up may have been Shawn rolling outside to collect himself and getting back in the ring and working a mat sequence that still sees Benoit continue to get the upper hand, followed by Shawn taking a shortcut you wouldn't expect to see from him to get the upper hand and control the middle portion of the match. Instead, they went right into the punchy-punchy-kicky-kicky stuff. The new WWE style is an odd beast. They're still working a sprint style in terms of not milking the most rudimentary things that they should, but they've negated so many of previous strengths they had by stripping any fast-paced offense and instead opting for Shawn doing a 2004 Ric Flair amount of walking away from his opponent to catch his breath. I wanted this to be a great match. It wasn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Damn, no wonder I don't post here no more. Instead of somebody trying to defend HBK's work or lack there of(which is impossible), they just start accusing people of being HBK haters. Oh brother. I would expect better from a mod, Goodear. Just watch the match. HBK doesn't do anything that Beniot doesn't force feed him. I don't give a damn about other matches, Beniot was defiently selling the neck tonight, all the way up into the mid portion though HBK quit working on it long before that. To his credit HBK did do the Enzui Lariat, but after that he got really lost. It took him forever to decide to do the back elbows, but than he just went back into choping mode. Beniot had to steal control back of the match, because HBK wasn't doing anything on offense, and was totally killing the crowd and the match. All HBK had to do was a heat segment, with him cranking a chinlock on Benoit's neck. I also don't think the heel/heel act was the plan. Since HBK wasn't contributing anything, Beniot just had to carry the match with his offense, and work the heat segments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted February 17, 2004 "Hate HBK" as in hating his work. That is my fault for not being more clear. Anyway, I really really didn't get the impression that Benoit was feeding Michaels as much as you did. Michaels did go after the neck to start the match with stuff he doesn't normally use but once they transitioned to the Ab stretch and such, Benoit was done selling it. Which really didn't bother me excessively since neither guy gained a large enough foothold to make debilitating selling really appropriate. I did however appreciate that Benoit stayed in the sleeper quite a bit longer than Michaels due to the relative strength of his neck. Then Michaels stays in the Shooter and Ab Stretch longer than you'd normally see since of his historically weak back. Anyway, it was an ok match. Nothing to get overly excited about and maybe around **3/4 which isn't bad by WWE TV standards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted February 17, 2004 Benoit really sold the swinging neckbreaker, pretty much letting Shawn know with the swatting away from the head grabs, and he seemed to catch on with the elbows and such but it just didn't go anywhere with how they worked the match. And I had a problem with how they were established going in, the way the match seemed to progress backwards with selling, between them going from looking like they had been wrestling for 20 minutes at around 4 and then later on looking fresh, how it played out, the confusing of the crowd, I just can't see how this was a good match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
