What was the moment of truth?

[Guest Three minutes]

This may be a long one, but I was thinking this weekend about the moment of truth for certain guys who were over with the crowd, but never quite grabbed the brass ring. Guys like Jericho, RVD and Booker T. And I thought to myself what was the one moment that any of those guys could have been made a legit main-event player, but it never took place. I thought this may make a good discussion. Now to me a moment is does not have to be one match although for some of these guys it might be, it could be an entire title reign or WWE not following up on a big match and leaving the wrestler in the midcard. Sorry for the lengthy intro, but I write a wrestling column for my campus newspaper and

I'm used to writing intros like this.

 

Chris Jericho: For Jericho, in hindsight, maybe he should have won the Last Man Standing Match at Fully Loaded. At the time it seemed like won of those matches where the loser is put over well, but as time has gone on it seems to have been a bad match for his progression. To me, however worse than the loss was the followup, after the match with Benoit at SS, he feuded with X-Pac, which was very counterproductive to his development. However, the thing we all discussed and talked about was his title reign, especially the build to his match with HHH, which was probably the final straw. Even after that though there was the Hell in the Cell match with HHH which he should have won if WWE was serious at all about him. Then there was the match with Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania that he should have won. To me Jericho is still a guy WWE can draw money with because he is a good perfomer in all aspects and because he's on Raw every time you turn around.

 

RVD: I'm not sure if he should have won at No Mercy 2001, but how about he wins the Royal Rumble in 2002, wins the title from Jericho, while HHH has a blood feud with someone? As far as Unforgiven, that was a big one, but Survior Series 2002 and the Elimination Chamber was the last straw as far as I'm concerned. Whether you think he should have won that match is opinion, but him not winning was a blow in terms of him becoming a star.

 

Booker T: To me any missteps with Booker T. could have been washed away if he had won at Wrestlemania last year. He didn't and that was the end of his main event push.

 

Kurt Angle: Now to me Angle is a top player, but the thing that bothers me is what AngleSault always refers to, when Angle is not fighting for the title it does not seem as big as when Austin or the Rock or Hunter are in a blood feud. His first title reign could be a point of contention. His program with Kane in 2002 could be another one which hurt Angle in terms of being a mega star. He probably should have had a blowoff with Austin (which if it happened a loss would seem counterproductive to this discussion). As far as his comeback, yes they did blow it to the extent that, Angle could have been an inspirational character who wanted to get the title back, but instead had a goofy friendship with Brock Lesnar which let the fans know that Angle was still a goofy guy who happens to be the best wrestler in the company (which he is portrayed as on Smackdown).

 

Chris Benoit: This is tough because he should have been pushed hard after the Royal Rumble last year, but I couldn't tell you what he should have done at Wrestlemania, so it's tough for me to go crazy. As far as now, it should be Benboit-Brock or even Benoit-Eddie. I don't like him on Raw because it doesn't fit the story, which if it had played out correctly would have made him a huge star for at least a while in my opinion.

 

Anyone here have any wrestlers they want to add or anything they want to add to what i've said?

[Guest Ghettoman]

I think for each of those guys you can trace back the worst times to when they were near Triple H. Jericho, Van Dam and Booker are obvious, Angle although wasn't really killed, he could of gotten a lot further if that fued with Triple H played out back when Steph was all about him.

 

And well aside from the two man power trip stuff, we're watching Benoit's dismantlement now.

 

So in my opinion, it's all traced back to one man, the man who's been on top of the WWE world since 2000.

[Guest Three minutes]

Man, I forgot about the HHH-Stephanie thing in regards to Angle, that was actually the one that cost Angle the most in all likelyhood. Angle would have been a huge heel for stealing HHH's wife and HHH would have been a huge babyface and would even get to win the blowoff against Angle in all likelyhood at the end of a multi-month war. Yeah, that was pretty bad.

[Guest Dean and Foam]

Man you're riiight!! Let's see...

 

Kurt Angle shoulda gone mega after the HHH-Steph triangle angle (angle triangle angle!!!). His title run after that was pussy central and Kurt's never recovered from that whole mess. Every chance he gets to be a badass he's just a dork which is Kurt. He's a good guy but he's not money.

 

Chrissy B was all about the Unforgiven 00 four-way. Late 00 was his time with the gold, not Kurt's. The Radicalz reforming set him back, redoing Jericho set him back, the feud with Angle moved him up then the double-Chris run against Stone Cold & Hunter could have caught fire but Hunter's quad injury and the three-way that came at KOTR 01 made Benoit an uphill struggle after his neck surgery. They COULD have put him over the top after his standing O at Rumble 03 but Kurt went ahead with Mania anyway so they had nothing for him. Sad to see what's happing right the hell now...

 

Jericho was all about continuing inside the HHH-Kurt-Stephanie axis and playing for length for a final blowoff with Trips (he still shoulda lost at Loaded 00 to keep Hunter strong for Angle though). Instead he dogged it in the midcard with X-Pac and Kane to close out the year. He MAYBE had a shot with CB over Austin & Hunter mid-01 but the bigwigs weren't behind it. The KOTR 01 three-way killed him too. He was toast by the time they gave him the belt anyway regardless of Lucy the Mo Tucker dogg, ya'll!!

 

Booker needed a run with Austin to keep him on the level after the Alliance played out in late 01, but the NWO story nixed that and he went with Edge over frikkin shampoo at Mania 18. That's when Booker was done, period.

 

RVD's time was winning KOTR 02 then going over Undertaker at Slam for the gold. They went with Lesnar instead but he coulda stayed strong as Raw's no.1 boy (alongside maybe someone else, ha!) HHH made him look like shit at Unforgiven 02 and SurSeries 02. Armageddon 02 between RVD and Shawn coulda drawn, but my boy wasn't even on the card. That was when it was all over for Robby.

[Guest Three minutes]

Thanks for the input so far guys, I thought the topic was interesting because there are a lot of different answers for each wrestler, including some that I hadn't thought of like Booker T's run after the alliance story ended as pointed out by Dean and Foam. By the way this is not another excuse to bash HHH, a lot of these problems are because of the creative team and or top management (besides HHH). I think I'm going to copy and paste this thread for my Wrestling column one of these weeks

[evilhomer 0]

For Jericho, I always see the moment of truth for him being the Hell in a Cell with HHH. Everything was set for Jericho to go over, it was a good match with plenty of offence from both sides so a loss would not have hurt HHH at all. A win would have finally given Jericho "the big one" and showed that he does deserve a spot with the big boys. But instead he does the job, and gets the "good, but not good enough". He gave HHH everything he had and then some, and it still wasn't enough.

 

Sure he got the title after this, but the manner in which he got it (going over Rock & Austin) just looked like a forced push, something that I really couldn't believe in. This combined with the weak champion he portrayed plus the fiasco that was the build up and the championship match just threw more dirt onto the grave of his main even status.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

CHRIS JERICHO

 

Jericho's win over Austin and the Rock meant nothing as he eventually would be cleaning up Lucy poop and holding the belt for Hunter until he came back.

 

His moment of truth: The friendship with Stephanie - this was basically just a way to keep her involved in the main event and keep her vs. Hunter as the main storyline

 

 

RVD

 

RVD has a great promo against HHH where he mocked the whole water-spitting routine.

This should've been the beginning of a great feud, as RVD showed he could keep up with Hunter on the mic.

 

His moment of truth: Getting over Hunter in that promo - it was all downhill from there

 

 

BOOKER T

 

I think Booker was finally buried for good by jobbing to the 10 second delayed pedigree pin, but I think it started way before that.

 

His moment of truth: The supermarket fight with Austin - While hilarious to see Austin beating Booker with fresh produce, this did not nothing but provide comedy relief instead of adding to their feud. Booker was made to look like a joke.

 

 

KURT ANGLE

 

I agree with Angle's moment of truth being when the WWE fizzled out the great HHH-Steph-Angle love triangle. I mean it is rather ridiculous that an organization with Trish Stratus and Torrie Wilson has two guys fighting over the owner's cow daughter, but nonetheless, they could've had Angle not even attracted to her, just trying to get in good with Vince (storyline-wise) or a whole other number of motives.

 

Thank God Hunter realized the story was crap and he was better off staying in a stale heel character.

[Guest hunger4unger]

Booker T is/was injured too regularly.

 

Jericho was given the ball and sadly proved that he couldn't carry the main event at any PPV. He simply isn't a main event draw.

 

RVD doesn't work a brawling style and therfore doesn't fit in with the main event style.

 

Benoit has never been over enough really. Both Benoit & Jericho suffer the problem of whilst being worthy challengers, giving them the ball wouldn't draw/didn't draw.

 

Kurt Angle IS a main eventer who I think, when working heel, can carry any PPV main event feud.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Chris Jericho: I don't really think it was on particular moment. It was more like 5. They slighlty built him up and failed to pull the trigger so many individual times that he's damaged goods.

 

RVD: It seemed that his feud with the Undertaker after failing to win the belt would give him a slight boost, as he was still over enough to be in the main event, but it did the exact opposite. He went on from there to get tossed out of the 2002 Royal Rumble in a matter of seconds after getting a huge pop and getting into a feud with Goldust.

 

Booker T: Jobbing over and over again to the Rock started the trend, jobbing left and right to Steve Austin continued it, and jobbing to Hunter finished it.

[haVoc 0]

For Jericho, I always see the moment of truth for him being the Hell in a Cell with HHH. Everything was set for Jericho to go over, it was a good match with plenty of offence from both sides so a loss would not have hurt HHH at all. A win would have finally given Jericho "the big one" and showed that he does deserve a spot with the big boys. But instead he does the job, and gets the "good, but not good enough". He gave HHH everything he had and then some, and it still wasn't enough.

 

Sure he got the title after this, but the manner in which he got it (going over Rock & Austin) just looked like a forced push, something that I really couldn't believe in. This combined with the weak champion he portrayed plus the fiasco that was the build up and the championship match just threw more dirt onto the grave of his main even status.

Hell in a Cell was after Jericho's title reign.

[cabbageboy 0]

Jericho: I think Jericho was basically sabotaged from day 1. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: Chyna. Him jobbing to Chyna cleanly just killed his credibility in my eyes. He's never quite recovered from that angle.

 

Booker: There wasn't one moment, but I'd say having him as a wannabe Rock wasn't a good idea. Made him look 2nd rate and killed his heat.

 

RVD: Oh, they had their chances. I'd say RVD was very over up until about Unforgiven of last year. That match was pretty much the dagger.

[haVoc 0]

Booker T was DOA then, because that was the way he was booked in WCW and WWF fans already looked at him that way. Which made them want to see Rock beat him.

[Just call me Dan 0]

RVDs last straw was KOTR 2002. I knew it was all set for Brock to take it, but RVD should have capped off a summer feud with the Undertaker in which he finally beat him clean and took the title.

[Silence 0]

Jericho: I think Jericho was basically sabotaged from day 1. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: Chyna. Him jobbing to Chyna cleanly just killed his credibility in my eyes. He's never quite recovered from that angle.

Jericho also had to be PAIRED with Chyna in 2000, and then Eddie Guerrero was too. Things definitely didn't look too great for Jericho and Guerrero in 2000, especially considering that Jericho was starting to blow spots around that time and Guerrero had an arm injury that hindered his wrestling ability somewhat. Nice to see how far he's come along since then (aka the current WWE Champion).

 

As TheHulkster said, there were 5 opportunities that WWE blew on Jericho, including the one when Jericho jobbed to Chyna at Survivor Series, and then to Gangrel the next night on Raw, when earlier, it looked like he and The Rock were about to feud when Jericho arrived in WWE.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

RVD - should have had a singles PPV match and either beaten or come close to beating Steve Austin at the end of the Alliance days. Then won the title at sometime down the road, possibly from HHH a year later.

 

Chris Jericho - Should have been portrayed as more of a threat as the first Undisputed champion. Should have cleanly gone over Austin and Rock, then had a meaningful program with HHH, not playing 2nd fiddle to Stephanie, and maybe even won the Wrestlemania match. The hell in a cell where HHH beat him 2 months later was the nail in the coffin.

 

Booker T - Shouldn't have been jobbed out so often at the beginning of the Alliance angle, and should have won the World title from HHH at last year's Wrestlemania.

 

Chris Benoit - Either should have gone over The Rock for the World title back in 2000, or gone on a huge tear holding the IC title for over a year straight, defeating all comers, even main eventers. Being a kickass heel with Shane McMahon as his manager worked for him, even though I think Heyman would work better as manager. A Wrestlemania win this year might reverse some of the WWE's wrongdoing though.

 

Kurt Angle - Should have gone over Austin at Summerslam, not the next month. Also should have held the title longer and made constant, strong defenses of it. Maybe a heel turn on RVD while holding the belt would have worked, considering it was the 9/11 patriotic time and Angle was the American hero. They could have played up RVD as Angle's friend, but Angle being jealous of his pops, innovative offense, and being insecure about RVD as a potential challenger to Angle's belt.

[Papacita 0]

Jericho: I think Jericho was basically sabotaged from day 1. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: Chyna. Him jobbing to Chyna cleanly just killed his credibility in my eyes. He's never quite recovered from that angle.

I disagree with that. At the time, the feud was easily the #2 program on Raw and gave Jericho a lot more TV time to get more over with the crowd. That, and Chyna's win didn't really mean shit, because the fans completely turned on her leading into it. I'd say the feud hurt Chyna a lot more than it did to hurt Jericho, because he came out of it all rivaling the Rock in terms of crowd heat.

 

As for his "moment of truth"...I'll say the period from SummerSlam to No Mercy 2000. Triple H was in the middle of the transition period, Jericho was just starting to run out of steam as a face, and still had a score to settle with Hunter. I've always said that they should've had him steal Stephanie out from under HHH's and Angle's noses at SummerSlam. At Unforgiven, he'd face and beat HHH in a #1 contendership match, then go on to beat Rock for the belt at No Mercy (there's no way Angle should've gotten the belt before Chris). They probably could've had him revealed as the man who hit Austin and build to a Mania match between those two (or at least have Austin beat him for the title at No Way Out), but I dunno. WWF 2000 would've been much more enjoyable for me if they went that route with Jericho.

 

For RVD, I agree that he should've gone over Taker for the belt at SummerSlam. Either then, or he should've gone over HHH for the belt at Survivor Series.

 

Booker's moment of truth was SummerSlam 01. Once he jobbed to the Rock, he was dead in the water.

 

Benoit...I dunno. The neck injury did more to hurt his standing than booking did. They did fuck up his post-Rumble momentum last year by having him sit around and do nothing for 10 months.

 

For Angle...other than his first title reign (way too early, IMO) and their overreliance on comedy feuds as far as he's concerned, I have no problem with how Kurt's been used.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

Ah, time for me once again to reappear a-la the Rock for a few weeks before disappearing again.

 

BOOKER T- it was over for him as soon as he lost to Rocky in back-to-back PPV matches, even with his little buddy Shane helping him in the second. And they say Rock always puts people over- that's why I don't buy it. There was a flicker of hope after the Alliance angle and his return was built as a semi-big deal, but his mini-program with Austin wasn't long enough and come Mania he was fighting over shampoo with Edge. So the damage was done a long time ago, last year's charming "black people are inferior" storyline with HHH was really just a formality.

 

 

RVD- I like RVD but I don't think he ever SHOULD have won the belt, so I really didn't have a problem with how he was booked at first. In fact he was pretty well protected by Heyman in the early days- he even got to put up a fight against Brock when he was murdering everyone on Raw.

 

But after a while his weaknesses started to show up more and more. Whether his weaknesses were always there or HHH started going out of his way to expose them, is up for debate. But Rob dug his own grave when he crushed HHH's throat in the Elimination Chamber. After that you KNEW he wasn't going anywhere. The fact they completely toned down RVD's character didn't help. He became stale and boring because he was forced to (I'm talking promos, not matches).

 

Nail in the coffin was when they made him the damsel in distress to be saved by Shane in the Kane feud, instead of vice versa. Everyone involved in that came out looking like shit, except for Shane-O. It took return of darkside Undertaker to save Kane after that.

 

 

JERICHO- The Undisputed title reign did more damage to him then anything in his WWF career before that. He should've been potrayed as at least SOMEWHAT dangerous, but his wins over Rock and Austin were far from clean and he would barely beat guys like Rikishi. WE GET IT- HE CHEATS! Instead of showing him as a bad person, they showed him as a bad WRESTLER that only had the belts as a sham. Notice during Eddie's lie/cheat/steal campaign, they never made him look like that much of a pussy?

 

Then HHH returns, Jericho becomes Steph's valet, and he gets squashed at Mania and again in the Cell for good measure. The fact that he technically did beat HHH for the belt years before but HHH whined to have it reversed is never brought up. That might make it actually look like a 2-sided battle. It took Jericho literally a year to recover from that, and even then he jobbed to HBK.

 

 

BENOIT- A couple cockteased title wins in 2000 that were reversed established the choker image. The most seriously he was ever taken was against Austin before his injury- I think Austin put him over far more than Rock did and sure as fuck more than HHH.

 

So a year or so passes, and Benoit gets one of the worst return angles ever. After a few rounds of jobbing to the Bubba Ray and SPIKE, he goes to Smackdown, forms the "Two Stooges" tag team with Angle for awhile, and then does nothing for almost a year. Then he FINALLY starts getting booked properly when he wins the Rumble, only to go to Raw and be a complete pussy against HHH and HBK.

 

We're watching Benoit's moment of truth right now. Like last night when he gets in the ring with a chair, and goes down getting in one shot on Evolution. Do you think they'd book Rock or Austin or even Angle like that? Or a few weeks ago when HHH rambles on and on about choking at Mania while Benoit says, and does, NOTHING. Why couldn't he use his "you talk too much" line from last night THEN? They're setting him up to fail, even if he does win the belt at Mania.

[MixxMaster 0]

The thing is, I feel that ANY of those guys could still be very easily elevated and be considered HUGE. Especially with the short attention spans nowadays. Most would involve either:

A: Going over Hunter, or another of the established "Old School Veterans"(aka Taker, Austin, HBK, etc...) in a big fued, in which they are not treated like a bitch. Unfortunately, it still doesn't look like this will happen, which is a SEVERE detriment to the company.

B: Moving to the other brand, and setting up fresh fueds with Main Event stars, with the explicit motive of getting them over HUGE.

C: A New character for them, in a more powerful, dominating role, which would involve them to run roughsod over the roster, and make them look powerful.

D: Any combination of A-C.

Will any of the above happen? We could only hope. It would take something big, such as a ratings and sales disaster, losing some major TV deals, Older stars finally retiring(do you hear me, Taker and Austin?), some major competition finally, etc...

 

Jericho

Chris Jericho could really use a new gimmick, as the Y2J thing is outdated, and no longer serves a purpose. He has proven to still being capable of being over HUGE, what he needs is a big fued, in which he can go over big, and then proceed to have a dominating title reign, not a Honky Tonk one.

 

RVD

Rob Van Dam would have a tougher time, as it's very clear that he is no longer very motivated, thanks to the way he's been misused and abused. I feel the first of all, he needs to go to Smackdown!, and perhaps have a huge run as a cocky, arrogant, screw-the-rules heel. Paul Heyman would definately be a positive influence. The WWE really needs to let him have more of his innovative moves back, which is one of the main reasons that he's gotten bland. He's been so restricted in the ring, it's asinine. Perhaps some more powerful, yet fast moves, and absolutely NO typical WWE style moves(Spinebuster,Bulldog, PowerBomb, Lariat, etc...) He was never a punchy, brawler type, and that is what made him great and unique. He sorely needs more character development, as he's never really had much of one in the WWE. I feel that then he will be motivated again.

 

Booker T

Booker is rapidly running out of time, and would need to be salvaged FAST.

The only way I see him getting his day in the limelight, is by option A. If he doesn't go over Hunter, or another of the old guard, he's effectively screwed.

 

Chris Benoit

Benoit's time is NOW, and unfortunately, and not too surprisingly, is being made to look inferior thanks to the egos of HHH and HBK. He NEEDS to go over, and Have a STRONG, extended title reign, in which he goes over other ESTABLISHED Main Eventers, and not jobbers.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

RVD

Rob Van Dam would have a tougher time, as it's very clear that he is no longer very motivated, thanks to the way he's been misused and abused. I feel the first of all, he needs to go to Smackdown!, and perhaps have a huge run as a cocky, arrogant, screw-the-rules heel. Paul Heyman would definately be a positive influence. The WWE really needs to let him have more of his innovative moves back, which is one of the main reasons that he's gotten bland. He's been so restricted in the ring, it's asinine. Perhaps some more powerful, yet fast moves, and absolutely NO typical WWE style moves(Spinebuster,Bulldog, PowerBomb, Lariat, etc...) He was never a punchy, brawler type, and that is what made him great and unique. He sorely needs more character development, as he's never really had much of one in the WWE. I feel that then he will be motivated again.

Well the thing about RVD is is that with his flashy moves it's going to be hard for the fans to not cheer him and I don't think there is a face on SD were he could feud with and NOT get cheered 'cept for Eddie and even then I think it would be some face cheers for RVD.

[cabbageboy 0]

After this tag run with Booker is over RVD desperately needs to go to SMDN. His contract will be up then so it's a logical angle to do (Heyman signs him) if he resigns.

 

This might sound goofy but one problem Jericho has is that he gets involved too often with chicks and he never gets to nail them. Heh. Think about it, his partnership with Chyna was a bizarre co IC champ deal, but he was hardly nailing her. The whole Steph thing could have worked if Jericho was fucking her and making Trips pissed over it. I sense a similar vibe with this Trish angle, but hopefully Y2J gets a little this time around.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Jericho when he lost Hell In The Cell vs HHH. I knew he was going to job at WM, I didn't mind that. The reign was an abortion anyway but I don't think Vince was trying to bury him like many do (Brock's second reign was horrible, too, and he's the golden child.) But when Jericho jobbed AGAIN in the cell, bleh.

 

Booker, probably his moment passed by in WCW.

 

I don't think RVD /EVER/ had it.

[SuperJerk 0]

Jericho was given the ball and sadly proved that he couldn't carry the main event at any PPV. He simply isn't a main event draw.

You gotta be shitting me.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Kurt Angle IS a main eventer who I think, when working heel, can carry any PPV main event feud.

I noticed that you said nothing about the drawing abilities of Angle, but were quick to determine those of Benoit and Jericho. Convenient.

[Enigma 0]

Jericho was given the ball and sadly proved that he couldn't carry the main event at any PPV. He simply isn't a main event draw.

Pardon me, but he had a pretty damn great WWF Title match with The Rock at Royal Rumble 2002. His match at No Way Out against Steve Austin wasn't that great, but Austin later admitted himself that he wasn't into the match because he knew of the ending (the nWo run-in) so he felt like putting no effort forth. And we all know what happened against Triple H at WrestleMania 18.

 

Jericho was set up to fail because: 1) They never gave him any clean victories (he had to cheat to beat MAVEN, think about that), 2) They never gave him any credible beat downs that established him as a feared Champion, and 3) They often put him in positions where he was clearly pinned after a ref bump.

 

I think we all know wHHHo was behind all this anyways, so it's not like it should shock anyone. Hunter's had a bounty on Jericho's career since August 9th, 1999. Was Jericho given the ball? Yes. But HHH and the WWF (hey, they're the ones who let HHH run wild) soaked that ball in butter.

[Papacita 0]

Think about it, his partnership with Chyna was a bizarre co IC champ deal, but he was hardly nailing her.

Can't say I wasn't pleased about that.

 

He's got a point about Steph though. That would've put a lot of heat on the Mania match with HHH if he was banging her.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Jericho was given the ball and sadly proved that he couldn't carry the main event at any PPV. He simply isn't a main event draw.

Does this guy realize what forum he's posting in?