Where does Martin Brodeur rank on the All-time

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

The guy has 3 cups, maybe a 4th on the way, youngest to 400 wins with Roy in reach if he stays healthy and all

 

Granted head to head in the playoffs Roy did beat him in the ultimate game (that would be Game 7 of a Stanley Cup final)

 

Hell he never beat Mike Richter and the Rangers in the postseason (though that would have ended if the Rangers made A playoff run in recent years) which sort of holds him back in the regard of NY area media/fans (which is stupid as its 4-1 in terms of playing in Cup finals, let alone 3-1 in terms of Cups won, between the two and while I'll take Richter in the playoffs I wouldn't mind Martin as my net-minder for a Cup run)

 

So where does he rank? Is he overratted because of the system he plays in (see Steve Young for an example of someone with good talent that may have benifited from a system that fit his needs) and should not be in the same sentence as Patrick Roy? Or does he belong in say the top 5 all-time goalie conversation?

 

Steve

[Youth N Asia 0]

When his career is all said and done I could see him top 5. Top 8 at least. The guy just flat out wins.

[the max 0]

He's slightly overrated because of the system, but his career numbers are tremendous.

 

He'll pass Roy for wins, no doubt.

[C Dubya 04 0]

A fourth cup isn't on the way this year, but I think he's a top fiver. That's means a lot coming from a life long Flyers fan.

[nl5xsk1 0]

He's slightly overrated because of the system, but his career numbers are tremendous.

 

He'll pass Roy for wins, no doubt.

If I hadn't been at lunch, this is exactly what I'd have said.

 

If I need to win a game 7, I'd want Brodeur in there only if it was behind a team playing the Devils trap scheme. If it was in a more open, end-to-end game, give me Roy (or Esposito or Dryden) over him any day of the week.

 

All time, Brodeur is easily in the top 10, and top 5 if we're talking modern era only.

[Lightning Flik 0]

I think Brodeur is at least as good as 10th all-time. He is damn well good, but the traping system does help him quite a bit. He'll definitely pass Roy in the wins easily, and I think Brodeur will also probably have the longest career games played out of any goalie, just because the guy rarely gets injuried and he definitely plays a ton of games.

 

If the case was open ended hockey, I'd rather have Grant Fuhr than Brodeur. Just because I know Fuhr would make the key saves in those situations because he always was doing so. ...no, I don't consider Fuhr better than Brodeur, just in this situation he was.

[The Czech Republic 0]

My sig says it all. Put Brodeur on a different team and let's see how great he really is. Grant Fuhr and Patrick Roy were better goalies and didn't have all the help from the team's boring defensive system like one Mr. Brodeur. Parent, Roy, Fuhr, and Belfour are the best goaltenders of the modern era.

[nl5xsk1 0]

Parent, Roy, Fuhr, and Belfour are the best goaltenders of the modern era.

No Kenny Dryden? Or Tony Esposito? I'd probably put both above Brodeur.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Parent, Roy, Fuhr, and Belfour are the best goaltenders of the modern era.

No Kenny Dryden? Or Tony Esposito? I'd probably put both above Brodeur.

Uh, he said of the Modern Era only...

 

Hell, I'm beginning to wonder if Brodeur WOULD make top 10 of goalies. I mean seriousl, 4 goalies already out rank him in the Modern Era, and you could probably get 5 more before the modern era.

 

Is he really 10th material then? If you think about it that way, he probably isn't.

[The Czech Republic 0]

What's the definition of Modern Era, btw? I think 1967 is what we agree on.

[Lightning Flik 0]

What's the definition of Modern Era, btw? I think 1967 is what we agree on.

Not really thinking tonight, because that actually would be true...

 

Still though, can Brodeur be classified as Top 10? Since there's about 9 guys already ahead of him, and the case can be made for probably 5 guys who can have that same 10th spot?

 

I don't really think so. Especially considering who he plays for.

[CanadianChris 0]

He'd be 10th on my list, behind (in no particular order) Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante, Terry Sawchuk, Patrick Roy, Vladislav Tretiak, Ken Dryden, Dominik Hasek, Grant Fuhr, and Billy Smith. He'll probably have a lot of records by the time his career is over, but it's hard to compare him to other great goalies, because he plays behind a defensive system more stifling than any other.

[treble 0]

The only goalie of the past 15 or so years I'd take ahead of Brodeur is Patrick Roy. It's hard to compare goalies from different eras due to differences in equipment and the like, but there's no way you can keep someone who's won 3 Stanley Cups and an Olympic Gold medal out of the top 10, regardless of the system he plays in.

[CanadianChris 0]

The only goalie of the past 15 or so years I'd take ahead of Brodeur is Patrick Roy. It's hard to compare goalies from different eras due to differences in equipment and the like, but there's no way you can keep someone who's won 3 Stanley Cups and an Olympic Gold medal out of the top 10, regardless of the system he plays in.

Sure, he's won three Cups, but how many Conn Smythes? Zero. Who won those trophies when the Devils won the Cup? Claude Lemieux (a defensive forward), Scott Stevens (a defenseman) and Jean-Sebastien Giguere (the OPPOSING goalie).

 

How many Vezinas? One (exactly as many as Jim Carey and Olaf Kolzig, for those keeping track). Roy won three; Hasek, five. Hell, Ed Belfour's won more (two).

 

No, I say the championships are a misleading argument. Take him out of the system, and he doesn't do nearly as well. His best attribute is his puck-handling, which is why he fits in the Jersey system so well.

[Brush with Greatness 0]

Okay, in reality, as far as technique and how he converts to today's game, Martin Brodeur is probably the third or possibly fourth best goalie of all time behind Roy, Hasek, and possibly Belfour.

 

And yes, you read that correctly, guys like Sawchuk, Espo, Dryden, Plante, Parent, etc. wouldn't crack the list.

 

The reason for this is that goalies, far more than players have evolved so much over the past few decades (and it's not just the equipment). Watching old tapes of some of the goalies I mentioned you notice that if you stuck that goalie in today's game he would be terrible. Those guys had terrible technique and the position at that time was pretty much 100% reliant upon reflexes (which could be argued was a good thing).

 

The player evolvement is minimal, apart from the way guys shoot the puck today (which just goes to show how much further the goalies have come along).

 

So, in comparing goalies skill abilities and talents head to head, I would rank Brodeur third or fourth.

 

Now, if you are talking about how they fare all time, comparing what they accomplished in their era (I don't mean strictly in a wins sense), that is a different story. I don't think he would crack the top 5. But a case could be made for Brodeur from there.

 

One other thing that everyone has to realize is that almost all of these goalies mentioned benefitted largely from the system they were playing in and not only Brodeur. Don't kid yourselves, the Canadiens of the 70's were playing the trap long before it was labelled the trap (where the hell do you think Lemaire learned it to begin with - although with guys like Lapointe and Lafleur it looked a lot more flashy) and Dryden benefitted greatly from that.

 

Hell, take a look at Dryden's backup Bunny Laroque and his numbers playing with that same team. In the three seasons from 75-78 Laroque posted a 57-6-11 record. Thats six losses in 74 games. And you thought Manny Legace was a good backup. Also, one of those seasons Laroque posted a GAA of 2.09 in 26 games to lead the league. And who the hell was Bunny Laroque?

 

Fuhr, Plante, and Smith also all benefited from having the most talented teams in the league playing in front of them. You think Brodeur has an easy job because he has a good defence? New Jersey lacks offence and Brodeur giving up one or two goals in a game could mean a loss for his team. Thats a lot of pressure. Fuhr on the other hand had a safety net, so to speak, and knew that a soft goal here or there wasn't going to hurt them (apart from Steve Smith's blunder in 86). As a result, he could play more relaxed and had less pressure.

 

When he retires, I think Brodeur will go down as one of the top 3 goaltenders of all time (along with Roy and Sawchuk) and rightfully so.

[Dogbert 0]

In my opinion, Brodeur is well on his way to becoming THE man, as far as goaltending is concerned. This guy could be the one that all goalies are compared to.

[nl5xsk1 0]

I feel that the people that want to call Brodeur the greatest ever are the same people that want to call Barry Bonds the greatest baseball player ever. It's like people always want the player from right now to be the best, and not someone from a different era.

 

BwG, your statement that an oldschool goalie placed in today's game would be terrible is asinine. Maybe if you took a guy like Tretiak and just dropped him in, yes, he'd be bad. But he'd also be playing a style that's 180-degrees different than he'd played his entire life. If you took an old-school goalie and gave him a lifetime to learn a style of play (the butterfly) and gave him a nice full mask and huge pads, he'd be every bit as good as a modern goalie. Imagine how much quicker their reflexes had to be to make stand-up kick saves with small pads. Yes, I'll admit that the players didn't shoot as fast or as hard, but all things considered, to say that a goalie like Dryden or Tretiak, if given the same time to learn the style of play that the modern goalie utilizes, would be 'terrible' is a laugh.

 

And how can you say that player development is minimal? New sticks make the puck fly that much faster. Year-round training makes the players that much stronger. (hell, the fact that they don't smoke in the locker rooms makes a difference alone). And the average size is up like 2" and 25 lbs.

 

Lastly, how can you name the all-time great goalies and not name Plante or Vezina? They named the trophy after Vezina for a reason.

[Slayer 0]

I feel that the people that want to call Brodeur the greatest ever are the same people that want to call Barry Bonds the greatest baseball player ever.  It's like people always want the player from right now to be the best, and not someone from a different era.

For me, it isn't about not wanting an older era player to be the best ever, it's that I lack any direct witness to said player. I've watched Bonds play as one of the best ever; all I have to run with for, say, Babe Ruth are his stats (which are good) and lore (which is inflated)

[The Czech Republic 0]

The only goalie of the past 15 or so years I'd take ahead of Brodeur is Patrick Roy.  It's hard to compare goalies from different eras due to differences in equipment and the like, but there's no way you can keep someone who's won 3 Stanley Cups

4.

Montreal '86, Montreal '93, Colorado '96, Colorado '01.

 

EDIT: Wait. Were you talking about Brodeur or Roy? If Brodeur, I thought Terreri was in net in 1995.

[treble 0]

Yeah, I was talking about Brodeur. Terreri was the backup in '95 (and in '99 for that matter, too).

 

Also, I think it's unfair to say it's mostly the system he plays in that makes him such a good goalie. Especially if we're going to put Grant Fuhr in the Hall of Fame for playing for a team that scored 5 goals a night and just needed him to allow less than that.