Just for fun

[Steviekick 0]

DKR isn't canon, for the simple reason of Gordon's wife.  She's one of his main motivations in the book, remember?  "I just think of Sarah..."  Which was all shot to hell when Joker killed her at the end of No Man's Land. 

 

Plus, if you accept DKR as canon... then you've probably also gotta take Dark Knight Strikes Back too.  And who in their right minds would want to open that can o' worms?

Very true. I've always been under the assumption that DKR is not canon. Just because it's a crowning achievement in the super hero doesn't necessarily mean that it's canon. Writers just like making references to it because it's an alternate ending for the Batman mythology, just like how Magog from Kingdom Come appeared in the Superman series.

It doesn't matter if it's canon.

 

It's the most influential comic of the 80's. It pretty much defines who Batman is from that point on.

 

It's canonical status is a moot point.

I personally think that Batman Year One is more influential to shaping Batman. I wouldn't go as far as saying that DKR is the influential comic of the 80s (but definitely the second)...that title is sole property of Marvel's Count Duckula.

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, my vote would be Watchmen. It is a much better story, and this is coming from someone who swears by Frank Miller.

[Special K 0]

Well, I sort of misspoke, while I don't consider DKR canon, the fact that DC wouldn't commit either way suggests that THEY thought it was true to the characters, and none of the situations were unreasonable. There.

 

Honestly, the arguements somewhat silly, because in the miriad different situations where the two would fight, there are all kind of variables. Will Supes really fight with all his power? Suffice to say, it can probably go either way at any time. Batman's ruthlessness, and close relationship with Supes gives him a certain advantage over him that he would lack against a simlarly powered foe like, say Doomsday.

 

This is a total aside, but does anyone find this to be true: In supes own books I find him a little drab and boring, since it's hard to build and sustain suspense and conflict in a godly powerful, morally and emotionally unwavering hero. Yet, in guest appearances, and especially elseworl stuff like DKR and Kingdom Come, he's an awesome character, as the complete paragon who other characters can really play off of. I guess, when he's the focus, he's not that interesting in the long term, but others' reactions to and feelings about him (especially Bats) are great. And he's not boring at all when he's not the focus of the action, when we're not privy to his internal monologue. He's just a monstrous presence.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

DKR isn't canon, for the simple reason of Gordon's wife.  She's one of his main motivations in the book, remember?  "I just think of Sarah..."  Which was all shot to hell when Joker killed her at the end of No Man's Land. 

 

Plus, if you accept DKR as canon... then you've probably also gotta take Dark Knight Strikes Back too.  And who in their right minds would want to open that can o' worms?

Very true. I've always been under the assumption that DKR is not canon. Just because it's a crowning achievement in the super hero doesn't necessarily mean that it's canon. Writers just like making references to it because it's an alternate ending for the Batman mythology, just like how Magog from Kingdom Come appeared in the Superman series.

It doesn't matter if it's canon.

 

It's the most influential comic of the 80's. It pretty much defines who Batman is from that point on.

 

It's canonical status is a moot point.

I personally think that Batman Year One is more influential to shaping Batman. I wouldn't go as far as saying that DKR is the influential comic of the 80s (but definitely the second)...that title is sole property of Marvel's Count Duckula.

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, my vote would be Watchmen. It is a much better story, and this is coming from someone who swears by Frank Miller.

DKR is far, far, more influential, and this is from someone who thinks B:YO is a better story.

 

Hell, it's the reason Batman stories went from third person narrators to first person with Batman personally giving us his thoughts.

[Steviekick 0]

Yeah, but its not like DKR was the first time a comic was ever done in the first person.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Yeah, but its not like DKR was the first time a comic was ever done in the first person.

Yeah, but it's the comic that made that THE style for Batman.

[Steviekick 0]

Still, Watchmen was much more influential than DKR.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Still, Watchmen was much more influential than DKR.

Maybe, but it was more "the ultimate super hero comic" rather than a driving influence on a character. It influenced a darker, ore cynical style of storytelling. TDKR made definite, noticeable, and nearly immeadiate changes in Batman comics.

 

It doesn't matter which was MORE influential, it was a work that DEFINED DC's most beloved character.

[Steviekick 0]

Still, Watchmen was much more influential than DKR.

Maybe, but it was more "the ultimate super hero comic" rather than a driving influence on a character. It influenced a darker, ore cynical style of storytelling. TDKR made definite, noticeable, and nearly immeadiate changes in Batman comics.

True, but DKR was followed up with Year One, which had more direct influence on Batman from that point on. Batman's grittier/darker evolution was very gradual post-Crisis, when compared to Superman and Wonder Woman who got complete rebboots from John Byrne and George Perez, respectively.

 

It doesn't matter which was MORE influential, it was a work that DEFINED DC's most beloved character.

Wouldn't that be Superman?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Still, Watchmen was much more influential than DKR.

Maybe, but it was more "the ultimate super hero comic" rather than a driving influence on a character. It influenced a darker, ore cynical style of storytelling. TDKR made definite, noticeable, and nearly immeadiate changes in Batman comics.

True, but DKR was followed up with Year One, which had more direct influence on Batman from that point on. Batman's grittier/darker evolution was very gradual post-Crisis, when compared to Superman and Wonder Woman who got complete rebboots from John Byrne and George Perez, respectively.

 

It doesn't matter which was MORE influential, it was a work that DEFINED DC's most beloved character.

Wouldn't that be Superman?

B:YO itself was heavily influenced by TDKR. Look at the choice for writer for God sakes.

 

It is nowhere near as influential to the Bat Mythos and it's ignorant to continue to suggest otherwise.

[Steviekick 0]

The whole reason why DC chose Frank Miller for either the DKR or Year One project was because of how much ass he was kicking with Daredevil over for Marvel. His work on Daredevil is what influenced DKR, Year One, and everone else who followed him. And both were obviously influenced by Will Eisner's The Spirit. Back to Batman, a great deal of his visual storytelling in DKR is directly lifted from Elektra Assasin (Yes, I know it was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz, but Miller was a definite part of the artistic process, as he writes very detailed scripts with suggested page layout).

 

The truth is that Miller was did the same thing for Batman that he did with Daredevil. He revised and gritified the origins of the characters in the regular ongoing series, but did his most artistic work with the characters in the graphic novel (Daredevil, DKR).

[Guest BDC]

Just wanted to throw in that Batman had pretty much everything figured out in Kingdom Come with the exception of Capt. Marvel's involvement. In that way, he had every hero beaten. Granted he didn't go toe-to-toe with anyone in it, but I just wanted to point that out.

[Betty Houle 0]

Just wanted to throw in that Batman had pretty much everything figured out in Kingdom Come with the exception of Capt. Marvel's involvement. In that way, he had every hero beaten. Granted he didn't go toe-to-toe with anyone in it, but I just wanted to point that out.

Maybe. KINGDOM COME stunk though.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The whole reason why DC chose Frank Miller for either the DKR or Year One project was because of how much ass he was kicking with Daredevil over for Marvel. His work on Daredevil is what influenced DKR, Year One, and everone else who followed him. And both were obviously influenced by Will Eisner's The Spirit. Back to Batman, a great deal of his visual storytelling in DKR is directly lifted from Elektra Assasin (Yes, I know it was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz, but Miller was a definite part of the artistic process, as he writes very detailed scripts with suggested page layout).

 

The truth is that Miller was did the same thing for Batman that he did with Daredevil. He revised and gritified the origins of the characters in the regular ongoing series, but did his most artistic work with the characters in the graphic novel (Daredevil, DKR).

Frank Miller wasn't chosen, for DKR. It was HIS IDEA.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Just wanted to throw in that Batman had pretty much everything figured out in Kingdom Come with the exception of Capt. Marvel's involvement.  In that way, he had every hero beaten.  Granted he didn't go toe-to-toe with anyone in it, but I just wanted to point that out.

Maybe. KINGDOM COME stunk though.

I'd say it's overrated, but it hardly stunk.

 

But this is coming from the poster who would rather just agree to disagree, then provide an actual basis of reasoning for their asinine opinions on TDKR.

[Betty Houle 0]

Just wanted to throw in that Batman had pretty much everything figured out in Kingdom Come with the exception of Capt. Marvel's involvement.  In that way, he had every hero beaten.  Granted he didn't go toe-to-toe with anyone in it, but I just wanted to point that out.

Maybe. KINGDOM COME stunk though.

I'd say it's overrated, but it hardly stunk.

 

But this is coming from the poster who would rather just agree to disagree, then provide an actual basis of reasoning for their asinine opinions on TDKR.

I don't recall exactly to what you're referring to but I'd be happy to elaborate on my thoughts on KC. There's not much of a story. it doesn't move me in the slightest. Waid got the characters of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman pretty close. And that's it. The story is so simplistic and uninteresting. As a collection of pretty pictures, I could see people liking it (although I'm not a fan of Ross's super realistic art). Otherwise, you'll have to explain to me why it's so great.

 

Then again, Waid's work leaves me pretty cold for the most part.

[Guest netslob]

Superman can never be cool. He's been beaten by Batman too many times decisively.

 

DC shouldn't be surprised when people call him "lame."

that's because if DC tries to change him, even just a little, the fans lash out and cry and bitch. christ, they got letters when they let him grow his hair out.

[Steviekick 0]

The whole reason why DC chose Frank Miller for either the DKR or Year One project was because of how much ass he was kicking with Daredevil over for Marvel. His work on Daredevil is what influenced DKR, Year One, and everone else who followed him. And both were obviously influenced by Will Eisner's The Spirit. Back to Batman, a great deal of his visual storytelling in DKR is directly lifted from Elektra Assasin (Yes, I know it was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz, but Miller was a definite part of the artistic process, as he writes very detailed scripts with suggested page layout).

 

The truth is that Miller was did the same thing for Batman that he did with Daredevil. He revised and gritified the origins of the characters in the regular ongoing series, but did his most artistic work with the characters in the graphic novel (Daredevil, DKR).

Frank Miller wasn't chosen, for DKR. It was HIS IDEA.

Sorry for offending you. By "chose" I meant "decided to go ahead and print."

[Guest The Midnight Rocking Warrior]

Actually, having read them both I'd say DKR and Kingdom Come are the two best stories ever put out by DC.

[Guest The Midnight Rocking Warrior]

Ok, new hero................ Superman

 

Lost to Batman ( So this doen't take another 2 pages )

Beat Thor

Beat Warbird

Knocked out Wonderman

Lost to Lobo

Beat Lobo in a rematch ( Correct me if I'm wrong)

Beat The Hulk ( Marvel vs. Dc screwjob)

Beat Wonderwoman in "A league of one"

 

Anything else?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Just wanted to throw in that Batman had pretty much everything figured out in Kingdom Come with the exception of Capt. Marvel's involvement.  In that way, he had every hero beaten.  Granted he didn't go toe-to-toe with anyone in it, but I just wanted to point that out.

Maybe. KINGDOM COME stunk though.

I'd say it's overrated, but it hardly stunk.

 

But this is coming from the poster who would rather just agree to disagree, then provide an actual basis of reasoning for their asinine opinions on TDKR.

I don't recall exactly to what you're referring to but I'd be happy to elaborate on my thoughts on KC. There's not much of a story. it doesn't move me in the slightest. Waid got the characters of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman pretty close. And that's it. The story is so simplistic and uninteresting. As a collection of pretty pictures, I could see people liking it (although I'm not a fan of Ross's super realistic art). Otherwise, you'll have to explain to me why it's so great.

 

Then again, Waid's work leaves me pretty cold for the most part.

You never really elaborated on WHY you didn't think the final fight of DKR was possible.

 

It is extremely well-written, BTW, with Superman's overconfidence in his own omnipitance, and his steadfast belief (even as he's fighting The Batman) that there's no way Batman truly intends to go toe-to-toe with him cost him the match.

[Guest SP-1]

Kingdom Come had plenty of story. It just wasn't your run of the mill commercial fiction comic story. The universe wasn't ending, there was no enormous cosmic threat. No, KC is closer to the main themes of X-Men, I'd say. A world where metahumans and humans are finally about to come into conflict. Where superheroes are split and their descendants are just destroying things. Where man is at the mercy of a force greater than itself and doesn't know what to do with it, especially not after what happens in Kansas in the beginning of the book. These conflicts are mirrored in Pastor McKay's relationship with God as he has to face it while he watches the events unfold. It's a story about Superman as he is meant to be: THE leader of the superhero community, whom all others look to. A story about DC's biggest characters facing the challenges of growing old and maintaining their leadership because they must.

 

KC is almost purely a character driven book. That doesn't disqualify it from having a story. It may not be the kind of story you like, but Waid nailed the conflicts he was looking to, and he did a fantastic job of it.

[Steviekick 0]

SpiderPoet nailed KC. I really liked the McKay/Spectre subplot.

[Guest SP-1]

One day I'm going to ask Waid if he intended for Captain Marvel to have a Christ parallel. It'd be easy to pick out.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

No matter how tough Batman is you know he can't beat HHH. He'd be doing the job to him in no time cause he's The Game. ::runs away::

[Special K 0]

Batman is quick to pick up on others' weaknesses. He would notice HHH's freakishly small calves and kick him soundly in the shins, snapping his tibia.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

Not when Steph is the head writer of the comic book he won't.

[Ravenbomb 0]

man, I'm way behind on my comic book stuff. So this Watchmen thing is good?

[Steviekick 0]

man, I'm way behind on my comic book stuff. So this Watchmen thing is good?

Is it good? It's a brilliantly written comic story. Read it now.