15 Hours to go

[Vanhalen 0]

Yep, its 15 hours to go, until the final end of the cold war, russia vs usa, whatever you want to call it, as the final members of the warsaw pact become part of the European community from midnight tonight, and essentially unify East and West europe, who'd have thought this would have all happened within 15 years, I mean its only 15 years ago the East and West Germany were split by the Berlin wall, and Russia was on the edge of collapse, its a truly remarkable day for the world.

 

It is hard for those of us living in Western European countries with decades or centuries of stable democracy to appreciate just what an event 1 May will be for the nations of Eastern and Central Europe who will join the European Union.

 

Millions of new EU members can still remember communism

The phrase "end of the Cold War" has been much over-used, on many occasions since the fall of the Berlin Wall and collapse of communism, but this time it will not be hyperbole.

 

The entry of eight former communist states into the EU really is, for them, the final step across the Rubicon they began to cross 15 or 16 years ago.

 

In the existing EU states the debate about Europe centres on "voting weights" and the wording of a constitution, the division of power between Brussels and the member states, or whether more decisions should be taken by majority voting rather than unanimously.

 

But in the new states these are trivial matters compared to the historic importance of simply being members.

 

Years of suffering

 

Three of those countries - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - were not just satellites of the Soviet Union but part of it, for half a century. Slovenia was part of communist Yugoslavia.

 

Hungary, Poland and Czechoslovakia (now entering the EU as two states, the Czech Republic and Slovakia) were occupied by Soviet troops after World War II and remained under Kremlin control until the revolutions of 1989.

 

Stalin's satellites have moved to a different orbit

Attempts to break out from Soviet control had ended in bloodshed in all three of these countries.

 

A national uprising in Hungary, including an attempt to leave the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact, ended with the deaths of thousands when Soviet troops invaded in 1956.

 

The flowering of "socialism with a human face" in Czechoslovakia in 1968 was also crushed by Soviet tanks.

 

And the free trade union movement, Solidarity, in Poland in 1980-81 was ended by martial law, in which Polish generals carried out the Kremlin's wishes.

 

Baltic battleground

 

The three Baltic nations suffered even greater indignities after they were absorbed into the USSR under a secret pact between Stalin and Hitler.

 

After the war they were flooded with Russian nationals as part of a deliberate Moscow policy of diluting their populations and inextricably linking their economies with the Russian one.

 

Latvians ended up comprising under half of the republic's population, and Estonians just 60% in their own country. Russian was the official language. All policies were dictated from Moscow.

 

In 1988 the three republics experienced a stunning national revival as Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev loosened the reins and allowed so-called "popular fronts" to be founded.

 

These became mass movements that led the way to independence - though they had to wait for a failed pro-communist coup in Moscow in August 1991 before the Kremlin finally let them go.

 

It's against this background - of colonial rule, oppression, resentment, and liberation - that entry into the EU has to be seen.

 

The cultures of many new states were buried for generations

None of the new nations expects "Brussels" to be a new "Kremlin". They know no one is going to force them to stop speaking their own languages, or impose a foreign culture and way of life on them.

 

Their influence on Brussels decision-making may end up small, but at least their voice will be heard, not brutally silenced.

 

And the economic system they are joining is one they were cut off from when they were annexed by the Soviet Union, and longed to return to.

 

Above all, the eight new EU nations from central and eastern Europe "feel" themselves to be true Europeans - indeed, at the heart of European thinking and culture.

 

Prague, Bratislava and Budapest were mainstream European cities, part of "Mitteleuropa", with its traditions of coffee-houses and music and intellectual ferment.

 

Communist shroud

 

All of these nations feel slighted even to be referred to as "east" Europeans - with the hint, inherent in the term, of mediocrity, lack of culture and underdevelopment.

 

For too long they were seen as Soviet lackeys - and few ordinary people in the West were aware that the communist system imposed on them totally obscured a deeper and ancient "west" European legacy.

 

Since they achieved independence, knowledge of the English language has flourished, while teaching of Russian (previously obligatory) has all but ended. Eight proud nations have turned their heads 180 degrees and now look decisively westwards.

 

All eight have terrible economic and environmental legacies to overcome. They are still littered with inefficient factories, built for the communist era which had little regard for satisfying consumers or protecting the environment.

 

Positive Europeans

 

Some still find it hard to shake off Soviet-era notions of human rights, and there remain concerns about the treatment of minorities (Roma in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russians in Estonia and Latvia).

 

But few people in these countries have any doubts at all about where their future lies.

 

And joining the EU, they hope, will not only help them improve their economies and environment, but allow them to re-take their rightful place in Europe.

 

Having once been ejected from that position, they are likely to prove much more enthusiastic "Europeans" than many of the people in the existing EU states, whose comfortable and increasingly prosperous lives over the past half-century have often made us forget how valuable peace and democracy are

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Dood.

 

The cold war was officially over when the USSR ceased to exist!

[Vanhalen 0]

You dozy sod, havent you heard of the Warsaw pact?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Very difficult to believe in the Warsaw Pact's actual effectiveness when the country that started it up kinda dissolved into anarchy only to reemerage as a shadow of its former self

[Guest MikeSC]

Yep, its 15 hours to go, until the final end of the cold war, russia vs usa, whatever you want to call it, as the final members of the warsaw pact become part of the European community from midnight tonight, and essentially unify East and West europe, who'd have thought this would have all happened within 15 years, I mean its only 15 years ago the East and West Germany were split by the Berlin wall, and Russia was on the edge of collapse, its a truly remarkable day for the world.

 

It is hard for those of us living in Western European countries with decades or centuries of stable democracy to appreciate just what an event 1 May will be for the nations of Eastern and Central Europe who will join the European Union.

 

Millions of new EU members can still remember communism

The phrase "end of the Cold War" has been much over-used, on many occasions since the fall of the Berlin Wall and collapse of communism, but this time it will not be hyperbole.

 

The entry of eight former communist states into the EU really is, for them, the final step across the Rubicon they began to cross 15 or 16 years ago.

 

In the existing EU states the debate about Europe centres on "voting weights" and the wording of a constitution, the division of power between Brussels and the member states, or whether more decisions should be taken by majority voting rather than unanimously.

 

But in the new states these are trivial matters compared to the historic importance of simply being members.

 

Years of suffering

 

Three of those countries - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - were not just satellites of the Soviet Union but part of it, for half a century. Slovenia was part of communist Yugoslavia.

 

Hungary, Poland and Czechoslovakia (now entering the EU as two states, the Czech Republic and Slovakia) were occupied by Soviet troops after World War II and remained under Kremlin control until the revolutions of 1989.

 

Stalin's satellites have moved to a different orbit

Attempts to break out from Soviet control had ended in bloodshed in all three of these countries.

 

A national uprising in Hungary, including an attempt to leave the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact, ended with the deaths of thousands when Soviet troops invaded in 1956.

 

The flowering of "socialism with a human face" in Czechoslovakia in 1968 was also crushed by Soviet tanks.

 

And the free trade union movement, Solidarity, in Poland in 1980-81 was ended by martial law, in which Polish generals carried out the Kremlin's wishes.

 

Baltic battleground

 

The three Baltic nations suffered even greater indignities after they were absorbed into the USSR under a secret pact between Stalin and Hitler.

 

After the war they were flooded with Russian nationals as part of a deliberate Moscow policy of diluting their populations and inextricably linking their economies with the Russian one.

 

Latvians ended up comprising under half of the republic's population, and Estonians just 60% in their own country. Russian was the official language. All policies were dictated from Moscow.

 

In 1988 the three republics experienced a stunning national revival as Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev loosened the reins and allowed so-called "popular fronts" to be founded.

 

These became mass movements that led the way to independence - though they had to wait for a failed pro-communist coup in Moscow in August 1991 before the Kremlin finally let them go.

 

It's against this background - of colonial rule, oppression, resentment, and liberation - that entry into the EU has to be seen.

 

The cultures of many new states were buried for generations

None of the new nations expects "Brussels" to be a new "Kremlin". They know no one is going to force them to stop speaking their own languages, or impose a foreign culture and way of life on them.

 

Their influence on Brussels decision-making may end up small, but at least their voice will be heard, not brutally silenced.

 

And the economic system they are joining is one they were cut off from when they were annexed by the Soviet Union, and longed to return to.

 

Above all, the eight new EU nations from central and eastern Europe "feel" themselves to be true Europeans - indeed, at the heart of European thinking and culture.

 

Prague, Bratislava and Budapest were mainstream European cities, part of "Mitteleuropa", with its traditions of coffee-houses and music and intellectual ferment.

 

Communist shroud

 

All of these nations feel slighted even to be referred to as "east" Europeans - with the hint, inherent in the term, of mediocrity, lack of culture and underdevelopment.

 

For too long they were seen as Soviet lackeys - and few ordinary people in the West were aware that the communist system imposed on them totally obscured a deeper and ancient "west" European legacy.

 

Since they achieved independence, knowledge of the English language has flourished, while teaching of Russian (previously obligatory) has all but ended. Eight proud nations have turned their heads 180 degrees and now look decisively westwards.

 

All eight have terrible economic and environmental legacies to overcome. They are still littered with inefficient factories, built for the communist era which had little regard for satisfying consumers or protecting the environment.

 

Positive Europeans

 

Some still find it hard to shake off Soviet-era notions of human rights, and there remain concerns about the treatment of minorities (Roma in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russians in Estonia and Latvia).

 

But few people in these countries have any doubts at all about where their future lies.

 

And joining the EU, they hope, will not only help them improve their economies and environment, but allow them to re-take their rightful place in Europe.

 

Having once been ejected from that position, they are likely to prove much more enthusiastic "Europeans" than many of the people in the existing EU states, whose comfortable and increasingly prosperous lives over the past half-century have often made us forget how valuable peace and democracy are

BTW, on behalf of America, who provided W. Europe with those "decades of stable democracy", you're quite welcome.

 

Even though you are a bunch of ingrates.

-=Mike

[Vanhalen 0]

Hmmmmmmmm, not sure you know your Western European history too well there mate, try reading up on the History of Nato and the Benelux treaty

[Guest MikeSC]

Hmmmmmmmm, not sure you know your Western European history too well there mate, try reading up on the History of Nato and the Benelux treaty

Try reading up on who provided the military assistance to prevent the USSR from over-running Europe.

 

Read up on the Marshall Plan.

 

That is all.

-=Mike

[BX 0]

You mean the descendants of the anglos, saxons, scandinavians, the franks etc?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

We should use this occasion to drink and be merry.

[Guest Cerebus]

We should use this occasion to drink and be merry.

Welcome to the China Club.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

SLAP.

[Guest MikeSC]

We should use this occasion to drink and be merry.

You need a reason to drink?

 

You commie.

-=Mike

[MrRant 0]

SLAP.

But I'M Rick James.

 

 

Bitch.

[Vanhalen 0]

I think the real reason why MikeSC is pissed about this, is becuase EU is now the economic powerhouse, now the EU has the worlds biggest trading economy, not the US, and with China expanding at the rate it is, the US could find itself pushed to #3 in 5-10 years, thats probably the real reason.

[EricMM 0]

You must be out of your mind.

 

The EU doesn't even have one currency.

[Guest MikeSC]

I think the real reason why MikeSC is pissed about this, is becuase EU is now the economic powerhouse, now the EU has the worlds biggest trading economy, not the US, and with China expanding at the rate it is, the US could find itself pushed to #3 in 5-10 years, thats probably the real reason.

The EU is a non-democratic body. If the idea of people YOU don't elect passing laws that impact you makes you all warm and gooey inside, well, all of the money and blood we spent defending Europe was indeed wasted.

 

And, honestly, the moment the U.S decides to not protect Europe at all, the economies there will collapse.

-=Mike

[Guest wrestlingbs]

The Cold War's ENDING!?

 

On my God, I've traveled back in time to 1989!

 

I gotta warn people about Hitler!

 

 

-------

 

Seriously, I've had college professors say to me that the US has reached it's peak and is curresntly on the decline (China's next to be #1). I myself don't believe it but if it happens there is little I can do about it.

[tommytomlin 0]

Protect Europe from whom?

[2GOLD 0]

Protect Europe from whom?

 

Canada....they are shifty I tell ya.

 

And I'm pretty sure the Cold War has been over for quite some time. Maybe this should have just been 15 hours till the dissolve of the Warsaw Pact or something.

[Guest Cerebus]

Protect Europe from whom?

This story didn't get alot of attention but it might shine some light on your question.

[Ravenbomb 0]

so is the Cold War over yet?

[tommytomlin 0]

Protect Europe from whom?

This story didn't get alot of attention but it might shine some light on your question.

So Europe needs U.S protection from terrorism, even though the act you're referring to came about because a European country helped the U.S 'protect Europe' from terrorism?

 

I mean, this argument makes sense in 1989. I can understand the argument that the Soviets were an expansionist power. But how exactly is the U.S protecting Europe, a decade and a bit after the Cold War?

[Guest MikeSC]

Protect Europe from whom?

This story didn't get alot of attention but it might shine some light on your question.

So Europe needs U.S protection from terrorism, even though the act you're referring to came about because a European country helped the U.S 'protect Europe' from terrorism?

 

I mean, this argument makes sense in 1989. I can understand the argument that the Soviets were an expansionist power. But how exactly is the U.S protecting Europe, a decade and a bit after the Cold War?

The moment we pull out, Europe has to defend itself. Do you think, say, Muslim countries wouldn't attack a basically completely un-defended Europe?

 

You'd lose the economic benefits of a U.S military base --- which would be a huge blow. You'd also have to provide for your own defense, which means you'd have to eliminate a huge chunk of your safety net if you wish to ever be able to protect yourself.

 

Europe is able to have the cushy lifestyle you lead because WE footed the bill for your defense for decades. WE went without to defend you.

-=Mike

...And, thus, Europe became a bunch of 17 year olds who hate that they can't live on their own

[BX 0]

Wait. When/if we withdraw our forces from Europe, the "eternal battlefield" as it were, we're leaving them sitting ducks for an invasion from Morocco? Am I wrong when I assume these countries have their own forces?

 

But when these same European forces withdraw their troops from Iraq, it's argued that their lack of presence hurts U.S. troops in the country. I thought we were the asskickingest country on the Earth, able to fight in 50 countries at once, while at the same time making sweet love to Israel with our 25 foot long cock?

[Guest Vitamin X]

You must be out of your mind.

 

The EU doesn't even have one currency.

Have you heard of the Euro?

[Guest Cerebus]

You must be out of your mind.

 

The EU doesn't even have one currency.

Have you heard of the Euro?

Not everyone has adopted the Euro as their exclusive currency (UK for example).

[Guest MikeSC]

Wait. When/if we withdraw our forces from Europe, the "eternal battlefield" as it were, we're leaving them sitting ducks for an invasion from Morocco? Am I wrong when I assume these countries have their own forces?

 

But when these same European forces withdraw their troops from Iraq, it's argued that their lack of presence hurts U.S. troops in the country. I thought we were the asskickingest country on the Earth, able to fight in 50 countries at once, while at the same time making sweet love to Israel with our 25 foot long cock?

We could win ANY war ALONE.

 

We could ANNIHILATE any enemy with just Israel on our side.

 

We could run roughshod over anybody with Israel and the U.K on our side.

 

We do not NEED Europe to help us in Iraq. It'd be nice, but it is HARDLY necessary.

 

These countries militaries, to be generous, are horrendous. They are technologically backwards and they have spent almost NO money to actually maintain a legitimate military.

 

If they wanted to, the U.K could conquer Europe. It wouldn't even be that difficult.

 

And the U.K wouldn't last long against the U.S

-=Mike

[tommytomlin 0]

Yes, the U.S is the best, we get that. But who exactly is the U.S defending Europe from in the year 2004? Is it Morocco?

[Guest wrestlingbs]

Wait. When/if we withdraw our forces from Europe, the "eternal battlefield" as it were, we're leaving them sitting ducks for an invasion from Morocco? Am I wrong when I assume these countries have their own forces?

 

But when these same European forces withdraw their troops from Iraq, it's argued that their lack of presence hurts U.S. troops in the country.  I thought we were the asskickingest country on the Earth, able to fight in 50 countries at once, while at the same time making sweet love to Israel with our 25 foot long cock?

We could win ANY war ALONE.

 

We could ANNIHILATE any enemy with just Israel on our side.

 

We could run roughshod over anybody with Israel and the U.K on our side.

 

We do not NEED Europe to help us in Iraq. It'd be nice, but it is HARDLY necessary.

 

These countries militaries, to be generous, are horrendous. They are technologically backwards and they have spent almost NO money to actually maintain a legitimate military.

 

If they wanted to, the U.K could conquer Europe. It wouldn't even be that difficult.

 

And the U.K wouldn't last long against the U.S

-=Mike

Even if the US could win ANY war, I'm pretty sure the other guy would take a lot of us with him.

[Guest MikeSC]

Yes, the U.S is the best, we get that. But who exactly is the U.S defending Europe from in the year 2004? Is it Morocco?

Tommy, the moment a military ceases to be an effective presence, you'll have lots of groups trying to conquer you. No doubt Muslim extremists will want their former possessions in Spain back --- and wouldn't mind more land to boot. Perhaps a country in Europe will have a psychotic madman in power (I know, a psychotic madman in power IN EUROPE? Never happens). Lots of problems occur when the possibility for military reprisal is somewhere in the neighborhood of nil.

Even if the US could win ANY war, I'm pretty sure the other guy would take a lot of us with him.

No doubt they would.

-=Mike