WWE Title vs. The World Heavywieght Title

[reign 0]

I for one will be the first to admit that I hated the return of the big gold belt,the way in which it was brought back and most of all who carried the damn thing for 98% of the time..but now seeing that belt on Benoit and even HBK before him I think that World Title is the real deal...HHH beat Ric Flair for the title(okay so it was his first defense) which now to me seems like a pretty resonable way to bring back the same belt that Flair had held for so long...and yeah Raw suffered through the reign of HHH as he beat RVD,Kane,Booker,Steiner and all the rest but it helped to create a new history for that title and made it so much more important when Benoit was able to win the gold...take away Goldbergs wasted reign of course but I think that whether they intended it or not the WWE has done a great job establishing the World Title...hell now it even sounds better...World Wrestling Entertainment Champion or THE WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION...and the fact that Raw has the belt that has been seen throughout the NWA,WCW and the WWF of old and SD! has that second-rate looking belt is just all the more reason to claim its superiority...your thoughts?

[cbacon 0]

Interesting topic. I've always advocated the validity of the RAW title even though most deem it 'fake' . The lineage is still unclear, but to the untrained eye one my see it as the original WCW/NWA title. The WWE seem to be portraying it as their major title , and it looks more visually appealing as a world title. I;ll expand later when im a bit more sober and can formulate a more coherent mindset as im a tad drunk at the moment, because this is something i've thought about greatly in recent months....

[reign 0]

All good points....hey I thought I was the only one having to drink my way through this website on a Saturday night.....

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Wow... I've been saying it's a real title forever, but now that Benoit has it people start to "see the light."

[Tawren 0]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

 

That's how I see it, and no way will I be persuaded because it doesn't make sense. Why would Brock and Steph (champ and GM at time of Raw title being created) give up half their belt for no reason?

[ISportsFan 0]

This is really simple, to me at least. The validity of a championship in a sport where winners are predetermined has less to do with lineage and more to do with its portrayal at any one time.

 

Thus, when I think of the history of the championships, such as the WCW title and the WWF/WWE title, it's all on Smackdown. Everything the companies stood for, in champions and the like, is all in the title Eddie Guerrero holds right now.

 

But, right now, the history means nothing. In Vince McMahon's vision, history has always meant nothing. So, the lineage and the history of the title belongs to Guerrero's belt, but the belt that means more right now is the RAW belt that Benoit holds.

 

Why is that? HHH, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, and others are just flat out producing great matches and generating an interest in the belt. Eddie Guerrero has challengers like Bradshaw who can't get over. That belt also had Bob Holly get a major PPV title shot. Right now, the major players and the major storylines, along with the interest, all lies in the belt on Benoit's shoulder.

 

Jason

[Slickster 0]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

 

That's how I see it, and no way will I be persuaded because it doesn't make sense. Why would Brock and Steph (champ and GM at time of Raw title being created) give up half their belt for no reason?

 

They NEVER 'gave up' half of the title; it was taken from them.

 

Remember, they only controlled 1/2 of the title (it was shared by and competed for by both brands).

 

Bischoff broke off his half of this arrangement and took back half of the title; he chose the WCW half of the title (as he was kinda partial to it).

 

What could Steph do about it? Nothing. The 'Undisputed Title' was a joint venture of the two brands with the creation of the 'GM' position for each brand. One brand leaves, the alliance collapses into two parts.

[tbondrage99 0]

The World title is the real deal. Its as simple as that.

 

At first like everyone else I thought yeah, this is a load of crap. The real world title is on Smackdown and its as simple as that. Didnt take long for me to change my mind though and its for only 3 reasons.

 

#1 The Smackdown title didnt have as many of the best guys contending for it. It was basically just Kurt Angle, The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar at the time, we Brock just sucks. Raw had a bunch more people trying to get it. RVD, Kane, HBK, Jericho, Steiner, and more. Heck within only months they had enough guys for a six man elmination chamber match.

 

#2 The fact that Raws title didnt change hands nearly as much. Within a year of the title being brought back the title only changed hands two times from Triple H to HBK, and back to Triple H. Smackdowns title went from Brock Lesnar, to The Big Show, To Kurt Angle, To Brock Lesnar, and back to Kurt Angle again in the same time span. Still not bad but 2 title changes in a makes a title sound like its worth more then 4.

 

#3 It simply looks better. In my opinion I think that Smackdowns title should of changed back to the way the WWE title looked before both belts were unified. Cause yeah...wasnt that the point of that title? It was what you got when you unified the titles? If they arnt the same titles anymore then it should go back to the way it looked before Wrestle Mania XIX.

[tbondrage99 0]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

That wasnt exctally teh case but even so, if it was then "Raws made up title" has more credibility, due to having better people trying to get it and better matches in its title defences. To be honest the only title match that I even really liked from The Smackdown title since they split again was when Angle defended it against Benoit at the 2003 Royal Rumble.

[reign 0]

I agree....but it's also a good thing don't you think that HHH never lost that title to RVD or Kane...maybe Booker T would have been okay...any loss of that title to any one but HBK or Benoit could have crippled(no pun) that title in the long run...I'm tired of championships being whored out to everybody and now that HHH had such a long run with that belt it gained respect...I know that it's technically a newer title in the eyes of many but that belt has been around for many years...and I hate the WWE title...it looks nothing like the glory day titles of the WWF..in fact it looks more like the Stone Cold belt than a credible looking title....and again..Champion of Entertainment is just stupid...to me the longer that the WWE Title continues on this path of lameness it will loose any luster it has left

[Lil' Bitch 0]

#3 It simply looks better. In my opinion I think that Smackdowns title should of changed back to the way the WWE title looked before both belts were unified. Cause yeah...wasnt that the point of that title? It was what you got when you unified the titles? If they arnt the same titles anymore then it should go back to the way it looked before Wrestle Mania XIX.

 

I too would vouch for the return of the bigger Eagle belt.

[Tawren 0]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

That wasnt exctally teh case but even so, if it was then "Raws made up title" has more credibility, due to having better people trying to get it and better matches in its title defences. To be honest the only title match that I even really liked from The Smackdown title since they split again was when Angle defended it against Benoit at the 2003 Royal Rumble.

I'm not debating quality of matches (although I think you're underrating lots of stuff), I'm talking about lineage. What do you mean by "that's wasm't exactly the case".

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

That wasnt exctally teh case but even so, if it was then "Raws made up title" has more credibility, due to having better people trying to get it and better matches in its title defences. To be honest the only title match that I even really liked from The Smackdown title since they split again was when Angle defended it against Benoit at the 2003 Royal Rumble.

I'm not debating quality of matches (although I think you're underrating lots of stuff), I'm talking about lineage. What do you mean by "that's wasm't exactly the case".

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

I must be one of the few people who like the design of the WWE Championship.

 

Personally, I stick to the WWE Championship no matter what.

 

But I'm starting to respect the World Title more.

 

Now here's the question: Let's say for some strange reason, McMahon gets desperate and ends the brand extension...which title will HE chose to use?

[reign 0]

Well it's not the real title anymore(as in Eddie's is the real title) b/c as someone posted earlier Bischoff un-unified the undisputed title when he as GM of Raw decided that he need a Champion on his brand since Brock was the sole property of SD!...and since WCW was dead and buried he called it the World Heavyweight Title...gave it to the last man to actually hold THAT belt

[reign 0]

Real title -> Eddie's belt. WWF formed with WCW to make that belt, then Raw made up a title.

That wasnt exctally teh case but even so, if it was then "Raws made up title" has more credibility, due to having better people trying to get it and better matches in its title defences. To be honest the only title match that I even really liked from The Smackdown title since they split again was when Angle defended it against Benoit at the 2003 Royal Rumble.

I'm not debating quality of matches (although I think you're underrating lots of stuff), I'm talking about lineage. What do you mean by "that's wasm't exactly the case".

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

That's even better...I didn't even think about that...where did you find that info at...I mean I understand the IC,Euro,Hardcore and U.S. titles but the T.V and Western States?...how did that belt absorb those titles?

[Tawren 0]

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

All the stuff post-WCW lineage (except WCW TV-where did that come from) I agree with, as that was all merged with the IC then merged with HHH's belt. But, Jericho unified the WWF and WCW belts to create the Undisputed title, then HHH won it, then Hogan won it, then Undertaker won it, then Rock won it, then Brock won it, then Big Show won it, so forth. Why would HHH get half the belt for no reason other than he wanted it (in storyline terms)?

[Slickster 0]

Well it's not the real title anymore b/c as someone posted earlier Bischoff un-unified the undisputed title when he as GM of Raw decided that he need a Champion on his brand since Brock was the sole property of SD!...and since WCW was dead and buried he called it the World Heavyweight Title...gave it to the last man to actually hold THAT belt

Not quite what I said; I said he took 1 of the 2 titles that existed before unification:

 

The [WWE] Title

The World Heavyweight Title [remember, that was what it was called prior to Venge01. The belt continued to exist from 11/19/01 to 12/9/01 and was recognized as equal to the WWE Title.]

 

He chose the World Heavyweight Title and broke it away from the Undisputed Title, leaving Steph and SmackDown! with the original WWE Title.

[Slickster 0]

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

All the stuff post-WCW lineage (except WCW TV-where did that come from) I agree with, as that was all merged with the IC then merged with HHH's belt. But, Jericho unified the WWF and WCW belts to create the Undisputed title, then HHH won it, then Hogan won it, then Undertaker won it, then Rock won it, then Brock won it, then Big Show won it, so forth. Why would HHH get half the belt for no reason other than he wanted it (in storyline terms)?

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

 

EDIT: The WCW US Title was de-unified from the World Hvywt. Title by Stephanie, seeing as how she said the belt was being 'brought back' and the promo materials for Vengeance showed former NWA/WCW US champs (and a pic of the old belt itself).

 

The Western States Title was abandoned.

 

Ditto for the WCW TV Title.

 

IC was de-unified, so it still has the Euro/HC lineage in it.

 

The World Heavyweight Title only has its OWN lineage (back to 1/11?/91) within itself.

[reign 0]

Well it's not the real title anymore b/c as someone posted earlier Bischoff un-unified the undisputed title when he as GM of Raw decided that he need a Champion on his brand since Brock was the sole property of SD!...and since WCW was dead and buried he called it the World Heavyweight Title...gave it to the last man to actually hold THAT belt

Not quite what I said; I said he took 1 of the 2 titles that existed before unification:

 

The [WWE] Title

The World Heavyweight Title [remember, that was what it was called prior to Venge01. The belt continued to exist from 11/19/01 to 12/9/01 and was recognized as equal to the WWE Title.]

 

He chose the World Heavyweight Title and broke it away from the Undisputed Title, leaving Steph and SmackDown! with the original WWE Title.

Your wrestling knowledge is far greater than mine...I stand corrected....

[tbondrage99 0]

Now here's the question: Let's say for some strange reason, McMahon gets desperate and ends the brand extension...which title will HE chose to use?

He would probally just make yet another new version of the two belts slapped together.

[Tawren 0]

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

No, not end of story. Yes, he got a belt for being no.1 contender and not getting a title shot, but I'm arguing that he didn't get the actual WCW title, he got a brand new title. Brock held the Unified title, switched brands, and now Eddie has that Unified title.

[reign 0]

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

All the stuff post-WCW lineage (except WCW TV-where did that come from) I agree with, as that was all merged with the IC then merged with HHH's belt. But, Jericho unified the WWF and WCW belts to create the Undisputed title, then HHH won it, then Hogan won it, then Undertaker won it, then Rock won it, then Brock won it, then Big Show won it, so forth. Why would HHH get half the belt for no reason other than he wanted it (in storyline terms)?

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

 

EDIT: The WCW US Title was de-unified from the World Hvywt. Title by Stephanie, seeing as how she said the belt was being 'brought back' and the promo materials for Vengeance showed former NWA/WCW US champs (and a pic of the old belt itself).

 

The Western States Title was abandoned.

 

Ditto for the WCW TV Title.

 

IC was de-unified, so it still has the Euro/HC lineage in it.

 

The World Heavyweight Title only has its OWN lineage (back to 1/11?/91) within itself.

But wait...wouldn't the U.S title have been de-unified from the I.C title since Edge beat Christian (I think) to unify those two titles during Invasion?

[reign 0]

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

No, not end of story. Yes, he got a belt for being no.1 contender and not getting a title shot, but I'm arguing that he didn't get the actual WCW title, he got a brand new title. Brock held the Unified title, switched brands, and now Eddie has that Unified title.

As we said before(HAH!)...the title existed as the World Title after Team WCW(with half of it being WWF but that's neither here nor there) lost Survivor Series...so when it was unified it was the WWF title vs. the World Title...so he got back the World Title

[Tawren 0]

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

No, not end of story. Yes, he got a belt for being no.1 contender and not getting a title shot, but I'm arguing that he didn't get the actual WCW title, he got a brand new title. Brock held the Unified title, switched brands, and now Eddie has that Unified title.

As we said before(HAH!)...the title existed as the World Title after Team WCW(with half of it being WWF but that's neither here nor there) lost Survivor Series...so when it was unified it was the WWF title vs. the World Title...so he got back the World Title

Why would he get back the world title? Brock and Steph wouldn't want to give it up, he had no claim to half the title, it was never explained on TV.

[Slickster 0]

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

All the stuff post-WCW lineage (except WCW TV-where did that come from) I agree with, as that was all merged with the IC then merged with HHH's belt. But, Jericho unified the WWF and WCW belts to create the Undisputed title, then HHH won it, then Hogan won it, then Undertaker won it, then Rock won it, then Brock won it, then Big Show won it, so forth. Why would HHH get half the belt for no reason other than he wanted it (in storyline terms)?

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

 

EDIT: The WCW US Title was de-unified from the World Hvywt. Title by Stephanie, seeing as how she said the belt was being 'brought back' and the promo materials for Vengeance showed former NWA/WCW US champs (and a pic of the old belt itself).

 

The Western States Title was abandoned.

 

Ditto for the WCW TV Title.

 

IC was de-unified, so it still has the Euro/HC lineage in it.

 

The World Heavyweight Title only has its OWN lineage (back to 1/11?/91) within itself.

But wait...wouldn't the U.S title have been de-unified from the I.C title since Edge beat Christian (I think) to unify those two titles during Invasion?

TIMELINE:

 

Two separate titles from c. 1985-11/18/01.

 

US champ Edge def. IC champ Test to unify the titles at SSeries 01.

 

Steph de-unified the US and IC titles in June 2003.

[Mearl267 0]

Now a days, I don't see title holders as the 'champ'. I see them as the man the company puts there full faith behind in carrying them to the top. I think they are doing an AWESOME job with Beniot. The man is so over, and if you have seen the last three Raws, you will know what I'm talking about. Same thing with Guerrero. When he comes out, the building blows up. Faces are supposed to wear the belts, becaus ethe casual fan wants the good guy to win.

 

HHH however didn't get the reaction that Ben/Guerrero are getting right now. He was, and is, still over, but the crowd is starting to fully back the faces. I honestly see Beniot holding the belt atleast untill Sumerslam, and the would be a HUGE accomplishment these days in the WWE. Guerrero will eventually drop it to *gasp* John Cena.

[Blade2kxx 0]

Because the WWE says that the WCW lineage, the IC lineage, the Harcore lineage, the European lineage, the WCW US title lineage, the WCW TV Title, and the Western States title lineage are all in it.

All the stuff post-WCW lineage (except WCW TV-where did that come from) I agree with, as that was all merged with the IC then merged with HHH's belt. But, Jericho unified the WWF and WCW belts to create the Undisputed title, then HHH won it, then Hogan won it, then Undertaker won it, then Rock won it, then Brock won it, then Big Show won it, so forth. Why would HHH get half the belt for no reason other than he wanted it (in storyline terms)?

Basically... HHH was the last person to wear the Big Gold Belt...

 

When he won the Undisputed Title from Y2J, the next night the current WWE Title was given to him in exchange for the other two belts.

[Fökai 0]

Using the WWE's reasoning:

 

No real way to explain it, but the RAW title took the lineage to the WCW/World Title, because it holds the same nameplate as the WCW/World title prior to Vengeance '01 (which was held by the Rock). Subsequently, the WWE title would hold the lineage to the WWF title (held in December '01 by Steve Austin).

 

RAW and Smackdown held both lineages together by keeping the Undisputed Title around after the draft. When Brock refused to defend the title against a RAW worker after Summerslam '02, he forfeited the right to be the "Undisputed" Champion. Therefore, Bischoff had the right to claim a part of the lineage, in order to place the World title on HHH's shoulder.

 

There's no real reasoning behind WHY Bischoff took the World lineage to the title, and not the WWE title lineage.

[Guest reshad974]

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

No, not end of story. Yes, he got a belt for being no.1 contender and not getting a title shot, but I'm arguing that he didn't get the actual WCW title, he got a brand new title. Brock held the Unified title, switched brands, and now Eddie has that Unified title.

Yeah dude, you're damn right. Why people can't understand that is beyond me. It was never said that TripleH took one half of the Unified title, yet some assume he did. The confusion come from the fact that the World Heavyweight title is the old WCW big gold belt but get a hint brothers !