Terrorists Hit a New Low

[Guest hunger4unger]

You're not getting it Mike. It's a never ending circle of violence: Hamas kill Israeli's-IDF kill Palestinians-Hamas kill Israeli's-IDF kill Palestinians - get it? It doesn't matter who initiated the violence now. One thing ot remember though - all Palestinians want out of this is their own state. They don't want to take over Israel or anything.

 

I've read through Slapnut's post, I haven't ignored it as you put I simply haven't been online. You know, everything there about the land all goes out the window when you think that when Sharon but up that wall earlier this year he grabbed even more land by building it on Palestinian territory! Also, this past week Sharon had proposed to move the Israeli settlements off Palestinian land - surely that shows you that Israeli's ARE settling in Palestine and chunks of the state are being taking over and morphed into Israeli territory?

 

I don't for one minute think that genocide or mass graves are less condoneable than suicide attacks - both are atrocities and the people carrying out such acts should be treated with contempt and face justice. I've never, ever condoned suicide bombings - i've stated over and over it's not the way to go and it will achieve nothing. On the subject of mass graves and genocide, you do know that when Sharon is out of government he's facing trial for war crimes dating back to 1982?

[Guest MikeSC]

You're not getting it Mike. It's a never ending circle of violence: Hamas kill Israeli's-IDF kill Palestinians-Hamas kill Israeli's-IDF kill Palestinians - get it? It doesn't matter who initiated the violence now. One thing ot remember though - all Palestinians want out of this is their own state. They don't want to take over Israel or anything.

Again, just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true. Israel has offered Palestinians almost EVERYTHING they claim they want and Arafat simply left the negotiations.

 

And, yes, it DOES matter who initiates the violence. When Israel does NOTHING --- they STILL get bombed. If Palestine didn't bomb Israel, I can assure you nothing would happen to them.

I've read through Slapnut's post, I haven't ignored it as you put I simply haven't been online. You know, everything there about the land all goes out the window when you think that when Sharon but up that wall earlier this year he grabbed even more land by building it on Palestinian territory!

Since there IS no Palestinian territory, your argument is what is called a red herring.

 

And Israel's "wall" is no different than what several other countries have done in that area to protect themselves against violence from others.

Also, this past week Sharon had proposed to move the Israeli settlements off Palestinian land - surely that shows you that Israeli's ARE settling in Palestine and chunks of the state are being taking over and morphed into Israeli territory?

No, it shows that, once again, Israel is trying to make peace. And, as usual, it will get them nowhere.

I don't for one minute think that genocide or mass graves are less condoneable than suicide attacks - both are atrocities and the people carrying out such acts should be treated with contempt and face justice. I've never, ever condoned suicide bombings - i've stated over and over it's not the way to go and it will achieve nothing. On the subject of mass graves and genocide, you do know that when Sharon is out of government he's facing trial for war crimes dating back to 1982?

At least he'll allegedly face charges.

 

I don't see PLO members getting charged with ANYTHING for what they do.

 

Fortunately, Israel has had a good track record of killing them off.

-=Mike

[Styles 0]

Why did Isreal have to be so small?  And why was that the place the decided to put all the Jews after WWII?  Very short sighted on the UN's part.

You seem to have a very good, mature, fair grasp of the situation and I compliment you on a well thought out post. This point that you bring up, though is not rhetorical, and is important to understand. Perhaps this information will help:

MYTH

 

“The Zionists could have chosen another country besides Palestine.”

 

FACT

In the late 19th century, the rise of religious and racist anti-Semitism led to a resurgence of pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe, shattering promises of equality and tolerance. This stimulated Jewish immigration to Palestine from Europe.

 

Simultaneously, a wave of Jews immigrated to Palestine from Yemen, Morocco, Iraq and Turkey. These Jews were unaware of Theodor Herzl's political Zionism or of European pogroms. They were motivated by the centuries-old dream of the “Return to Zion” and a fear of intolerance. Upon hearing that the gates of Palestine were open, they braved the hardships of travel and went to the Land of Israel.

 

The Zionist ideal of a return to Israel has profound religious roots. Many Jewish prayers speak of Jerusalem, Zion and the Land of Israel. The injunction not to forget Jerusalem, the site of the Temple, is a major tenet of Judaism. The Hebrew language, the Torah, laws in the Talmud, the Jewish calendar and Jewish holidays and festivals all originated in Israel and revolve around its seasons and conditions. Jews pray toward Jerusalem and recite the words “next year in Jerusalem” every Passover. Jewish religion, culture and history make clear that it is only in the land of Israel that the Jewish commonwealth can be built.

 

In 1897, Jewish leaders formally organized the Zionist political movement, calling for the restoration of the Jewish national home in Palestine, where Jews could find sanctuary and self-determination, and work for the renascence of their civilization and culture

 

MYTH

 

“The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.”

 

FACT

Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.

 

Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians' ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad's followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions that killed off most of the local people (e.g., the Crusades), migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.

 

By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews.

 

“...[the Palestinian Arabs'] basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or - for some - Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after thirty years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine..”10a

 

MYTH

 

“The United Nations unjustly partitioned Palestine.”

 

FACT

 

As World War II ended, the magnitude of the Holocaust became known. This accelerated demands for a resolution to the question of Palestine so the survivors of Hitler's "Final Solution" might find sanctuary in a homeland of their own.

 

The British tried to work out an agreement acceptable to both Arabs and Jews, but their insistence on the former's approval guaranteed failure because the Arabs would not make any concessions. They subsequently turned the issue over to the UN in February 1947.

 

The UN established a Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) to devise a solution. Delegates from 11 nations* went to the area and found what had long been apparent: The conflicting national aspirations of Jews and Arabs could not be reconciled.

 

The contrasting attitudes of the two groups "could not fail to give the impression that the Jews were imbued with the sense of right and were prepared to plead their case before any unbiased tribunal, while the Arabs felt unsure of the justice of their cause, or were afraid to bow to the judgment of the nations."1

 

Although most of the Commission's members acknowledged the need to find a compromise solution, it was difficult for them to envision one given the parties' intractability. At a meeting with a group of Arabs in Beirut, the Czechoslovakian member of the Commission told his audience: "I have listened to your demands and it seems to me that in your view the compromise is: We want our demands met completely, the rest can be divided among those left."2

 

When they returned, the delegates of seven nations — Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, The Netherlands, Peru, Sweden and Uruguay — recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with Jerusalem an internationalized enclave. Three nations — India, Iran and Yugoslavia — recommended a unitary state with Arab and Jewish provinces. Australia abstained.

 

The Jews of Palestine were not satisfied with the small territory allotted to them by the Commission, nor were they happy that Jerusalem was severed from the Jewish State; nevertheless, they welcomed the compromise. The Arabs rejected the UNSCOP's recommendations.

 

The ad hoc committee of the UN General Assembly rejected the Arab demand for a unitary Arab state. The majority recommendation for partition was subsequently adopted 33-13 with 10 abstentions on November 29, 1947.3

 

 

 

“It is hard to see how the Arab world, still less the Arabs of Palestine, will suffer from what is mere recognition of accomplished fact — the presence in Palestine of a compact, well organized, and virtually autonomous Jewish community.”

 

— London Times editorial4

[Guest Crazy Dan]

I thank you for the compliment, and for the additional information to better understand this mess.

[Guest Quik]

And this is why I hate religion.

 

"Kill the enemy, and you'll be whisked to a fairy-fuckin'-fantasy land where 75 virgins will blow you when you snap your fingers."

 

I'm pretty sure if these kids weren't raised from birth thinking they'd be rewarded by blowing shit up we wouldn't hear stories like this. Maybe we should introduce the frieghtening concept of atheism to Palestine, which as just as much proof as any other existing religion. God forbid something that makes sense becomes commonpalce among Palestine.

 

Y'know, I hate to sound like an ignorant person or a racist, but shit like this just makes me view the entire middle east as a rotting cesspool of backwards customs, rituals, and ignorance where throwing a rock at your neighbor's head is just as effective and accepted as having a conversation with him to resolve a conflict..

[Jobber of the Week 0]

And this is why I hate religion.

It's not just religion, it's politics, too. There's peaceful practicing Muslims both here and there but we don't have as many radical violent Muslims. Why? Because our government does ramble on about how it's a favor from God to die for whatever cause it is we're fighting today.

 

Despite valiant efforts by Slapnuts to make it sound like Israel just wants to end the bloodshed, I remember some time ago Israel/Palestine talks fell apart over issues as petty as who's religious statues should be on public display in Jerusalem. Priorities tells me that I wouldn't mind seeing some other guy's God in the town square as long as it STOPS THE MURDERING. But no. Neither side would budge on that issue.

 

And that is why I hate theocracies.

 

Y'know, I hate to sound like an ignorant person or a racist, but shit like this just makes me view the entire middle east as a rotting cesspool of backwards customs, rituals, and ignorance where throwing a rock at your neighbor's head is just as effective and accepted as having a conversation with him to resolve a conflict..

 

That's probably not too far from the truth. The good thing is that not everyone raised there likes to live like that.