Yeah, it'll probably win the GameFAQs poll...

[AndrewTS 0]

I don't like the respawning necessarily, but it's not as boring, at least. I like a game that keeps you on your toes and makes you fight for your digital life.

 

Games with excessive wandering and no danger = zzzzz. That's why Shenmue is noticably missing from my DC game list. It has to be the most boring game I've ever played, even surpassing FFTA.

 

So even though I don't quite get chaorage's OoT hatred, he does have a valid point about that aspect.

[Anya 0]

The thing about Shenmue is that not only is it slow paced, the story isn't interesting either. It'd be one thing if you were wandering around solving this really fascinating mystery or something. Aimlessly walking around trying to find out if anyone saw a black car just doesn't make for thrilling gaming.

[Slayer 0]

The thing about Shenmue is that not only is it slow paced, the story isn't interesting either. It'd be one thing if you were wandering around solving this really fascinating mystery or something. Aimlessly walking around trying to find out if anyone saw a black car just doesn't make for thrilling gaming.

But it's just like real life!

 

Lord knows how many times I've had to run around looking for black cars...

[Renegade 0]

Say what you want, but Shenmue 2 picks things up at a much faster pace and does it so much better than the first. The escape scene with Ren is one of the highlights of Shenmue 2.

[AndrewTS 0]

The thing about Shenmue is that not only is it slow paced, the story isn't interesting either. It'd be one thing if you were wandering around solving this really fascinating mystery or something. Aimlessly walking around trying to find out if anyone saw a black car just doesn't make for thrilling gaming.

But it's just like real life!

 

Lord knows how many times I've had to run around looking for black cars...

And sailors.

 

I'd say the game could have hugely benefited from plenty of roving gangs of street thugs. Then I remember that it plays like Virtua Fighter, and I have my doubts.

 

Sega should have just shot for a 3D River City Ransom and they'd have had a lot more engaging a game on his names.

 

Worst of all, that was about the only freakin' game that Sega ever promoted for the Dreamcast.

 

Say what you want, but Shenmue 2 picks things up at a much faster pace and does it so much better than the first. The escape scene with Ren is one of the highlights of Shenmue 2.

 

Yeah, but last time I played I had to carefully carry books outside and set them on benches, then I uncovered some clues and...the arcade?!?! ALRIGHT!! *makes no further progress on the main game*

[Guest Askewniverse]

The thing about Shenmue is that not only is it slow paced, the story isn't interesting either. It'd be one thing if you were wandering around solving this really fascinating mystery or something. Aimlessly walking around trying to find out if anyone saw a black car just doesn't make for thrilling gaming.

What, you didn't like finding out about "the day of the incident?"

 

Anyways, I just checked the GameFAQs tourney results and FF VII beat Zelda: OOT. Now I really want to say that the FAQers are biased...or maybe it's me that's biased towards Zelda.

[Slayer 0]

The thing about Shenmue is that not only is it slow paced, the story isn't interesting either. It'd be one thing if you were wandering around solving this really fascinating mystery or something. Aimlessly walking around trying to find out if anyone saw a black car just doesn't make for thrilling gaming.

But it's just like real life!

 

Lord knows how many times I've had to run around looking for black cars...

And sailors.

Not that there's anything wrong with that

 

Say what you want, but Shenmue 2 picks things up at a much faster pace and does it so much better than the first. The escape scene with Ren is one of the highlights of Shenmue 2.

 

Yeah, but last time I played I had to carefully carry books outside and set them on benches, then I uncovered some clues and...the arcade?!?! ALRIGHT!! *makes no further progress on the main game*

Art imitates life, eh Andrew?

[Lightning Flik 0]

Anyways, looking on the whole FF series, I can honestly say that to be fair, I wouldn't rank more than 1 of them in a Top 10 list of RPGs.

 

I should hope so. I mean, I'd expect that from a FFanatic who has played all of 3 non-Square RPGs in his/her life, but you should know better.

Yes, I should. Considering I've played practically all these RPGs out there.

 

...I feel so old saying that.

[AndrewTS 0]

Yeah, but last time I played I had to carefully carry books outside and set them on benches, then I uncovered some clues and...the arcade?!?! ALRIGHT!! *makes no further progress on the main game*

Art imitates life, eh Andrew?

Nope. The one arcade around here kinda sucks.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Anyways, looking on the whole FF series, I can honestly say that to be fair, I wouldn't rank more than 1 of them in a Top 10 list of RPGs.

 

I should hope so. I mean, I'd expect that from a FFanatic who has played all of 3 non-Square RPGs in his/her life, but you should know better.

Yes, I should. Considering I've played practically all these RPGs out there.

 

...I feel so old saying that.

And presumably that one is FFVI, I hope.

[AndrewTS 0]

"And presumably that one is FFVI, I hope."

 

I think probably IV would be it. Flik?

[chaosrage 0]

Here's a much better breakdown of FF7. From years ago on another board.

 

-----

 

Subject: FF7 Review

From: Ashtar X

Date: 04 October 1998 17:35:47 EDT

 

Review: Final Fantasy VII

PlayStation

SquareSoft, 1997.

Rating: NOT RATABLE

 

Storyline

Final Fantasy VII starts off with a somewhat promising lead: it's using the cyberpunk cliche of rebels vs. evil empire. After the first six hours or so, though, it's clear that the plot of the game will be a chase after the super-powerful villain who you couldn't dream of beating yet. It continues with very few twists, and has a very bland presentation. The fun part is that forces unleashed by others solve most of the game's major problems. Evil

corporation's leader? Killed by the villain. Leader's son? Killed by a poor man's Voltron let out by the villain. Giant meteor? Stopped by the "life stream", a force inside the planet itself. Lovely. The characters are trite (a neurotic, his co-dependent, an innocent girl in distress, an Ebonics talking black guy with a gun arm, an engineer with an attitude that's all an act, some sort of talking dog, a guy with a strange clawarm, and a

kleptomaniac), the dialogue is boring. No redeeming factors.

Rating: 1/0.

 

Gameplay

There's a Barenaked Ladies song about the way this game's played. It's called "It's All Been Done." The ATB is no improvement over FFV or FFVI. The special abilities and spells are the same, and this time they're provided by rocks that advance independently of the characters, and can be switched at any time. Slight weapons diversity, but armor seems to do little. There's notably only one armor slot. No helmets or gauntlets. The Limit break

system is almost approaching innovation, but the idea was much more balanced in Final Fantasy VI when at least they only got the special attacks by being low on hit points. As it was, they were "breaks" from the monotony of combat. The 3-person party in Squaresoft is really getting boring, and this game has the worst excuse. "It's too dangerous to travel in groups greater than three." That's down there with saying something like "I locked my keys

in my Yugo. I'd break the window to get them, but it's bad enough that the windshield is broken." The random battles are repetetive, but that's to be expected. The game as a whole is somewhat too easy, even without manipulating the system. There are some pointless, annoying button-pushing contests. The mini-games aren't as painful, but that's all I can say for them.

Rating: 2.

 

Graphics

Ow, my brain! There are six things to the graphics in the game. The first is full-motion video, which is decent-looking at its best. The second is battle graphics, which are fairly bland. The third is town backdrops, which are almost decent at times. The fourth is dungeon backdrops, which are so badly done that you can't see your character at many points in the game. The fifth is the world map, which suffers horribly from pop-up. And the

sixth...the characters. Oh, wretched horror! These are the worst character graphics ever. Huge eyes, bad hair, short, with thin arms and legs that end in GIANT BRICK-LIKE THINGS! Argh.

Rating: Far beyond wretchedness.

 

Other stuff

The other stuff...the sound was so-so, except for One-Winged Angel, which was decent, Aeris's theme (a poor man's Celes theme), and the battle end music, which pissed me off. After the traditional battle fanfare, it kicks into some crappy piece as opposed to the FF battle victory song. Damn them. Anyway, the cover art was pretty cool. Which is a waste. Ah well.

 

Overall

I payed too much for this game, and wasted too much time playing it, and far too much time arguing about it. It's just a piece of crap with Squaresoft on it so it would sell.

Rating:

This game is NOT RATABLE.

 

----

 

Thoughts?

[AndrewTS 0]

Anyanka will hate it because it still will come off as biased.

 

Thing is, FFVII was rated at the time based on other RPGs on that system...

 

It's not hard to get good reviews when your competition includes freakin' Beyond the Beyond.

 

However, compared to what it could have been, its absolutely stunning in it's mediocrity. The lack of innovation is frankly staggering. Square's Playstation titles were basically a remix of their old 16-bit hits with a shiny new coat of paint. Oh yeah, and a few things swiped from other series (You know, Sephiroth really was kinda cool...WHEN HE WAS CALLED ZIO).

 

Looking back on it today, it can be viewed as a significant title that had a profound impact...a negative one in a lot of ways, but still an impact.

 

However, I fail to see how anyone but the most biased of fans can still look back on it and find it every bit as enthralling and engaging as they seem to believe. Newer RPGs, even though many of them are obtuse, preachy, and pretentious, kinda blow this previous effort out of the water in every way, don't they?

 

Although I would argue that the Lunar retreads even kinda put it to shame.

[Lightning Flik 0]

"And presumably that one is FFVI, I hope."

 

I think probably IV would be it. Flik?

No. It's not IV. It is VI. Even I admit that it is a better game. However, when IV is the first RPG you've played through, it grows on the heart.

 

Although, I think most people for RPGs would say that Chrono Trigger is the #1 game overall (gameplay, story, replay, and music).

[AndrewTS 0]

For me, VI fails because of the gameplay and character. Too damn easy, the ability to superpower your characters, the lack of development for a lot of the characters. Sure, they tried to develop most of them, but were spread a little thin. It has a lot of the flaws of VII, only they aren't as glaring.

 

FFIV, or rather II, was actually around the 5th RPG I'd actually played, incidentally. The 1st was either Earthbound or FFVI.

 

I think Illusion of Gaia was 3rd. I think it sucked. 4th was probably Evermore. I think that sucked too.

 

Although, I think most people for RPGs would say that Chrono Trigger is the #1 game overall (gameplay, story, replay, and music).

 

Even I wouldn't say that. The music is really, really good and I like it so much I have the soundtrack. However, the Final Fantasy music kinda puts it to shame to me.

 

CT's story is simplistic, moves quickly, and isn't excessively complicated. It doesn't muck up the gameplay with long, tired, boring exposition scenes (and Toriyama was involved in it?!). When the game shows cinemas, it's usually for the essential and more dramatic moments. It gives it more impact, IMO. Less is more a lot of the time. However, it isn't "epic." It's far from even being serious. Frankly, RPGs that take themselves too seriously tend to grate on my nerves.

 

The replay is of course obvious: New Game + and tons of endings.

 

The gameplay is turn-based, but with regular attacks, magic, non-magic techs, double-techs, triple-techs--there's a lot more variety there. I liked the elimination of random battles, too. Like FFVI, the last leg of the game has optional side quests, and exploring the different time eras is of course neat. Cross, I'd hoped, would expand on the gameplay while retaining the original's magic. Well...no...

 

I'd say that if CT was indeed picked for best game ever, a hell of a lot of people's opinions were colored far too heavily by nostalgia.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Hm... Guess that is true. I'll have to re-go through my so many RPGs I've played and figure out which ones actually make the cut. Because as you say, CT is a little lacking.

[Renegade 0]

Say what you want, but Shenmue 2 picks things up at a much faster pace and does it so much better than the first. The escape scene with Ren is one of the highlights of Shenmue 2.

 

Yeah, but last time I played I had to carefully carry books outside and set them on benches, then I uncovered some clues and...the arcade?!?! ALRIGHT!! *makes no further progress on the main game*

Not my fault your PC is too crappy for emulation.

[Anya 0]

Newer RPGs, even though many of them are obtuse, preachy, and pretentious, kinda blow this previous effort out of the water in every way, don't they?

Not really. Maybe on a technical level, but that's it. RPG gameplay mechanics and storytelling hasn't changed much since FF VII, so the only real improvement is graphics and that doesn't really matter a whole lot.

 

A misconception I always see VII haters make is that the big cutscenes in FF VII are loved because of the graphics. If that was the case the game wouldn't have been so huge past 1998. It's not nostaglia either. What makes those CGI scenes so good is the imagry and the direction, not the technical effects. Like take the intro scene. It's not just a CGI view of Midgar. The way it starts off in the stars and goes down to the city, then zooms out to the logo and over the train is just an awesome sight. The graphics are way outdated and borderline ugly now, but it's still impressive and engaging because of the way it's presented. A lot of game developers don't get that there's more to doing a cinametic game than just having the best, most detailed graphics. I don't think Square's done a better job of it since VII either.

[EricMM 0]

You gotta admit FFVII is pretty well directed in terms of visuals.

 

I'm actually shocked by the amount of hate this game is getting by so many people. Even if you take into account that it looked like total ass compared to suik 1 in many ways (but not all ways) the game was great.

 

There are just so many memorable scenes that the game can't be ignored. I don't care how detailed a game's battle engine is, if it CAN'T tell a story it's no good.

[chaosrage 0]

Anyanka will hate it because it still will come off as biased. 

I love the rating he gave it. Not ratable. It was so bad that he couldn't rate it.

 

Here's some more.

 

Subject: Re: Look everyone, FF7 sucks, there's no two ways about it!

Date: 10/26/98 3:53 PM Central Standard Time

From: Ashtar X

Message-id: <[email protected]>

 

 

>Ash, for example, gave it a "not ratable," which I take as meaning a score

>worse than a zero.

 

In a way. The gameplay was pretty bad, but the FMV kept the graphics from being in a hole. The music was okay. These would be a pretty low rating-around 20%.

 

Then we get to the plot. The plot has an extremely environmentalist message. It's also generally anti-society and features characters who I wouldn't hesitate to call evil. When you get right down to it, they are not going after Sephiroth because there's a threat to the world. It's proven that the world can take it (the power of the world itself is part of that environmentalist bias I despise). They are going after him for revenge, pure and

simple.

 

AVALANCHE kills thousands of people when they blow up the reactors. Shinra also kills a lot of people, but that doesn't take away the fact that AVALANCHE is a bunch of terrorists who deserve to be executed.

 

Cloud, the "hero" of the game, is a weak puppet. He has no sense of morals. He pursues Sephiroth for vengeance. He takes advantage of Tifa. I did not sympathize with him, and I did not feel good when he won.

 

FF7's plot is not bad. It is an atrocity. It so disgusts me that it prevents the game from having a rating.

 

And a comment on outrageously high scores for FF7. On a more objective level, the polygonal characters, the soundtrack that is sub-par with the other FF games, the Materia system, and the general ease of the game should keep it as a below-average game at best, and give it a maximum rating of about 50% or 5 on a ten scale.

 

Subject: Re: Why does Squaresoft always end up botching the end of it's games?

Date: 11/9/98 3:29 PM Central Standard Time

From: Ashtar X

Message-id: <[email protected]>

 

 

If you're playing FF7, this is a spoiler. It won't matter much.

 

 

>I highly doubt that's what happened. Notice the dialogue in the game. Red

>XIII says "Holy is having the opposite effect. Forget Midgar. We've got to

>worry about the planet." OPPOSITE is the key word here. Holy isn't failing to

>work. On the contrary, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do - it's

>destroying evil and leaving only good. In this case, Midgar and humankind are

>the evil, so Holy helps destroy them, instead of saving them like it was

>expected to do. That is why I like FF7's ending so much: it was deeper than

>any ending with complete closure could possibly be, and conveyed a powerful

>message to those players who picked up on it.

 

This is why I hate the game. No, really. Midgar and humankind being the evil is a sort of message that I think is just plain WRONG. If you like, I hate FF7 on a philosophical level as well as hating it on a general level.

 

Without the enviro-terrorist message, the game was bad enough. FF7 is basically saying that the ecology of this planet is more important than the people on it. Also, it pulled the biggest cop-out by having the Promised Land be the Lifestream.

 

Which brings me to yet another one of the problems with this game. FF7's Cetra are portrayed as a people who move from world to world. The problem came along when some people tried to stay in one place. Aside from being a jumble in general about what the Cetra were and who was a Cetra, they kinda reminded me of the aliens from Independence Day--use up a planet, move on.

 

There are all sorts of problems in this game. Much of it stems from characters who are, quite blatantly, hypocrites. For instance, Rufus Shinra gives his big speech about ruling with fear, then what does he do? He has a big PARADE. ON TV, for cryin' out loud! WITH RATINGS! Is fear soon on his agenda? Nope! Or perhaps the great tragedy of the pillage of energy for Materia. Oh, I'm sorry, the "heroes" (read:villains the designers wanted you to

sympathize with) use it with reckless abandon. And they really seem to be involved in a sick oneupsmanship with Shinra. Shinra burns Nibelheim and Corel, AVALANCHE blows up a big chunk of Midgar, Shinra drops a big chunk of Midgar, Cloud lets a meteor get aimed at Midgar. After Rufus was gone, the Shinra "evil" was basically over. If Holy really wanted to do its job, it should've just ripped the Highwind to shreds. (Notice, the WEAPONS do seem

to notice the "heroes" as a threat to the world.)

 

Deep ending? Yeah. Disturbing message? Yeah. Bad game? Oh, yeah.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Actually, I took the ending of Final Fantasy Seven differently. Yes, the people in Midgar who didn't flee did die. But in order for the world to be saved, the people there in fact did have to die.

 

...yes, I just said millions must have to die. It isn't about ecology is more important than the people, but the fact that if you abuse the planet you'll be faced with a terrible choice. Save the planet and let a few die, or let the planet die and everyone on it.

 

Everyone in Midgar needed to use the source of the plant to get on with life. By doing this, they were killing the planet and they just didn't care. They didn't understand the consequences of their actions and even the ones that did, wouldn't change their ways even if they wanted too.

 

The planet did the only solution it had, by using the Black Materia at the source of the problem. Yes, that's a very disturbing message that genocide of all the bad people was the solution. What other choice did it have? It was either to wound the people of the world enough so that they'd understand the reality of the situation, or have the planet die and then everyone die.

 

The few people that were left might actually learn of the folie that was brought about because of them trying to use Mako. Apparently, 500 years later, they did, as Midgar was left in ruins.

 

Why do I say not everyone else died? Other than Midgar and Juno (which was also destroyed top side), everyone else didn't care for Mako usage. The water had become polluted in Juno to the point that everyone below couldn't fish anymore and everyone's lives were miserable. In Midgar, people who lived below didn't even see the sun, were pretty much in shambles for lives and were barely surviving as is because they were looked down upon (who most eventually relocated to Kalm). Yuffie was a perfect example of Wutai, in that they needed materia to make Wutai stronger so that they could drive out Shinra and the Midgar forces and live their peaceful lives.

 

And actually chaos you didn't really understand the Cetra. The Cetra were the original beings that lived on this planet. Then Jenova came to the planet and started using up the planet the way she saw fit. The Cetra fought her, and defeated her at a great cost of Cetrans.

 

There is also a huge difference between solidified Materia and free flowing liquid Mako. Materia is solidified chunks of Mako that can be harnessed properly to utilize the magical powers and this does not hurt the planet. Using the liquidized form of Mako actually hurts the planet and can not be repaired. Liquid Mako is actually like the living being, and to put it blankly, Materia is the "waste" of the lifestream.

 

And for the record, Mako = liquid lifestream and Materia = solidified lifestream. I'm just pointing this out so I never have to say it again.

 

As for the Meteor, there was no way to stop it at all. When it got within the atmosphere and just above Midgar, there is no way to stop it. You can't just send that huge chunk of rock back on an instance notice. You'd have to send it back within a great deal of time.

 

Now just to add so that I just make sure its all there, Aeris completed her wish when on Holy, then why did it take so long for a reaction to go through? Think about Jenova. She was there the whole time, sucking up Mako and stopping the process necessary to stop Meteor in its tracks. This means that unless they (Jenova and Sephiroth) are defeated, there's no way for it to start the process needed. So you still have this problem.

 

As for the WEAPONS, they aren't alive. They've got one objective and one only. Kill all who are involved with the destruction of the planet. Now then, if you might remember correctly, the Omega Weapon attacked Midgar because the people of Midgar were causing the destruction of the planet. The same can be said for the Emerald weapon and Juno. Ruby probably would've attacked the Golden Saucer if it was left alone long enough. The Ultima Weapon would've probably gone after um.. Barrett's Town or Cloud's Town (ouch, that hurts my arguement forgetting their names) since there is a reactor in both, so you had to stop it otherwise it'd sack both towns as well. These WEAPONS are programmed for one thought and one thought only.

 

...I know this is quite just out there, but it is 1 o'clock here and I haven't slept in a week now. So please try to understand that this will be broken up to hell. I hope I've gotten my main points across decently.

[chaosrage 0]

Actually, I took the ending of Final Fantasy Seven differently. Yes, the people in Midgar who didn't flee did die. But in order for the world to be saved, the people there in fact did have to die.

 

...yes, I just said millions must have to die. It isn't about ecology is more important than the people, but the fact that if you abuse the planet you'll be faced with a terrible choice. Save the planet and let a few die, or let the planet die and everyone on it.

 

Everyone in Midgar needed to use the source of the plant to get on with life. By doing this, they were killing the planet and they just didn't care. They didn't understand the consequences of their actions and even the ones that did, wouldn't change their ways even if they wanted too.

 

The planet did the only solution it had, by using the Black Materia at the source of the problem. Yes, that's a very disturbing message that genocide of all the bad people was the solution. What other choice did it have? It was either to wound the people of the world enough so that they'd understand the reality of the situation, or have the planet die and then everyone die.  Then you have the ending 500 years later with no people.  Just animals looking over the remains of Midgar.

 

The few people that were left might actually learn of the folie that was brought about because of them trying to use Mako. Apparently, 500 years later, they did, as Midgar was left in ruins.

 

Why do I say not everyone else died? Other than Midgar and Juno (which was also destroyed top side), everyone else didn't care for Mako usage. The water had become polluted in Juno to the point that everyone below couldn't fish anymore and everyone's lives were miserable. In Midgar, people who lived below didn't even see the sun, were pretty much in shambles for lives and were barely surviving as is because they were looked down upon (who most eventually relocated to Kalm). Yuffie was a perfect example of Wutai, in that they needed materia to make Wutai stronger so that they could drive out Shinra and the Midgar forces and live their peaceful lives.

I think it's obvious that everyone died just from what Bugenhagen said. Holy would wipe out everything bad for the planet and he stopped to wonder if it would decide whether humans were good or bad for it. Then you have the ending 500 years later with no people. Just animals looking at the remains of Midgar.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Think about it. Red XIII was on the Highwind. The Highwind had to survive since he did. Since the Red XIII survived, the Highwind survived, then everyone not in Midgar survived.

 

Don't get into anything like "well maybe the Highwind crashed and Red XIII somehow survived". The only way he survived was because the Highwind did. There is no other explanation. How can there be?

 

This is why I gawk at people who say "everyone died" and only animals remained.

 

Give me a sound explanation of how Red XIII was clearly not on the Highwind, when in fact he was as he was shown in the ending sequence on the Highwind, and I'll accept that all the humans died.

 

Bugenhagen said that the planet would get rid of the people causing it harm. Does that mean everyone of them? No, a choice could be made. Kill everyone and restart, or let some die and have the others realize that they might not be so lucky next time.

 

Since it stopped Meteor it took the second option. And we get to see the results of Midgar destroyed but people carry on.

 

Also because the FFVII movie that will be released in Japan continues the FFVII story two years later (Edit: I might be wrong on how much later, but it is after the original story) it further establishes that the only people who died were in Midgar, in the upper sector.

 

And remember, the people in upper Juno already got killed by the Emerald WEAPON. So the only real threat to the planet was in Midgar.

Edited June 5, 2004 by Lightning Flik

[chaosrage 0]

Think about it. Red XIII was on the Highwind. The Highwind had to survive since he did. Since the Red XIII survived, the Highwind survived, then everyone not in Midgar survived.

 

Don't get into anything like "well maybe the Highwind crashed and Red XIII somehow survived". The only way he survived was because the Highwind did. There is no other explanation. How can there be?

Look at FF6. The airship split in part and they fell out of the sky and EVERYONE still somehow survived. I don't know how he lived, but he must have.

 

Bugenhagen said that the planet would get rid of the people causing it harm. Does that mean everyone of them? No, a choice could be made. Kill everyone and restart, or let some die and have the others realize that they might not be so lucky next time.

 

He actually just said that it could get rid of humans, not just humans causing it harm. The game seemed to be saying that as we advance, we become a danger to the world.

 

Since it stopped Meteor it took the second option. And we get to see the results of Midgar destroyed but people carry on.

 

Then where are the people?

 

Also because the FFVII movie that will be released in Japan continues the FFVII story two years later (Edit: I might be wrong on how much later, but it is after the original story) it further establishes that the only people who died were in Midgar, in the upper sector.

 

And we've bitched about it plenty of times here as Square re-writing history. Yes, it was sort of open ended, as in they didn't tell you straight out what happened, but like I said before, I think it was clear they wanted you to take it a certain way.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Look at FF6.  The airship split in part and they fell out of the sky and EVERYONE still somehow survived.  I don't know how he lived, but he must have.

 

Um... You do realize that can still work with what I just said as well, as they'd all survive if you want to play that game.

 

You do also realize that if Kefka let everyone of the heroes die, he wouldn't get revenge upon them by looking at the World of Ruin and being filled with sadness and despair right? The guy was one sick fucker. It is easily explainable because the bastard is just demented enough that this would be so easy to explain. Even better, is he had the one who harmed him, Celes, be stuck on a lonely island with her sick Grandpa and watch hopelessly on as he withered away (you still should save him).

 

Of course, in hindsight that would be incredibly stupid of him to do so. But no one every said he was an intelligent guy, just a really crazy fellow. That would get major kicks out of all the havoc he could cause, and did cause.

 

He actually just said that it could get rid of humans, not just humans causing it harm.   The game seemed to be saying that as we advance, we become a danger to the world.

 

It still had a choice. Get rid of humans or don't. The game told us that people using Mako and not understanding the disruption would be taken care of. That could be all or some. The some where the people in Upper Midgar and Upper Juno, as the lower sectors (as well as the rest of the world for that matter) never really cared at all about Mako and wished it would go away.

 

If you can take out the source of the problem, without getting your hands dirty, you'd take that road that makes simpliest sense, correct?

 

...I'm so about to get flamed for that one.

 

Then where are the people?

 

I think a lot of people don't get the fact that what Bugenhagen wasn't just for people but everything living would die out. It is a symbol of rebirth, if the planet chose to kill off just the people on the planet that wouldn't do. Everything would have to go and Meteor would've just crashed into the planet as the planet would've survived the impact, the lifestream saved and we'd get rebirth going. The planet would've let Meteor explode into Midgar and we'd get the "Dinosaur Death Theory" end to the world.

 

Instead we see 500 years later, that Red XIII look on with his kids at the fabled place of Midgar. If you actually look at Midgar it isn't a total wasteland that was blown in like a crater would be. It is infact slanted to one side like something hit it on its side and just crushed it to be slanted. There is no indication of said "DDT" (no pun intended, honest) but instead we see plants and that growing on what it once was.

 

Wouldn't a place of death be barren and void of anything symbolized with life?

 

Also everyone would've had to survive as The Highwind was the closest thing to Meteor. Since the Highwind survived, then everyone else in a radius farther away did.

 

And don't use the FF6 problem. I already explained that.

 

And we've bitched about it plenty of times here as Square re-writing history.  Yes, it was sort of open ended, as in they didn't tell you straight out what happened, but like I said before, I think it was clear they wanted you to take it a certain way.

 

How is it changing history? There is a void of five hundred years~! Anything can happen inbetween that time frame. Hell, Nanaki has kids for crying out loud!

 

The only history is that Midgar was destroyed, life was allowed to live on, and that Nanaki had kids. Inbetween then, we don't know much. Maybe the FFVII crew end up dying inbetween then. Maybe Aeris gets revived? Meh. It'd be nice to know, but not something I'd care to know.

Edited June 5, 2004 by Lightning Flik

[chaosrage 0]

Um... You do realize that can still work with what I just said as well, as they'd all survive if you want to play that game.

 

...Except the game doesn't give any reason to think they survived. You know for a fact that Red survived because you see him 500 years later.

 

You do also realize that if Kefka let everyone of the heroes die, he wouldn't get revenge upon them by looking at the World of Ruin and being filled with sadness and despair right?

 

What do you mean "let"? The airship WAS split in two and they did fall out of the sky. How did they survive? Are you trying to say Kefka ran and caught them and then put them in different places around the world?

 

It still had a choice. Get rid of humans or don't. The game told us that people using Mako and not understanding the disruption would be taken care of.

 

Where did it say that?

 

I think a lot of people don't get the fact that what Bugenhagen wasn't just for people but everything living would die out.

 

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against

Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking

Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything

will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

 

Cloud: Even us!?

 

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What

is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo.

I wonder which we humans are?

 

Cloud: Search for Holy... How do we do it?

 

Sounds to me like he's just talking about people. Everything living isn't a threat to the planet, just humans. Only all that is bad will disappear, not everything on Earth. The writers were saying that Earth couldn't survive without the human race. Holy was supposed to save the planet. To do that, it had to get rid of people. Which is why you don't see any in the ending.

 

More evidence that Holy took out more than just Midgar is when Red said "Holy is having the opposite effect. Forget Midgar, we've gotta worry about the planet"

 

Why would he say that if Holy was only taking out Midgar?

 

Also everyone would've had to survive as The Highwind was the closest thing to Meteor. Since the Highwind survived, then everyone else in a radius farther away did.

 

It didn't.

 

How is it changing history? There is a void of five hundred years~! Anything can happen inbetween that time frame. Hell, Nanaki has kids for crying out loud!

 

Because before they wanted you to think no people survived and now they're coming back and saying they did. "HAHA FOOLED YOU"

[Lightning Flik 0]

...Except the game doesn't give any reason to think they survived.  You know for a fact that Red survived because you see him 500 years later.

 

What do you mean "let"?  The airship WAS split in two and they did fall out of the sky.  How did they survive?  Are you trying to say Kefka ran and caught them and then put them in different places around the world?

 

My answer to all that now applies here.

 

Apparently, you forgot the guy is one sick fucker and the fact he's juiced up to the point were he's powered up by the 3 Goddess Idols. Not only that but he split the world apart.

 

Are you saying that it would be so difficult for him to make sure that everyone survived? And everything that happened to everyone was just too freaking good of thing to just "happen" that way. Terra having the kids needing her protection, Sabin trying to keep some order in the world but failing on his own, Edgar having to save Figaro from impending doom, etc. You can not tell me that Kefka just wanted to kill his enemies and be done with it. He wished for them to suffer in the worst possible way and to do that, he needed each and everyone of them alive. To die grants him no satisfaction as a villian. Come on, it is simple psycho villian failing. Keep the hero alive and do something so hideous to them that they come and kill you.

 

That's the only reason why they all survived that stupid fall. Sure he could've killed him like he did all the others before then, but killing only goes so far with madmen before they decide that torturing the person before their death is much better and more satisfying.

 

Hence why it doesn't apply to the Highwind situation. Because unless the lifestream wanted just Nanaki alive, because it wants to preserve his race... It is a little far-fetched it went out of its way to do so. The lifestream isn't like Kefka, it has a one track mind. Kill or don't. You don't get an inbetween like Kefka.

 

That and I'll answer it better later on.

 

It still had a choice. Get rid of humans or don't. The game told us that people using Mako and not understanding the disruption would be taken care of.

 

Where did it say that?

 

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

 

Ok, I admit I stretched that a bit far, but the above shows that the "bad" will disappear. So what I said about the "bad" people of the world is true. They were killed, in Midgar and in Juno. Why kill more than necessary?

 

The planet had a choice to kill everyone or just get rid of the bad people and be done with it. It waited till the last possible moment for Midgar and then stepped in and stopped Meteor from destroying the planet.

 

I think a lot of people don't get the fact that what Bugenhagen wasn't just for people but everything living would die out.

Sounds to me like he's just talking about people. Everything living isn't a threat to the planet, just humans. Only all that is bad will disappear, not everything on Earth. The writers were saying that Earth couldn't survive without the human race. Holy was supposed to save the planet. To do that, it had to get rid of people. Which is why you don't see any in the ending.

 

That's incorrect. The writers were saying that the earth had a choice to restart anew with everyone and everything dead from Meteor or have the planet let everyone live. But I'm about to add with the next quote you so kindly gave me.

 

The reason why it didn't show anyone in the ending is to let you have some fun thinking about what people are doing now that the end of their journey has passed. Honestly, I've gotten tired of seeing what the fuck everyone does with their lives after the journey. I just want there to be a conclusion of what happened and that's it. If you need to use that to tie up a few loose ends, I'm ok with that. No long drawn out endings that just drag to the point they become overdone.

 

Bugenhagen: Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

 

^ may I direct you attention to that line to prove my point. Bugenhagen said "everything will disappear." If everything is to disappear that means every living breathing thing.

 

Oh, and Nanaki would have to be killed as well as humans. He has a human intelligence don't forget. Add the fact that he lived over 500 years, this would mean his kind is as much of a threat as humans because what's to stop his kind from repeating the same mistake the humans made? Sure it would take a long time, and evolution to get to that point, but his kind is almost there.

 

So if Nanaki survives while no one else does, that means he gets specialized treatment for not being human? That's bullshit. Nanaki's race has little bit that doesn't make him "human" other than the fact that he isn't of human. If the planet then goes "humans = danger" then Nanaki's no exception, just because he's an animal.

 

Add to the fact that the planet has a choice of either do or don't with saving what's on its surface.

 

More evidence that Holy took out more than just Midgar is when Red said "Holy is having the opposite effect.  Forget Midgar, we've gotta worry about the planet"

 

Why would he say that if Holy was only taking out Midgar?

 

Easily explained as I said before about getting your hands dirty doing so little. Remember the people in Upper Midgar are still there. They are the only ones left who need Mako. By using Meteor to finish out what it intended to do, kill off the "bad" people, why not do so? And yes, people still were left in Upper Midgar. They had nothing to fear because of the Mako Gun, remember? No one left Upper Midgar, only the Lower Sectors would leave, if you recall (I believe it is Tifa... Not sure, whoever got Marlene out of Midgar says this).

 

After that, there shouldn't be anyone left for them to go after the Mako. So as I said before, if you can get rid of your problem with a simple solution, you'd take it.

 

That's the planet's simple solution. That is a choice as well and it took the first road on that choice.

 

Also everyone would've had to survive as The Highwind was the closest thing to Meteor. Since the Highwind survived, then everyone else in a radius farther away did.

 

It didn't.

 

Because before they wanted you to think no people survived and now they're coming back and saying they did. "HAHA FOOLED YOU"

 

Then everything and everyone would be dead. Including Nanaki.

 

But Nanaki is alive at the end, and since Nanaki survived, the Highwind survived, and since the Highwind survived and was closest to the source of impact, everything else survived. You can't use the FFVI excuse because that was Kefka being f'n Kefka except with Godlike powers.

 

And since they didn't get killed, Square isn't fooling anyone by doing this. Although they pissed me off with what they are probably doing "oh hey some of the idiots that use Mako are alive and these Sephiroth clones are going to get them going again about Mako, so Cloud must stop them."

[Jobber of the Week 0]

And sailors.

The sailors bit has been really really overdone. I always liked the "Have you seen a man in a black car?" bit but people have been catching on to that one, too.

 

My new favorite Shenmue-ism is how he always calls that incident at the family dojo as "the day it rained."

[chaosrage 0]

My answer to all that now applies here.

 

Apparently, you forgot the guy is one sick fucker and the fact he's juiced up to the point were he's powered up by the 3 Goddess Idols. Not only that but he split the world apart.

 

Are you saying that it would be so difficult for him to make sure that everyone survived? And everything that happened to everyone was just too freaking good of thing to just "happen" that way. Terra having the kids needing her protection, Sabin trying to keep some order in the world but failing on his own, Edgar having to save Figaro from impending doom, etc. You can not tell me that Kefka just wanted to kill his enemies and be done with it. He wished for them to suffer in the worst possible way and to do that, he needed each and everyone of them alive. To die grants him no satisfaction as a villian. Come on, it is simple psycho villian failing. Keep the hero alive and do something so hideous to them that they come and kill you.

 

That's the only reason why they all survived that stupid fall. Sure he could've killed him like he did all the others before then, but killing only goes so far with madmen before they decide that torturing the person before their death is much better and more satisfying.

 

Hence why it doesn't apply to the Highwind situation. Because unless the lifestream wanted just Nanaki alive, because it wants to preserve his race... It is a little far-fetched it went out of its way to do so. The lifestream isn't like Kefka, it has a one track mind. Kill or don't. You don't get an inbetween like Kefka.

 

Uhh, this isn't far fetched? Why does he let Shadow die if you don't wait for him?

 

Holy has a one track mind. Kill the humans, don't kill anyone else. Nanaki was the only one who survived because Holy only wanted to kill the others.

 

What makes you think it was even an explosion that would've killed everyone? Bugenhagen seemed to think they would just disappear.

 

Hell, how do we know that it was even Nanaki at the end? Maybe it was just another of his species that looked like him. We know there was at least one more, there had to be others.

 

Ok, I admit I stretched that a bit far, but the above shows that the "bad" will disappear. So what I said about the "bad" people of the world is true.

 

"I wonder which we humans are." Keyword: WE. He's talking about humans as a race. Unfortunately, the planet sees them as bad. I can't remember any place in the game saying that only SOME people would be wiped out.

 

They were killed, in Midgar and in Juno. Why kill more than necessary?

 

Because it wouldn't be more than necessary. If Shinra didn't come along, other people wanting to use Mako would. There would always be people that would drain the planet of it's life for it's resources. So wiping us out is what would be best for the world.

 

That's incorrect. The writers were saying that the earth had a choice to restart anew with everyone and everything dead from Meteor or have the planet let everyone live.

 

I agree, but without people this time, which is why you don't see any, just animals.

 

The reason why it didn't show anyone in the ending is to let you have some fun thinking about what people are doing now that the end of their journey has passed. Honestly, I've gotten tired of seeing what the fuck everyone does with their lives after the journey. I just want there to be a conclusion of what happened and that's it. If you need to use that to tie up a few loose ends, I'm ok with that. No long drawn out endings that just drag to the point they become overdone.

 

It didn't have to show you what happened with their lives, just some signs of civilization 500 years later. Especially if you think anybody in the other sectors survived. But it shows just the opposite. Only trees and grass. Or they could have some kids looking at Midgar with the lion creatures, but there wasn't any.

 

^ may I direct you attention to that line to prove my point. Bugenhagen said "everything will disappear." If everything is to disappear that means every living breathing thing.

 

Everything that the planet sees as bad. Perhaps even us.

 

Oh, and Nanaki would have to be killed as well as humans. He has a human intelligence don't forget. Add the fact that he lived over 500 years, this would mean his kind is as much of a threat as humans because what's to stop his kind from repeating the same mistake the humans made? Sure it would take a long time, and evolution to get to that point, but his kind is almost there.

 

Apparently you're forgetting that humans are EVIL. Other creatures would certainly have more respect for their planet.

 

So if Nanaki survives while no one else does, that means he gets specialized treatment for not being human? That's bullshit.

 

See, that's what we're saying.

 

Easily explained as I said before about getting your hands dirty doing so little. Remember the people in Upper Midgar are still there. They are the only ones left who need Mako. By using Meteor to finish out what it intended to do, kill off the "bad" people, why not do so? And yes, people still were left in Upper Midgar. They had nothing to fear because of the Mako Gun, remember? No one left Upper Midgar, only the Lower Sectors would leave, if you recall (I believe it is Tifa... Not sure, whoever got Marlene out of Midgar says this).

 

After that, there shouldn't be anyone left for them to go after the Mako. So as I said before, if you can get rid of your problem with a simple solution, you'd take it.

 

But note that he didn't say "forget Midgar, we have to worry about the Lower Sectors." He said we have to worry about the planet. The meteor was only going to destroy Midgar until Holy showed up. When it started to help out the meteor instead of destroying it, the whole world was in danger because it saw the people as a bigger threat than the meteor.

 

Then everything and everyone would be dead. Including Nanaki.

 

But Nanaki is alive at the end, and since Nanaki survived, the Highwind survived, and since the Highwind survived and was closest to the source of impact, everything else survived. You can't use the FFVI excuse because that was Kefka being f'n Kefka except with Godlike powers.

 

Then the lifestream was just being the fucking lifestream. Since other FF games have taught me that you can survive a crashed ship, Nanaki surviving while the highwind doesn't come to much of a surprise. If you don't like the FF6 example, then in FF4, Cid JUMPED out of the airship with bombs strapped to his body and STILL lived. Characters in FF games can fall out of airships and live.

 

Since the Highwind didn't have to survive, none of the characters had to survive. Since the characters didn't have to survive and none of the people in Midgar did survive, Holy must have decided that humans were bad for the planet like Bugenhagen said it might. Since it decided that, there are no humans left on the planet. Since there are no humans left on the planet, the Square writers are trying to rewrite history and they're assholes.

[Anya 0]

I've never understood how anyone could watch the ending and get the impression that Holy helped Meteor or whatever. It looks quite clear to me that it tried to stop it but Meteor was simply too strong and pushed through.

 

 

I've always thought the "opposite effect" thing was a mistranslation. The full quote is "It's too late for Holy. Meteor is approaching the planet. Holy is having the opposite effect. Forget Midgar we've got to worry about the planet".

 

The part about it being too late makes no sense if you go with "Holy decided humans are evil" scenario. The time it was unleashed has nothing to do with it if it's not working on purpose.

 

I also don't understand why the planet would be in danger if that was the case. If it's wiping out humans to protect the planet...why would the entire planet be in danger then? If it's intelligent enough to realize humans are a threat surely it's not going to take them out while also putting the entire planet at risk.

 

If the end is supposed to be that Holy decides humanity is bad and helps Meteor then what's the point of the Lifestream part?

 

 

I think Red means "Meteor is approaching, Holy isn't stopping it like we thought it would".

 

 

It's clear when Bugenhagen says all bad things will just disapear he didn't mean literally, or if he did he was mistaken. Holy hits the Highwind and even pushes it away and none of the people inside disapear or vaporize. It also can't apparently just make Meteor disapear.

 

 

It would be interesting to see how the Japanese translation is worded. Also I can't wait to see what kind of light Advent Children sheds on this issue.