So, Think This Will Get Any Media Attention?

[Guest MikeSC]

Was Hero to All Children just soccer mom'd?

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

God Damn, Slapnuts! I'll believe you just because I'm not wasting my time reading all that shit.

 

And what the hell is "Soccer Mom'd" -- when and where did this stupid phrase come from?...

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Okay, here's the thing I have about the Israel conflict that I'm not wildly supportive of. Keep in mind that although I keep abreast of the conflict from time to time, I haven't done a ton of research about it, but I've made some idle obeservations over time.

 

I don't think either of them makes me anti-Semetic, since I've known people for as long as over a year and never known their Jewish until they told me, and my opinion of them doesn't change because of it. To me, that means I'm not biased against Jewish people, because if it did, it would mean I would think less of them.

 

HOWEVER...

 

1) Crazy, unrealistic hypothetical situation time: Let's assume we have a lot of empty land in a cluster of flyover states. Let's assume we have the ability and legal red tape taken care of to declare this land for Israeli use and call all Israelis who want to escape the violence to come here within our borders where they'll be protected. They wouldn't come.

 

Now, it's true that there's a lot of people who just want to be able to go out to a nightclub and dance without fear of a bomb going off. Godspeed to them. They'd probably be the ones coming over. But there's a lot of biblical homeland bullshit that a lot of people seem willing to fight over. In the various peace accords we've watched come and fail over the years, the two sides have argued over everything down to whose religious statues will be placed in the holy city.

 

Now, in my mind it is a government's priority to first and foremost secure it's people at a cost that's reasonable for the situation. When you have people dying, it's the wrong time to squabble over religious symbolism, whose biblical homeland this or that is, etc. A mosque on Main Street is small potatoes if a wedding party isn't turned into body fragments.

 

Obviously, the Palestinian government is equally responsible for refusing to waver on these issues as the Israeli government is. However, there is a grouping of people who would let loose subtle accusations of racism on my above paragraphs, but would simply nod their head in agreement if I said "Gee, you know, if the PA honestly wanted to give their people disease-free water, they'd put up with that Star of David in the town square."

 

That winds up being simple issues like the above one, that we should all agree with, into "racist/not racist" arguements.

 

 

2) This is a completely personal one.

 

We've done a LOT for these people over the decades. I think we can agree they'd be in a lot worse situation these days if it weren't for America, and the people there are pretty grateful of it.

 

The other day I heard someone support the idea of us going into Iran on a WMD hunt if necessary in order to protect Israel. The country now has an actively-working military and some of their soldiers rival the best-trained US troops. They have military hardware that are based on our own designs, and they have nuclear weapons of their own.

 

So, basically, what I'm asking is: Aside from the domestic scuffle, which obviously would be overkill for all this firepower, why can't this government wage some war of their own instead of us hoofing it all the way over there and neutralizing a threat. Is their rubber-stamping of all our international policy decisions really worth all that? Again, I'm talking about the government here, and not the people. You "FRENCH SUK BECUZ THEIR GOVMINT IS BAD SO THEY ALL R EVIL" people might not be able to fully comprehend this one.

 

That much said, I really don't have any other controversial opinions on the subject. Most the "if Israel wanted peace they'd do (x)" shit can be also said of the PA.

[Guest MikeSC]

Okay, here's the thing I have about the Israel conflict that I'm not wildly supportive of. Keep in mind that although I keep abreast of the conflict from time to time, I haven't done a ton of research about it, but I've made some idle obeservations over time.

Fair enough. I will be polite in my likely critique.

1) Crazy, unrealistic hypothetical situation time: Let's assume we have a lot of empty land in a cluster of flyover states. Let's assume we have the ability and legal red tape taken care of to declare this land for Israeli use and call all Israelis who want to escape the violence to come here within our borders where they'll be protected.  They wouldn't come.

 

Now, it's true that there's a lot of people who just want to be able to go out to a nightclub and dance without fear of a bomb going off. Godspeed to them. They'd probably be the ones coming over. But there's a lot of biblical homeland bullshit that a lot of people seem willing to fight over. In the various peace accords we've watched come and fail over the years, the two sides have argued over everything down to whose religious statues will be placed in the holy city.

Unless I'm WAY off, the most holy place for Islam is in Arabia, not in present-day Israel --- while the most holy place for both Judaism and Christianity are both in Israel.

 

However, would Israelis come if we offered them land NOW? No. They are in their homeland now.

 

Let's say we offered it to them after WWII? Yes, they likely would have come.

Now, in my mind it is a government's priority to first and foremost secure it's people at a cost that's reasonable for the situation. When you have people dying, it's the wrong time to squabble over religious symbolism, whose biblical homeland this or that is, etc. A mosque on Main Street is small potatoes if a wedding party isn't turned into body fragments.

True --- but the worst possible solution is to simply give the people who commit the violence what they want. It simply indicates that if they want more --- they simply have to become violent again. It'll generate a never-ending cycle.

Obviously, the Palestinian government is equally responsible for refusing to waver on these issues as the Israeli government is. However, there is a grouping of people who would let loose subtle accusations of racism on my above paragraphs, but would simply nod their head in agreement if I said "Gee, you know, if the PA honestly wanted to give their people disease-free water, they'd put up with that Star of David in the town square."

You seem to forget one little thing: Why are the Palestinians "homeless"?

 

Because none of the Arab states that LOVE to exploit them will give them any land.

 

Hell, Israel gives their Palestinians more protections than ARAB states would give them.

That winds up being simple issues like the above one, that we should all agree with, into "racist/not racist" arguements.

 

 

2) This is a completely personal one.

 

We've done a LOT for these people over the decades. I think we can agree they'd be in a lot worse situation these days if it weren't for America, and the people there are pretty grateful of it.

 

The other day I heard someone support the idea of us going into Iran on a WMD hunt if necessary in order to protect Israel. The country now has an actively-working military and some of their soldiers rival the best-trained US troops.

Jobber, I will guarantee you this --- if we went to war with Iran, it'd be EASIER than an Iraqi war. Their troops AREN'T that well-trained and their equipment is horrible. It'd be a total rout.

 

Just remember, in 1991, people expected Iraq to give us a huge fit in the war --- and we simply walked right through them.

They have military hardware that are based on our own designs, and they have nuclear weapons of their own

The entire world's military technology is several generations behind ours. That needs to be remembered.

So, basically, what I'm asking is: Aside from the domestic scuffle, which obviously would be overkill for all this firepower, why can't this government wage some war of their own instead of us hoofing it all the way over there and neutralizing a threat.

Sorry, but I'm really not sure what the question here is. You lost me.

That much said, I really don't have any other controversial opinions on the subject. Most the "if Israel wanted peace they'd do (x)" shit can be also said of the PA.

Jobber, that premise is demonstrably false. The PALESTINIANS MIGHT be willing to accept peace -- the PA is not.

 

Israel gave them almost everything they wanted --- and Arafat walked away.

 

That shows that the PA's concern is not peace --- it is the annihilation of Israel.

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

Okay, I read all of this and ... this will sound harsh but I'll quote a German artist who witnessed the Nazi parades in Munich back in the 1930's. "Ich kann nicht so viel essen wie ich kotzen will."

 

I will not refute every point for a few logical reasons:

Many of these fact-myth things don't even address anything I've said. (I never said that the Jews started the first Arab-Israeli war and I never implied that the Arab nations didn't worsen the plight of the Palestinians.)

I agree with half of it anyways.

It's a lot more efficient.

 

Remember, http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html is your best source for understanding Israel and the many misperceptions held against its history, people and policies.

 

Consider the source. If it were an independent organization with less of an obvious agenda than this my mind would actually be a lot more open towards their reasonings, but this way I always have the inevitable and massive bias lingering in the back of my head.

 

 

 

1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

1- Doesn't matter. The same could be said about the Sudeten-Deutsche who went down the Daneube and cultivated land in what is now the Chzech Republic. Hitler lost the war, they got kicked out, end of story. Argentina isn't crying for them and neither should you.

2- No one respects the international community less than Israel.

3- This is a more or less valid point, yet the question remains: Were these wars provoked in anyhow?

4- Again: Doesn't matter. Holy scriptures should not affect a secular government/world.

 

 

Myth “Modern Arab nations are only anti-Israel and have never been anti-Jewish.”

 

Whoa .. when did I ever claim that? I mean .. I'd have to be blind and deaf and dumb not to notice a raging anti-Semitism in a lot of Muslim countries and Muslim communities in other countries.

All I said was:

B) I don't see the Jews being hunted with machetes in the US, Canada, Germany, Japan, etc. Admittedly there are very, very few Jews in Japan but it still gets the point accross. The whole world at large doesn't hate the Jews, it most likely doesn't even care.

Which is true. The world at large is not Arabian or Judeo-Christian, the world at large is African-Indian-Chinese. Everything that isn't northern Africa has a lot worse problems than Israel.

 

Many Muslims may hate Jews (and boy, judging by my Jewish friends it's quite mutual) but they're still not the majority in the world.

You can be as Jewish as you want in Germany, the US, Canada, Japan and other "Western Civilized" countries and aside of the occasional nutter no one will bother you. Unless you're in France but we already talked about this.

 

And hey, how many Jews are there in the US? I mean .. it's ought to be a few million, right? There's far less in Germany but they have a strong political presence. They're not being sent to camps any time soon either.

 

MYTH

 

“The Soviet Union vigorously opposed partition.”

 

The Soviet Union is dead, long live Russia. Russia has no great agenda in the middle east, they're diplomatically friendly with Israel or impartial unless I'm mistaken. Putin has nothing to lose and nothing to gain from supporting or decrying Israel within Russia itself. So really, if there was a grand-scale holocaust about to start up Russia would fight it but only because of international treaties. A significant ammount of the Russian Jews left for Israel during the oppressive Soviet times either way.

 

 

“Palestine was always an Arab country.”

I sure as hell didn't say this. The Jews were there more or less first with about a century or two lead on the Palestinians or whoever it was at that time.

 

And yes, the Palestinian movement started after Palestine actually got an identity of its own within the Israeli supression, after a whole generation was raised in the refugee camps (which are still standing) who were .. for the lack of a better term royally pissed at the world. It's not good, it's not justifiable, it's a natural reaction and consequence.

 

Again the historic right of the Jews to settle in Israel. It's void, it's pointless. I hate citing these Germans who were displaced again and again, but it's pretty much the most ironic example I can find. It's like the Indians in America, they were also displaced. I don't see them having a nation of their own now either. Or the Australian Aboriginies and holy don't even start me on all of Africa and the collonial times. The damage has been done, the people have been displaced, you can't demand that everything is returned to the way it was X-years ago, especially when this time of legit and total rule of the said people (Jews in this example) was so many generations ago.

 

 

 

... This sure as hell doesn't look like the map of Israel looks today.

 

I do admit being wrong on the "fertile land" point, though. My source on that one was unreliable as hell. I appologize.

 

But I would also like to point out that there was a fair share of Jewish terrorism against the Brits. You can deny it all you want but Ephraim Kishon (a rather famous Israeli satirist and also decidedly pro-Israel) himself noted how many federal buildings kept the barbed-wire fortifications the British had formerly installed to protect themselves from the Jews and that the Israeli government just kept these around out of laziness. (By god I can quote this word for word if you want me to, my father has the collected works of that guy.)

 

 

It's an ugly chapter in the Israeli history but prior to the declaration of the Israeli nation there was a lot of guerillia fighting on both sides, which is why the British deserted their Palestine in first place.

 

Which brings me right to:

“The Jews started the first war with the Arabs.”

I never claimed that. The war was threatened in the case of the establishment of Israel as a sovereign nation, that happened and it was declared. No room for arguementation there.

 

However, it'd be wrong to deny the rather terroristic tactics that were employed on both sides prior to 1948.

 

 

 

Myth

“Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”

 

I never implied that, that'd be an outrageously obvious and stupid lie.

 

Myth

"Israel discriminates against its Arab citizens."

 

Sadly this doesn't really apply to Palestinians. It's a common misconception on both sides that Israel treats all Arabs equal (equally bad or equally well.)

Otherwise Palestinians wouldn't have to go through checkpoints, otherwise whole townships that depend on employment within Israel wouldn't be closed off in the name of security. The wall is also a nice example.

 

Certainly, some of the meassures are sensible ones when it comes to the security of the Jewish people. But I do wonder how much bulldozing the homes of the families of suicide bombers will de-escalate the situation instead of worsening it.

 

I don't believe that you can say that the Palestinians are being treated as equals by the Israelis while maintaining a clear conscience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

JESUS CHRIST that was long and I still haven't had my coffee.

 

In abbendum: Soccer Mom'd probably refers to schooling someone politically ignorant like a soccer mom. I certainly hope that I'm not viewed as one, seeing as I can more or less state a rational if disputable point. I rather enjoy these conversations, though. And I promise to remain diplomatic and polite if everyone does.

[Vyce 0]

Arab Muslims already have 640 times Israel's land mass, 60 times her population and all the oil.

 

Their religious dictum that the entire planet must submit to Islamic control is unreasonable and impractical. What do you say we ask them to give it up? Then we could all start living happily ever after.

[Guest MikeSC]

1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

1- Doesn't matter. The same could be said about the Sudeten-Deutsche who went down the Daneube and cultivated land in what is now the Chzech Republic. Hitler lost the war, they got kicked out, end of story. Argentina isn't crying for them and neither should you.

2- No one respects the international community less than Israel.

3- This is a more or less valid point, yet the question remains: Were these wars provoked in anyhow?

4- Again: Doesn't matter. Holy scriptures should not affect a secular government/world.

Umm, the first war started the DAY Israel was founded. Hard to, you know, provoke a war --- well, unless one considers "Being Jewish" sufficient provocation for war.

B) I don't see the Jews being hunted with machetes in the US, Canada, Germany, Japan, etc. Admittedly there are very, very few Jews in Japan but it still gets the point accross. The whole world at large doesn't hate the Jews, it most likely doesn't even care.

Which is true. The world at large is not Arabian or Judeo-Christian, the world at large is African-Indian-Chinese. Everything that isn't northern Africa has a lot worse problems than Israel.

The world is INCREASINGLY becoming anti-Semitic. It is a big problem in Europe presently.

 

And, when you have other countries who have ALL of their neighbors working on a platform of their extinction, then other might have it worse than Israel.

Many Muslims may hate Jews (and boy, judging by my Jewish friends it's quite mutual) but they're still not the majority in the world.

Hmm, why do Jews hate Muslims? Well, that whole CONSTANT BOMBING OF INNOCENTS IN ISRAEL might cause a little, well-earned animosity.

You can be as Jewish as you want in Germany, the US, Canada, Japan and other "Western Civilized" countries and aside of the occasional nutter no one will bother you.  Unless you're in France but we already talked about this.

It's a problem in W. Europe --- Germany is hardly innocent.

And hey, how many Jews are there in the US? I mean .. it's ought to be a few million, right? There's far less in Germany but they have a strong political presence. They're not being sent to camps any time soon either.

Well, if you listen to the Arab countries, our gov;t is run by the Jews.

And yes, the Palestinian movement started after Palestine actually got an identity of its own within the Israeli supression, after a whole generation was raised in the refugee camps (which are still standing) who were .. for the lack of a better term royally pissed at the world. It's not good, it's not justifiable, it's a natural reaction and consequence

.

Except they hate Israel --- and not EVERY ARAB STATE who has refused to accept them.

Again the historic right of the Jews to settle in Israel. It's void, it's pointless. I hate citing these Germans who were displaced again and again, but it's pretty much the most ironic example I can find. It's like the Indians in America, they were also displaced. I don't see them having a nation of their own now either. Or the Australian Aboriginies and holy don't even start me on all of Africa and the collonial times. The damage has been done, the people have been displaced, you can't demand that everything is returned to the way it was X-years ago, especially when this time of legit and total rule of the said people (Jews in this example) was so many generations ago.

Jews had been persecuted for almost 2000 years. They had NOWHERE where they could be safe from it.

 

The world OWED them that after the world --- including the U.S --- turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

Myth

"Israel discriminates against its Arab citizens."

 

Sadly this doesn't really apply to Palestinians. It's a common misconception on both sides that Israel treats all Arabs equal (equally bad or equally well.)

Otherwise Palestinians wouldn't have to go through checkpoints, otherwise whole townships that depend on employment within Israel wouldn't be closed off in the name of security. The wall is also a nice example.

Palestinians serve in the Knesset. The ONLY reason Israel has ANY measures against them is due to being a little tired of, you know, seeing its citizens bombed regularly.

 

Funny that people don't mind ARAB STATES building up walls against Muslims terrorists (I know Arabia built one).

Certainly, some of the meassures are sensible ones when it comes to the security of the Jewish people. But I do wonder how much bulldozing the homes of the families of suicide bombers will de-escalate the situation instead of worsening it.

No response doesn't work. They tried giving them everything for peace. That failed.

 

Israel doesn't really have alternatives left to try.

I don't believe that you can say that the Palestinians are being treated as equals by the Israelis while maintaining a clear conscience.

They're being treated as equally as humanly possible.

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

So quite frankly you're saying that some residents of the middle east are more equal than others due to a historical pity bonus?

[Guest MikeSC]

So quite frankly you're saying that some residents of the middle east are more equal than others due to a historical pity bonus?

I'm saying that, like communities when pedophiles move in, current inhabitants deserve protections against predatory animals.

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

So you are saying that we should deny people their constitutionally guranteed (and to me god damned holy) rights so the majority can feel safe?

 

And wouldn't it make a lot more sense to get rid of Sharon and have someone like Rabin succeed him? You know .. Izack Rabin, the guy who actually managed to sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians and was assassinated by a terrorist. An Israeli conservative Jewish terrorist and not a Palestinian.

 

Peace is all together possible if you stop bulldozing homes and give people liberty, on both sides. The Palestinians don't have much to lose and already agreed to it back in 1993. Quite a few Israeli's themselves are sick of this bullshit themselves. They don't parade up and down the street like happy Brazillians when Israel liquidates/executes/neutralizes/murders another Hamas leader but instead they sigh and say "great, now they'll send an even larger wave of suicide bombers to avenge their fallen leader."

 

These people are all together tired of War All The Time, terrorism and such. They just want some kind of peace, they're all together willing to compromise just like the Palestinians who'd like to some day be able to work normal jobs and live in peace themselves.

 

The only people who still actively pursue this brutal game of chicken (we'll put our guns down after they have put their guns down) are political fanatics, hardliners. People who are either not likely to die of this conflict or those who feel that god will accept them with open arms if they're killed.

 

As in: total assholes who don't actually have anything to lose in this gamble.

[Guest MikeSC]

So you are saying that we should deny people their constitutionally guranteed (and to me god damned holy) rights so the majority can feel safe?

Yup. Pedophiles have to do it regularly. Why should I treat a terrorist any better?

And wouldn't it make a lot more sense to get rid of Sharon and have someone like Rabin succeed him? You know .. Izack Rabin, the guy who actually managed to sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians and was assassinated by a terrorist. An Israeli conservative Jewish terrorist and not a Palestinian.

You'd think so --- but then I could mention Barak and the concessions and he made and just how far that went (Arafat walked out and declared an intifada) to kind of disprove that notion.

 

It's not like peace has not been offered to them. They REJECTED it. Oh well, that was their choice.

Peace is all together possible if you stop bulldozing homes and give people liberty, on both sides. The Palestinians don't have much to lose and already agreed to it back in 1993.

You see, you seem to forget the whole Barak administration in Israel. He offered them MORE than Rabin --- A LOT more --- and they still turned it down.

 

BTW, they didn't accept it from Rabin, either.

Quite a few Israeli's themselves are sick of this bullshit themselves. They don't parade up and down the street like happy Brazillians when Israel liquidates/executes/neutralizes/murders another Hamas leader but instead they sigh and say "great, now they'll send an even larger wave of suicide bombers to avenge their fallen leader."

If somebody had a shot at killing Hitler before he started conquering Europe, I'd have no problem telling somebody to take it.

 

Ditto ANY leader of Hamas.

These people are all together tired of War All The Time, terrorism and such. They just want some kind of peace, they're all together willing to compromise just like the Palestinians who'd like to some day be able to work normal jobs and live in peace themselves.

When part of the CHARTER of the group that claims to represent you is the eradication of Israel --- peace isn't possible.

 

Again, Hitler promised that if the West gave him Czechoslovakia, he'd be satisfied and not demand more.

 

That worked out well, right?

The only people who still actively pursue this brutal game of chicken (we'll put our guns down after they have put their guns down) are political fanatics, hardliners. People who are either not likely to die of this conflict or those who feel that god will accept them with open arms if they're killed.

 

As in: total assholes who don't actually have anything to lose in this gamble.

WHY was Sharon elected?

 

Because Israel GAVE PEACE A CHANCE. They had Barak giving Arafat 98% of his demands --- and he walked away.

 

They then realized that the powers that control Palestine DON'T WANT PEACE. So, they had to deal with the reality that they were presented.

-=Mike