Kane vs Benoit

[Guest Real F'n Show]

What's with all the fucking marks invading the "smart" marks? There's a reason I only post on this board anymore, please ban them.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, but there's a cut-off. Like you, or -ib-, or Rico. You guys at least have some sort of structure to your posts. This guy has the longest sentences on the board. He uses more "ands" in one line than a fucking novel. His posts are that of a 6 year old...

 

"I went to the ice cream shop and I ate some ice cream and it was really good and I asked my mom if I could have some more and she said no and I cried and she said ok and I had some more and my tummy hurt and I threw up and then I played with my transformers and it was fun."

[Dark Age 0]

How can you ban someone for having a different opinion than the majority? You smarks, all the same. Taker and Kane rule. Benoit sucks. Kane carried Benoit in their match at BB. Blah blah blah.

[theintensifier 0]

Some of you people are stupid for wanting me banned just because I thought a match was a classic.

How are we stupid?

 

When one of us says a match is classic, we lay out reasons why the match was a classic match.

 

Like for example: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin I Quit match at WM 13. This match is a classic because it was a double turn. Meaning Austin went from heel to face, and Bret from face to heel. The workrate was great, heat was out of this world, it was very suspenseful with Austin refusing to tap out while completely covered in blood making him the badass of the WWF. Bret went on to become a huge heel, and Austin became the biggest babyface and by far most popular wrestler in WWF history. And the red hot Austin vs. Hart Foundation feud that would make the WWF make a ton of money. AND it being called Match of the Decade! Am I forgeting anything else?

 

Does Benoit vs. Kane fit any of that Evil Blood?

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Bold prediction: This thread will be moved to Hardcore, instead of having Evil Blood banned for sucking more than everyone else.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Just because I enjoy a match doesn't mean I consider it a classic. Look at all the problems I posted about the match on page 2. You might not care to see those problems but I do. Did I enjoy the match, yes but there have been hundreds of matches that are much better. Just because the match is injoyable doesn't make it a classic. It's a solid match but looking closely and analysing the work I can name things that bring that match down. Dissaprove me of the faults I found in that matchand to me there're enough fault's for me not to consider the match classic compared to the matches I have seen. Do you want me to break down every flaw the match has? It would take me more than a page.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Real F'n Show you rip on the guy for calling Benoit vs Kane match a classic that I guess he really injoyed but then when I explain why I think the Benoit vs Angle match is not a classic you rip on me to. I guess because you injoyed it it's a classic to you. That's fine but I explained to you the problems in the match which detracted from my enjoyment. I never called the match poor and you're contradicting yourself because you want him to explain why the Kane match is a classic(calling him a mark) but then you get on me for explaining why the Angle match was not.

[Dark Age 0]

What? I really have no idea what you just said.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

It wasn't as good as the ME, but it was serviceable.

[theintensifier 0]

Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit Royal Rumble 2003

 

Was it a great match? Yes.

Was it a MOTYC? Yes.

Was it the MOTY? No.

Was it a classic? Almost.

Was there any classic matches in 2003? Yes. There were two. One was puro, and one was US indy.

 

I'm not going to nit pick the match, but at that point in time, Benoit and Angle should have been having Misawa/Kobashi caliber matches.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

If you meant that for me Dark Age I'll explain. The poster Real F'n Show want's a criteria from the other poster on what makes the Kane match a classic(regardless of the enjoyment of the match) but when I give my creteria for why the Angle vs Benoit match is not a classic he gets on me for being to critical and not just enjoying it. Is that clearer?

[Guest 2pacallyps]

For WWE maybe it was a MOTYC but for wrestling matches all over the world not even close.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Some of you people are stupid for wanting me banned just because I thought a match was a classic.

How are we stupid?

 

When one of us says a match is classic, we lay out reasons why the match was a classic match.

 

Like for example: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin I Quit match at WM 13. This match is a classic because it was a double turn. Meaning Austin went from heel to face, and Bret from face to heel. The workrate was great, heat was out of this world, it was very suspenseful with Austin refusing to tap out while completely covered in blood making him the badass of the WWF. Bret went on to become a huge heel, and Austin became the biggest babyface and by far most popular wrestler in WWF history. And the red hot Austin vs. Hart Foundation feud that would make the WWF make a ton of money. AND it being called Match of the Decade! Am I forgeting anything else?

 

Does Benoit vs. Kane fit any of that Evil Blood?

You'll get a lot farther here without sounding like a condescending prick.

 

He knows what a double turn is.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Sorry I'm talking about the Angle vs Benoit match maybe being the MOTYC for WWE. Really it wasn't a great match intensifier. Also why do you not want to nitpick the match?

[Guest Real F'n Show]

2pacallyps, I undertstand where you are coming from, but explain to me in more detail why you don't consider Benoit vs. Angle a classic.

 

Kane vs. Benoit was not a classic for a few simple reasons. First of all, there was hardly any build at all for the match, where as in Angle vs. Benoit, the two had been feuding for months, and even formed a tag team for awhile, before breaking up. Kane vs. Benoit had no build at all, with Kane simply winning a number 1 contender's battle royal. He had had no previous interaction at all, and was still involved in the Lita angle at this time. It was pointless to put Kane in the match, other than get him over as a monster. They could have easily had Edge win the battle royal and feud with Benoit in a face vs. face feud and eventually turn Edge heel. Kane could have easily wrestled Matt Hardy at Bad Blood as well.

 

Secondly, Kane is not a good worker. I'm sorry to bust Evil Blood's bubble, but the guy is a hoss. He has no sense of psyhcology, or how to work a decent match. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is, and I apologize if your a Kane fan.

 

Finally, the match ended with a roll-up. In a title match. On PPV. I fucking hate that finish. Benoit builds to the Crossface the entire match, and the match ends with a roll-up. While I understand that the WWE was simply trying to keep Kane as a monster by not having him tap out, they should be putting over there champion here as "for real" like the catchphrase says, and pinning someone with a roll-up instead of making him tap out doesn't really qualify as being "for real" if you ask me.

 

Now, if you will please explain to me why you don't think Angle/Benoit is a classic we can end this arguement.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

The surprise roll up, which was more like a cradle pin, opens doors for a rematch and actual build-up.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

I actually said it on page 2 but I'll do it again. There was no psychology in the match. No arm work before the crossface, no leg work before the ankle lock, all the back work went to waste and they weren't selling it, the 2 long chinlocks that were there to kill time and not to really progress a story, etc. The Whole F'n Show if you want me to go into full detail please tell me and I'll write specific instances and flaws in the match tomorrow. It might be a classic to you but I find way to many flaws in the match.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

So Benoit working over the leg four about 3-4 minutes with basement dropkicks doesn't count? Or the fact that Benoit's previous neck problems was the target of the chinlock (that wasn't a chinlock, more like a wrenching chin lock) doesn't work into the match?

[Guest 2pacallyps]

I'll rewatch the match tomorrow and I'll keep the dropkicks in mind. Also when Angle put on the chinlock he was not targeting the neck before. He worked on the back not the neck so he should have focused a submission on the back. Angle isn't a smart technical wrestler that's a knock on him. Being a great amature wrestler doesn't equal to being a great technical wrestler. Also who ever said Benoit and Angle should have Misawa/Kobashi matches that's absurd. Angle is not on benoit's level and Benoit is no where near Misawa and Kobashi.

[Guest Real F'n Show]

While the Misawa/Kobashi reference may be absurd, there are some similarities in the Misawa/Kawada matches. In fact, I recall a column that Tim Livingston wrote once for 411mania, I'll try and find it.

[Guest Real F'n Show]

Here it is:

 

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/...columns_id=1942

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Great, now we get the Puro comparisons.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

You can not compare good matches to great ones. Misawa/Kawada is a legendary feud that produced some of the best matches ever Benoit/Angle have not. Please go see the 6/3/94 match between Misawa and Kawada which is considered the best singles match ever and tell me that the two feuds should be compared.

[Guest Real F'n Show]

I didn't say they should be compared, I said there are some similarities. I didn't write the article, I'm just saying it's a good read, that's all.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I have little to no interest in Puro. I'll stick to my own countries wrestling, thank you very much.

[Guest Real F'n Show]

Yeah, I'm getting pretty tired of discussing this. I'm done trying to convince you that Angle/Benoit is better than 'good.'

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Man of 1,004 modes you must be talking about Benoit vs Kane because in Benoit vs Angle match nobody does a dropkick to the leg. Also the chinlock with the legs hocked around the body is a rest hold because Benoit doesn't sell his neck and only his back has been worked on. The only move to the leg was a dragonscrew by Benoit to set up the sharpshooter. In the whole damn match before the ankle lock that was the only move done to the leg and Angle didn't work on the leg at all nor did he sell his leg or arm after being put in the crossface and the ankle lock. The early arm/shoulder work by Angle and the rib stomach work by Angle/Benoit leads nowhere, is not sold, and never worked on again. If Benoit sold the stomach/ribs after the chinlock with the hocked legs around that area it would make the move look more than a rest hold. Instead to me it seems like they're just trying to kill time instead of focusing on a certain body part and staying on it. All the suplexes don't lead to anything because in the end all the focus is on the two submission hold that don't connect with the whole body of the match(all the suplex variations tied in with strikes and a couple closeline). Also if Benoit went back to the sharpshooter after all the moves to the back that would make sense since it hurt's the back and that's what Angle sold after being put in the sharpshooter in the beginning. That would tie up the back work by Benoit. Sorry for the long post.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Oh, I thought you meant Benoit/Kane. I got mixed around because of the discussion of both matches, and that some people were complaining about both.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I actually said it on page 2 but I'll do it again. There was no psychology in the match. No arm work before the crossface, no leg work before the ankle lock, all the back work went to waste and they weren't selling it, the 2 long chinlocks that were there to kill time and not to really progress a story, etc. The Whole F'n Show if you want me to go into full detail please tell me and I'll write specific instances and flaws in the match tomorrow. It might be a classic to you but I find way to many flaws in the match.

There is physcology in every match. Phyyscology is why you do something and everything has a reason for being done. There is"good" and "bad" physcolgy in a match. I assume you think this match has bad physcology. I think if you look at the WWE title match from a different perspective perhaps you'll like it better and see that it does have some nice physcology. It is a game of desperation/oneupmanship complete with a dramatic pulse.

 

 

 

Forgive my memory on this memory but I'm going to do my best to analyze some of it. Is it a perfect match? No, but it is one awesome ride and a match that indeed has psychology.

 

 

There doesn't have to be armwork before a crossface is hit. If you have an opportunity to get your finisher on even though you haven't worked on a bodypart previously why wouldn't you do it? Exactly, you would do it. Ditto with the ankle lock. Try looking at it differently than the way you want it to go down.

 

The 2 long chinlocks were there to kill time somewhat but they were also used to assure the crowd that Angle was indeed the heel and to make sure the crowd rallies behind Benoit in perhaps the most famous heat spot perhaps beside the hot tag that the WWE uses. Before Angle and Benoit go into the last 7 or 8 min of the match Benoit does a quick face comback where he hits a backbodydrop.

 

Basically every move in this match had good physcology behind it from what I remember. The match starts off slow somewhat(which is also good for letting the second half be more climatic) and has some smart work with the build to the sharpshooter. Benoit goes for it 3 times I believe until he locks it in. All Japan like, this is always a good formula to keep a match interesting and to secure a pop later on in the match when it's finally procured. Benoit did a real good smart segment just rescently against Kane using the same tactic as well. Anyway he gets it for a short bit so he can test the suspect leg that Angle might still have but as seen on the Smackdown before the Rumble and after the sharpshooter itself Angle's knee is fine. So Benoit decides to change strageties and go with his top submission move which is of course the crossface. This is about the time that the match picks up into a frenzy. Now the key here is and I think a good amount of people have overlooked this is that the match's physcology is a game of oneupmanship and desperation. Looking at it from that perspective Benoit and Angle do a fantastic job of creating that atmosphere. They exchange their germans, rollups, Angleslams and submissions until we finally have a winner. That is the theme there which the 360 german suplex and one of Angle's frantic countering of the crossface into the anklelock so clearly illustrated. Now we're going to have some people sookying here about the selling of a)the Angle pop up belly to belly suplex and b)the german reversals. Two common complaints about the match. A is not as bad as people make it out to be because of the time Benoit took to go to the top rope and the fact the match had still a ways to go so it was certainly plausable. B wasn't bad either because the first time they do it it's not deep into the match and the second time they do it there's only one suplex hit before the opponent reversed it himself. B also fits into the match physcology extreamly well. Also, one has to remember that wether you agree with it or not Benoit and Angle have clearly told us before multiple times that can do the german sulex reversal spot. Just like how we're told a frontface lock can be so easily broken or an Irish whip can so easily be done even though we know that's not true in real life we let it ride. The same thing can appyly here.

 

THere was also great psychology with the diving headbutts of the top rope which was done extreamly well and just may be the highlight of the match. It's not until the 3rd time Benoit hits the headbutt of the top rope. Similar to the sharpshooter spots earlier on by the time Benoit hits the headbutt the fans are screaming out of their seats in delight. Benoit does this so perfectly too as it fits in with his interview on Smackdown before the Rumble talking about how much the title means to him. The staggering to the ropes is absolutely fantastic and the long distance headbutt could not possably have been hit at a better time. Arguably the longest distance Benoit ever got this exemplified how bad Benoit wanted this title. A shorter headbutt here just wouldn't have worked as well as Benoit was clearly just not talking the talk. He was walking the walk. Smart.

 

There was also nice psychology here with the playing off of previous bouts. The awesome oneupmanship/desperation spot where Benoit starts off with the crossface only for Angle to finish off with an Angleslam is a spot played off of the Benoit vs Angle vs Rey triple threat match. (what's also cool is that the spot taken off of the triple threat played off of the previous Benoit ANgle PPV match!) The hanging on to the ankle bit where Angle kept a tight grip on his ankle lock is smart and added to the match by adding fear on the fans' faces by making them truly ponder wether Benoit was going to submit or not by continually adding more and more damage to Benoit's ankle. This leads to the beautiful ending where Angle finally oneupped Benoit at the end by bringing out the completely new laying anklelock of death because there was no other way Angle was going to win. Brought out at exactly the right time this set the seeds up perfectly for a rematch which is why we never saw anyone ever break this hold. A very dramatic ending that worked only because of the psychology that was implemented in this bout. To say there was no psychology in this bout is truly unfair. If there wasn't this match would be talked about a lot less than it actually is.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

*Applause*