Benoit Must Be Stopped

[bob_barron 0]

He beat him in the Elimination Chamber. (11/02)

 

He beat him in a tag match 2 weeks before the title match (to set up that program)(12/03)

 

Essentially he beat him in the long Raw match.

 

It's established he can beat Triple H.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

You said in the past year- that was a year and a half ago.

 

He didn't beat him- He had his shoulders pinned to the mat.

 

It seems to be established that HBK can't win the big one and HHH seems to be adept at kicking his ass.

[Guest krazykat72]

You're arguments would mean something if they portrayed it that way, They haven't. not one time has it been mentioned that 'HBK couldn;t get it done'. It was portrayed that he was screwed at the RAW match and the Rumble match was portrayed as a totally even fought draw. Hell, they're also glossing over the fact that he lost at Bad Blood. The triple threats were focused squarely on Benoit, not Shawn being unable to win the title. Don't try to affix some sort of "HBK' is a choke artist label when it doesn't exist. He will never be portrayed that way and like I said earlier, no one sees him that way (outside of some posters on this board apparently)

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

What's your point? They tried to sell the HIAC match at the PPV as the greatest ever and their feud as the greatest ever despite the live crowd shitting all over the match and most people not giving a damn about this feud past the Rumble.

 

Someone who consistently loses his big matches becomes a choker in the fans eyes no matter how the announcers sell him.

[bob_barron 0]

I think the fans will soon start to turn on him or at least lose faith on him.

 

I don't know why anyone should root for him since he always seems to blow it. When you get 5 shots at the World title in the span of about 5 months and blow them all- you're a choke artist.

[Kaertos 0]

I was at the show in Dayton last night and the crowd was pretty good. But to say Benoit wasn't over with the live crowd is poppycock. I know the cheers sound loads different on TV than live, but I looked around the arena at howmany people were raising their hands and cheering when Benoit came out.

 

The man was over. No two ways about it. Everything he did in the match was cheered and the only reason the crowd got quiet off and on was that we were suprised at the length of the match. We kept waiting for the srewy rush-job ending. The fact that Nutter Center has huge frickin' clocks all over the arena didn't help.

 

All the guys in the main event got good pops.

[Guest krazykat72]

Barron,

 

As someone who's actually read your work for awhile, I expected you to actually look at the bigger picture. The results of Shawn's matches are not the important part, and you know it. He's been portrayed as the equal to Triple H. The fact that you're pointing to sequences in the Mania match is laughable. The fact that you're also trying to convey that people actually see Shawn as a choke artist is laughable too. They see him as a "The Legend, former World Champion" Shawn Michaels, who is constantly booked on top. I was referring to Survivor Series with Jericho, where he also came from insurmountable odds, elminating 2 men and having the third beat before outside interference cost him the match. Are you serious about the Rumble? I watched that match 2 days ago. What showing off? He missed a move, bled a gusher and ended up withstanding the pedigree and coming back. And then, he didn't even lose, it was a draw. As for the RAW match, he won the match and the pinfall was to set up 'evil Bischoff' stealing it away and having Austin return, not to show Shawn was lazy. You act as if he was booked like Benoit where it was harped on that 'he can't win the big one.' Shawn wins almost all the time, Triple H sells for him more than anyone, and he beats him sometimes too. Hell, in their whole series, Shawn won SummerSlam '02, the Elimination Chamber and lost Armageddon '02 and Bad Blood '04. Everthing else was a draw and for the most part had Michaels looking incredibly strong.

"Triple H is adept at kicking his ass"

Please, that whole feud has been booked evenly, and even with Triple H winning the blowoff, Michaels is still portrayed as his equal. The crowd buys him as such and arguing otherwise is really nitpicking.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest krazykat72]

Actually, the crowd always gets behind Rock and Foley whenever they come back despite the fact I can't remember the last time Foley won a match and that Rock puts everyone over. By your logic, they are choke artists too. I don;t believe that and Michaels has been pushed in a way that people will never see him as such.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Goodear]

Not to mention Shawn already has world title reigns, Wrestlemania main events, and Royal Rumble victories which helps insulate him a great deal more than say a Chris Benoit who never climbed that moutain until this last year and had multipule chances to do so. The danger is having Michaels getting the 'washed up' label from the crowd and I don't think that will happen as long as Flair is sucking up every iota of that feeling.

[Guest croweater]

Barron,

 

As someone who's actually read your work for awhile, I expected you to actually look at the bigger picture. The results of Shawn's matches are not the important part, and you know it. He's been portrayed as the equal to Triple H. The fact that you're pointing to sequences in the Mania match is laughable. The fact that you're also trying to convey that people actually see Shawn as a choke artist is laughable too. They see him as a "The Legend, former World Champion" Shawn Michaels, who is constantly booked on top. I was referring to Survivor Series with Jericho, where he also came from insurmountable odds, elminating 2 men and having the third beat before outside interference cost him the match. Are you serious about the Rumble? I watched that match 2 days ago. What showing off? He missed a move, bled a gusher and ended up withstanding the pedigree and coming back. And then, he didn't even lose, it was a draw. As for the RAW match, he won the match and the pinfall was to set up 'evil Bischoff' stealing it away and having Austin return, not to show Shawn was lazy. You act as if he was booked like Benoit where it was harped on that 'he can't win the big one.' Shawn wins almost all the time, Triple H sells for him more than anyone, and he beats him sometimes too. Hell, in their whole series, Shawn won SummerSlam '02, the Elimination Chamber and lost Armageddon '02 and Bad Blood '04. Everthing else was a draw and for the most part had Michaels looking incredibly strong.

"Triple H is adept at kicking his ass"

Please, that whole feud has been booked evenly, and even with Triple H winning the blowoff, Michaels is still portrayed as his equal. The crowd buys him as such and arguing otherwise is really nitpicking.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

But hasn't Benoit been protrayed as better than both Michaels and HHH because he holds convincing PPV wins over BOTH of them.

 

He's beaten them both twice in main events on PPV.

 

I think Benoit's reign has been fine. So what if he misses the main on 1 PPV. From what I heard it was still the match of the night.

[Guest Brian]

He's won triple threat matches, which are not as dominating of performances as beating someone one-on-one. He hasn't beaten either of them conclusively, and they've played up on that.

[bob_barron 0]

About the choke thing-

 

I don't think Shawn should be the champ right now- he's had so many opportunities to win the title that I think he should be kept out of the World title picture for a while.

 

If they run Benoit v. HHH at Summerslam and have Benoit go over clean- it will help his credibility so much

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Kahran,

 

You may actually want to check Shawn's house show numbers as champ and compare them to Benoit's. It would be interesting to check the ratings too, because they are higher now, but are dropping as opposed to back then when Nitro was exploding. I'm sure you could find a thread ot two over at wrestlingclassics.com and then you can compare them to the recent numbers Dave does in the Observer every month. I also have a feeling Vengeance will do a lower buyrate than almost any IYH that Shawn main evented as champ (Int'l Incident excluded). This is not all Benoit's fault, but as much as I'm a fan, he's never going to be a great draw. As for HBK being a 'choke artist', please. I seriously doubt anyone actually sees it that way. He's beated Triple H, Benoit, Orton, Batista, Jericho, Flair, etc. multiple times in the last year. He's also a 4 time former champion and the company has hyped his legend like Foley's in that it doesn't matter if he wins or loses. He's portrayed as a threat and a legend and the crowd feels he can beat anyone. The argument that he's lost so amny high profile matches argument is ridiculous. Let;s review:

RAW 12/29/03- apparently wins, screwed out of title by evil manager

Rumble '04- Draw (not a loss), he's portrayed as a valiant wrestler, stays strong for subsequent matches

RAW 2/04- defeats Benoit (with Triple H's distraction)

Wrestlemania Triple Threat- is not involved in the decision, that is more remembered for Benoit making Triple H tap

Backlash- submits to Benoit (after being attacked with chair by Triple H)

RAW 5/04- loses to Benoit after screwjob interference, and apparently having the match won.

Bad Blood 6/04- loses to Triple H after 3 pedigrees and 47 minutes. Is constantly put over the next night for his toughness and the brutality of the match. The crowd was still waaaaay into him when he came out last night and will be whenever he returns.

He's hardly been portrayed as a choke artist and quite frankly, it's stupid to label him as such.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

Oh great. Another one of you. I suggest you go check out that thread by chaosrage in Old School where he and I go back forth forever with me backing up with buyrates and ratings (Shawn killed the ratings after Bret Hart's brief revival in the Winter, his D-Generation X & Armageddon 2002 PPVs built completely around him failed miserably, the RAW ratings post-Attitude reached their lowest point in his 2002 title reign), while he made claims like Shawn drew better than Austin. Look, I understand that you like Shawn, but he is not a draw. Hey, there are guys I like that aren't draws either. Eddy Guerrero is rapidly heading into that territory, although given the state of Smackdown there isn't much option.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Benoit just hasn't gotten the focus and attention that the World Champ should get. It's not that Benoit's mic skills are so horrible, it's just that he doesn't get the time to show it. It's going to be real hard for Benoit to have any memorable feuds as World Champion because good promos are apart of getting it over.

 

 

And, not to point out the obvious, but HHH is the star on Raw. If Raw is a TV show, than HHH is the MAIN CHARACTER. The show is built around his character, and it's been built up like that for over a year and a half. You guys should be used to it now, hell you might as well accept it. Sure some of us hate the guy, but he gets a pretty big pop every time, and his promos usually drive the main event storylines. Not saying we have to like it, but HHH with his family connections and what not, is in a posistion where the show runs through him. It's hard to build the show around a face unless they have a huge amount of charisma, but HHH is the biggest heel the WWE has. I can't even hate the guy anymore. It's so common to see a HHH promo, why protest it?

 

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't shawn a pretty good draw in 95 and early-mid 96? I figured his drawing power went down after he had the World Title for a long time.

[Guest krazykat72]

You have no place as a moderator if you use words like "another one of you" in regards to a post that did not attack you personally. I resent that implication. If you actually looked in that thread I did post in it and mentioned Shawn wasn't in the same league as Austin, not even the sama galaxy, but perhaps that was too much trouble for you.

 

Armageddon 2002: Buyrate .50 or .68(this may be a case of info trickling in a few months afterwards. (12/01 headlined by the 4 man tournament for the title was a .78) 2003's was a .40

Survivor Series 2002: Buyrate .86, also, the biggest gate at that time for MSG (until 'Mania '04) 11/01- 1.13 (end of Alliance/WWF feud) Survivor '03- .73

 

Something tells me that the feud that totally tanked did a little better in hindsight than it's getting credit for. The low Armageddon buyrate is not great, but Survivor Series did good business. Also, Bret's still got that .33 in the 12/95, .35 in 12/96 both of which are lower than the .40 D-X PPV number in '97. Though, Bret's place as headlinging the two lowest drawing WWF PPV's should come to an end after the Great American Bash.

I know Shawn isn't a strong draw, but since he's come back, it's not as if he's been a detriment, if anything he's *slightly* helped numbers.

I'm sorry if that seemed harsh at the beginning of the post, but don't think it's ok for you to just slam and dismiss someone right off the bat.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

edited to correct buyrate mistake

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Ummm...... your buyrates are bullshit. Armageddon 02 did between a .40 and a .50.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I'm sorry then. It is just that we get A LOT of Shawn Michaels fans that seem to think that he was one of the greatest draws ever, on par with Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin and ignore everything to the contrary. Only Goldberg or Kevin Nash fans tend to be more annoying. At least you seem to use some common sense, but I do question your Armageddon buyrate. Most sites have it at about .40. I don't have time to look now though. Survivor Series 1996 is the other PPV that had its buyrate abnormally high and falsely reported too.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

02 Arm got a .50 buyrate.

[chaosrage 0]

Oh great.  Another one of you. 

 

I suggest you go check out that thread by chaosrage in Old School where he and I go back forth forever with me backing up with buyrates and ratings (Shawn killed the ratings after Bret Hart's brief revival in the Winter

 

Once again, Bret brought the company down to all time ratings and buyrate lows, and you could make a good argument that Shawn brought them back up. And then they kept going up, even when Bret left, until around the same time the NWO showed up on Nitro.

 

his D-Generation X & Armageddon 2002 PPVs built completely around him failed miserably

 

Degeneration X against Shamrock.... Wow, I wonder why people didn't buy that!

 

while he made claims like Shawn drew better than Austin.

 

Didn't I already make a fool out of you the last time you said this by showing you quotes where I said the exact opposite? Anyway, what I actually said was something like if you blame the buyrates in 96 on him, then you have to also give him credit for the good buyrates. Now, both would be stupid to do of course, because a lot of other things affect the buyrate beyond just who has the belt.

 

Hey, there are guys I like that aren't draws either. Eddy Guerrero is rapidly heading into that territory, although given the state of Smackdown there isn't much option.

 

Is Eddy to blame for Smackdown sucking? If not, how can you say he isn't a draw?

[cawthon777 0]

his D-Generation X & Armageddon 2002 PPVs built completely around him failed miserably

 

Degeneration X against Shamrock.... Wow, I wonder why people didn't buy that!

Flashback to 1997: Shamrock was built huge, made both Bret and HBK tap in unofficial meetings, and the fans loved him.

 

I don't think you can blame any one person for IYH DX sucking. Just blame a lot of people for the rushed promotion of lame match ups ... and throw some Montreal backlash in there too.

[Guest krazykat72]

If I was inaccurate on the buyrate, i apologize I was referencing http://www.shootingstarpress.com/features/buyrates/wwf.html

which had that number.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[chaosrage 0]

Prowrestlinghistory.com gave it a .68. Weird. Every site has different numbers.

[chaosrage 0]

Flashback to 1997: Shamrock was built huge, made both Bret and HBK tap in unofficial meetings, and the fans loved him.

Still, it's Shamrock. People love Eugene. But I wouldn't expect Eugene vs Benoit to sell a lot of PPVs.

 

I don't think you can blame any one person for IYH DX sucking. Just blame a lot of people for the rushed promotion of lame match ups ... and throw some Montreal backlash in there too.

 

Yep, one of the worst shows ever. Amazing how people try to use it as proof that Shawn was a horrible draw.

[cawthon777 0]

Flashback to 1997: Shamrock was built huge, made both Bret and HBK tap in unofficial meetings, and the fans loved him.

Still, it's Shamrock. People love Eugene. But I wouldn't expect Eugene vs Benoit to sell a lot of PPVs.

I wouldn't quite compare Eugene to Shamrock in that respect. Shamrock was presented as a credible contender and title holder.

[Guest Coffey]

I don't even know what I could say in this thread that wouldn't be argued, so I don't think I'll bother. I'll just say that Benoit as World Champion isn't a bad thing, but it's not a good thing either. Last nights Raw will be the last WWE show that I watch for a long time, and it's not Benoit's fault that I'm leaving...it's the bookers. Nothing makes any sense and I'm really tired of watching BS High School Soap Opera drama unfold on weekly wrestling shows.

 

I'm still a wrestling fan, but I've written WWE pretty much out of the equation.

[Kaertos 0]

I'm curious about something Coffey... and I mean this in all seriousness...

 

What was it about last night's show that turned you off? All right, outside the Lita Pregnancy thing which could, maybe, someday, be good but I have a bad feeling about. Personally, I was very happy with the show overall. Good segment with HHH, HBK & Kane at the open, Good Highlight Reel, awesome main event... I just find it odd that after a couple of weeks ago (not to mention Smackdown recently, which has been sub-par more often than not) this is the show that made you say "The hell with it."

[Hektik 0]

Once again, Bret brought the company down to all time ratings and buyrate lows, and you could make a good argument that Shawn brought them back up.  And then they kept going up, even when Bret left, until around the same time the NWO showed up on Nitro.

In retrospect both Bret and Shawn were not draws. If you look closer Bret drew more than Shawn because he was champion longer. You can't really compare their title reigns. All the Bret/Shawn debate really comes down to is which one like more. I like Bret more because I can't stand Shawn. It makes me angry to know that son of bitch is still involved in wrestling as the top babyface in 2004. Even worse is the years of WWE propaganda claiming he is legend. Dosen't it seem like they give legend status to anyone who has been wrestling for over ten years. With Shawn it's worse because they were trying to do it when he was still wrestling in 1997.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Pregancy angles never work in wrestling. They always turn out horribly.

[Guest Loss]

Bret did not take them all time lows, Diesel did. Putting the belt on Bret boosted business immediately, but Shawn received credit for it, although he wasn't even back on house shows until two months later. Shawn was totally unable to compete against Hogan and the NWO, or even the Flair/Savage feud that preceded the NWO, in house shows or television ratings. Bret was champion during Hogan's first title run in WCW and the WWF was still doing better business.

[cawthon777 0]

Pregancy angles never work in wrestling. They always turn out horribly.

Case in point - Terri, Mae Young, etc.

 

You know they're not going to give birth so the only option is to have someone injure them to terminate the pregnancy.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

If only I...or someone else with a brain here had mod powers.

 

What the fuck does Shawn Michaels have to do with a Chris Benoit thread? I say this thread should be closed because it's gotten completely off topic, that Benoit isn't even the focus of it.

 

And Michaels sucks, won't put anyone over, and ego-stroked his way into having the most boring hour match in history at Bad Blood while every other match was cut short.