Benoit Must Be Stopped

[Guest Goodear]

Is this one of those WHOOSH deals since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I think my anti-HBK-ness has been well documented, but, no, I'm not sarcastic.

 

The only person he's put over has been HHH, and that's pretty much putting over no one. He stroked his way into the WM XX main evemt, even though he said WM Main Events should be 1 on 1 back in the day, and then put on a horrible hour lnog match with HHH on sunday.

[Guest Goodear]

I was actually going for the...

 

1) ARGH Them dumb mods should shut this thread since it is about Shawn Michaels now!

 

2) I hate Shawn Michaels sooooo much, here's why.

 

I thought you were going for irony. My bad.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Well it is off topic of Benoit, but the battle of the delussional HBK marks vs. the HBK haters is entertaining.

[Guest Goodear]

Thus why the thread remains open. Enjoy the anarchy!

[chaosrage 0]

Bret did not take them all time lows, Diesel did.

Diesel wasn't the one who got the two lowest buyrates ever.

 

Putting the belt on Bret boosted business immediately, but Shawn received credit for it, although he wasn't even back on house shows until two months later.

 

Right, in fact he boosted business so much that Diesel's IYH (vs the Bulldog) in october fell from a .4 to a .3 with Bret (vs Bulldog) in December and the ratings stayed the same until January, where they went up to the high 2s and low 3's. Oh, and for some reason, they were still mysteriously getting 3s in April and May without Bret around.

 

Shawn was totally unable to compete against Hogan and the NWO, or even the Flair/Savage feud that preceded the NWO, in house shows or television ratings.

 

The ratings went back and forth for both of them until the NWO. So if Shawn couldn't compete with Flair/Savage, then neither could Bret. Also Bret didn't seem to be able to compete with Hogan and the NWO too much in 1997.

[chaosrage 0]

If only I...or someone else with a brain here had mod powers.

 

What the fuck does Shawn Michaels have to do with a Chris Benoit thread? I say this thread should be closed because it's gotten completely off topic, that Benoit isn't even the focus of it.

Don't ask me. I just responded to the post with my name in it.

[Guest Coffey]

I'm curious about something Coffey... and I mean this in all seriousness...

 

What was it about last night's show that turned you off?  All right, outside the Lita Pregnancy thing which could, maybe, someday, be good but I have a bad feeling about.  Personally, I was very happy with the show overall.  Good segment with HHH, HBK & Kane at the open, Good Highlight Reel, awesome main event... I just find it odd that after a couple of weeks ago (not to mention Smackdown recently, which has been sub-par more often than not) this is the show that made you say "The hell with it."

Well, part of the reason is because everything for me this week was amplified because I was watching the show with a couple of friends. So, when something bad happened, it didn't just happen and I could think "whatever." It happened and then WWE replayed it, and then I had to listen to my two friends bash it for five more minutes. It was terrible!

 

It was a combination of things. Yeah, I know WWE isn't really known for having a lot of actual wrestling during their shows. Especially the ones on free TV. I'm aware of that. The problem is, I'm a wrestling fan. I don't want to watch the soap opera stuff anymore...especially when it's fallen below "B" level now.

 

Last night was just the straw that broke the camels back for me. Truth be told, the last few Raw shows I have really enjoyed. I don't get UPN locally, so Smackdown doesn't fit into my equation. The problem is I'd at least like to see a decent match. The main event? Ya'll, I give you that. It was a decent match considering it went twenty-five minutes or so past the ten o'clock hour. The problem was by the time the match started, the will to watch was already sucked out of me. I had to watch the intro with HBK getting injured. It dragged on for about half an hour. Then I got a Flag Match which was anything but. The focus of the match (which lasted what, three minutes?) was when Sylvan tried to sing the Canadian National Anthem and the crowd fucking boo'ed him. Now, I'm not Canadian, but the lack of respect still pissed me off. Of course, the crowd was supposed to boo them since they aren't American, but whatever. So much for equality, no?

 

Then we had the mixed tag match...complete with sloppy womens wrestling and some Tyson Tomko fuck-ups. That didn't help matters. We had Lita telling Stacy that she was preggers backstage. That certainly didn't help. We got a recap of the PPV last night...which was bad enough the first time. Oh shit, can't forget the womens tag team match because obviously Stacy & Nidia have so much wrestling experience! When Gail Kim is the second best wrestlers out of the four involved in the match, something is drastically wrong. We also had the Highlight Reel segment that last probably around twenty minutes. BAH!

 

With Impact showing on Fox Sports Net on Fridays now, I've finally just decided to walk away from WWE. They just provide nothing for me anymore.

 

Truthfully, it's more the cause of the internet than WWE. If I was still a "mark" I'm sure I'd, personally, still love WWE. Instead, I'm a victim of believing conspiracy theories and reading and bookers doing this, road agents scalding that, etc. instead of just watchintg what's on the television and being entertained by it.

 

If you liked the show last night, that's great. I won't knock you or anyone else for it. Different people like different things. WWE, currently, can't seem to provide me with what I'm looking for in the wrestling department. They truly are "sports entertainment" now, and I just realised how drastically different sports entertainment is from wrestling.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I'm curious about something Coffey... and I mean this in all seriousness...

 

What was it about last night's show that turned you off? All right, outside the Lita Pregnancy thing which could, maybe, someday, be good but I have a bad feeling about. Personally, I was very happy with the show overall. Good segment with HHH, HBK & Kane at the open, Good Highlight Reel, awesome main event... I just find it odd that after a couple of weeks ago (not to mention Smackdown recently, which has been sub-par more often than not) this is the show that made you say "The hell with it."

"Good segement" = Pointless time wasting and J.R jerking himself off vicariously through Michaels injury. The worst was when J.R said that he "didn't think that Kane was capable of things like this." HE SET YOU ON FIRE.

 

"Good Highlight Reel"= If HHH hadn't shown up then you'd have been right. What we got was a long-winded promo from HHH in one of many appearances he made last night.

 

"Awesome main event" = Repetitive as shit. Chops chops chops. Backdrop. More chops. More backdrops. German suplex. Chops. Whatever the fuck ever.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Once again, Bret brought the company down to all time ratings and buyrate lows, and you could make a good argument that Shawn brought them back up.  And then they kept going up, even when Bret left, until around the same time the NWO showed up on Nitro.

In retrospect both Bret and Shawn were not draws. If you look closer Bret drew more than Shawn because he was champion longer. You can't really compare their title reigns. All the Bret/Shawn debate really comes down to is which one like more. I like Bret more because I can't stand Shawn. It makes me angry to know that son of bitch is still involved in wrestling as the top babyface in 2004. Even worse is the years of WWE propaganda claiming he is legend. Dosen't it seem like they give legend status to anyone who has been wrestling for over ten years. With Shawn it's worse because they were trying to do it when he was still wrestling in 1997.

In the WWF/WWE world, Shawn Micheals IS a legend. It's not just that he's been around for over10 years, he was just a huge part of the WWF midcard for a lot of years and than he was a huge part of the main event scene for a good 2-3 years in his prime. He won the title a couple of times, has had classic matches, and now in the last year he's back to being a big time main event guy. You can't really deny that Shawn isn't as much of a WWF legend as Bret Hart is.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Shawn Michaels is a legend, probably equal to Bret Hart, but certainly not like Flair or Hogan. That doesn't mean he should be the top guy anymore. Flair or Hogan shouldn't be pushed either. Michaels obviously has more left in the tank than them, but the fact is that people just aren't responding to him the way that WWE would like them to be. Certainly not as much as Eddy Guerrero or Chris Benoit or even Eugene or John Cena or RVD.

[Hektik 0]

In the WWF/WWE world,  Shawn Micheals IS a legend.    It's not just that he's been around for over10 years,  he was just a huge part of the WWF midcard for a lot of years and than he was a huge part of the main event scene for a good 2-3 years in his prime.  He won the title a couple of times,  has had classic matches,  and now in the last year he's back to being a big time main event guy.  You can't really deny that Shawn isn't as much of a WWF legend as Bret Hart is.

Part of the point I'm trying to make is that legend is the most whored out term in the WWE. A legendary figure is someone who has reached a mythical level. The only person from the WWE that can really claim that is Andre the Giant. There are a lot of unbelievable stories about him that people tell but no one is really sure if they are completly true. Look at sports, there have been great players who have come out but they are not legends. Nobody calls Michael Jordan a legend.

[chaosrage 0]

Dosen't it seem like they give legend status to anyone who has been wrestling for over ten years. 

Orton's only been there a year and he's ALREADY a legend.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

^ in his own mind.

[CanadianChick 0]

If only I...or someone else with a brain here had mod powers.

 

What the fuck does Shawn Michaels have to do with a Chris Benoit thread? I say this thread should be closed because it's gotten completely off topic, that Benoit isn't even the focus of it.

 

And Michaels sucks, won't put anyone over, and ego-stroked his way into having the most boring hour match in history at Bad Blood while every other match was cut short.

It's relevent because someone said that Micheal's is a better choice than Benoit. It was retorted by bringing up Shawn's less-than-successful title reigns. So it stays open, as Goodear said.

 

And if you think it's so off topic, don't be hypocritical and talk about Micheals in the exact same post where you complained Micheals was being discussed.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em was what I was going with.

 

But when the dicussion becomes "who was a better draw, HBK or Bret Hart", where exactly does that discuss Benoit's reign right now?

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Shawn should not hold the top spot but to say that he should not be in the company is wrong. Shawn is still one of the top wrestlers on RAW only behind Benoit and maybe Jericho. He does need to put more young stars over in a more decisive manner and can still be a valuable asset to the company in a limited capacity.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I won't bother to start a thread about this, but it's simply speculation:

 

Does anyone think Kane has a shot in hell of having HBK put him over if they DO feud?

 

 

 

Now, I'll try and get back onto Benoit. To say he gets horrible reactions is just false. Everyone should know live crowd responses are MUCH louder than they come off as on TV.

 

You can't judge buyrates because A.) WM is WM. and b.) Backlash was built up as WM Jr. but did a decent buyrate compared to the SD ones this year.

 

Bad blood bombing (if so that is) will be on HHH/HBK's heads because that was built up as the main event, and went on longer than almost every other match combined.

 

His in ring performances have been great as usual, and has been having very good matches on a weekly basis. I'm not saying GREAT, but he does the best he can with 5:00 matches against mid-carders.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Really I don't care if Shawn puts Kane over or not because Kane has been a joke since taking off the mask. Plus super Shane killed Kane a long time ago.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Also I don't see a problem with Benoit because right now there is no draw you can put the belt on unless the Rock comes back full time. Benoit is a good wrestler and at least it's not HHH holding the belt.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Does anyone think Kane has a shot in hell of having HBK put him over if they DO feud?

 

Not a chance. HBK still has yet to put over anybody cleanly since coming back from his back injury.

[cawthon777 0]

Does anyone think Kane has a shot in hell of having HBK put him over if they DO feud?

Yes.

 

Let's visit fantasy land, shall we?

 

Kane kills HBK at Summer Slam. On the same card, Benoit narrowly avoids defeat and beats Triple H. Triple H goes off to Hollywood for a bit.

 

What are we left with? Benoit / Kane II. They wouldn't need to do much in terms of buildup other than play off the fact that Bad Blood was such a close call and Benoit couldn't get Kane to tap to the Crossface.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Reality Check time, folks.

 

Benoit has the least heat of the three faces in the Main Event. Hell, Benoit gets less face heat then two of the TOP HEELS. When he was tagged in, TWICE we got dead silence. Any time we got a segment with Flair and Benoit, Flair got more reaction then benoit. And that Sharpshooter at the end was worse then The Rock's. He's a boring Champion, his character (what little there is) is so insufferably dull that for the first time in a LONG time, they're just ignoring the World Champ week-in and week out.

 

It's not just a Clique thing, either. When Goldberg was Champ he was the center of the program, and he did fairly well with the role. Benoit cannot, and the show is just falling part with him coming out and winning the tag match of the week. I'd much rather see a guy like Randy Orton carrying the show:

 

- He's more over than Benoit. (And that's face OR heel heat)

 

- He's more charismatic than Benoit.

 

- In 18 years in the business, Benoit has still yet to develop a character as well as Randy has in 2.

 

- Going over Benoit around the horn would do nothing but improve Orton.

 

I eagerly await the end of this joke of a reign.

Whatever. You obviously write your posts in such a way that it's obvious you do it for reaction and nothing else.

Amen

Because any time ANYONE has a different opinion, it's to troll.

 

You guys are fucking idiots, and it's no wonder this folder has been a joke for two years.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

You're not a troll, you're just wrong. Terribly wrong. 'The world is flat' wrong.

[iggymcfly 0]

Not a chance. HBK still has yet to put anybody over cleanly since coming back from his back injury.

 

Faces don't put heels over cleanly in the WWE. It just doesn't happen. There's a reason that there is only one credible main event heel right now between the two shows. It takes a very rare case for a heel to semi-regularly win matches without cheating. Angle and Brock are the only two heels that I can think of in the last three years that could get clean wins.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

^ I know, but if he could do it just for one time, it wouldn't be asking much. If anything, my biggest gripe was when he didn't put Orton over clean at Unforgiven. Jericho at WM was just wishful thinking once it became clear Michaels changed his mind about retiring then.

[iggymcfly 0]

It certainly would be nice if the faces put over the heels a little more, but it's certainly not HBK that's the problem. Shit, look at HHH who's the most dominant heel on either show. Before finally getting a clean win against HBK, he didn't have a clean win on PPV since the HIAC a year ago against Kevin Nash. The whole mentality that being a face means being consistently far and above your opponents talentwise is one of the monst annoying points of the WWE mentality.

 

At least back in the day, you'd have a super-Rock or a super-Austin and the rest of the roster would be mortal, but nopw it just trickles straight down. La Res has to cheat to beat Hurricane and Rosey. Chavo has to cheat to beat Spike. Friggin' Eugene can't even job clean to Kane. The whole thing is madness.

[Guest krazykat72]

Not to nitpick, but Michaels put over Jericho cleanly, or as cleanly as you'll get on RAW. Before anyone trots out the Orton/Flair interference, they didn't lead directly to finish, which was the extremely rare Michaels submission and I sure didn't hear this massive griping when a very similar thing happened in the Lesnar/Guerrero match (Goldberg & Title Belt scenarios).

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Yeah, after he beat Jericho at the biggest show of them all and made Jericho look like a choker.

[Guest Askewniverse]

If anything, my biggest gripe was when he didn't put Orton over clean at Unforgiven.  Jericho at WM was just wishful thinking once it became clear Michaels changed his mind about retiring then.

Did Michaels actually refuse to put over Orton cleanly at Unforgiven or is this just speculation? I don't remember hearing one way or another.

 

HBK (or any other wrestler for that matter) shouldn't really be blamed for not putting someone else over unless he was asked to do so and refused. People shouldn't be so quick to blame the wrestlers. They might simply be following the booking/writing.