Best North American Match Tournament

[Guest wildpegasus]

Its all pretty much the top 8 except for one GIANT upset with #42 Bret/Bulldog. Brackets is what the score was in last round matchups.

 

 

 

1)Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

5)Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

3)Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

42)Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

7)HHH vs HBK vs Benoit-WM 20 (23-8)

2)Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

My picks are these:

 

 

 

1st pick -- Angle vs Benoit Rumble 03

 

 

 

2nd pairing -- Bret vs Austin WM 13

 

This is the hardest pick of the bunch. I so wanted to pick Bret vs Owen here.

 

 

3rd Pick

 

 

Bret vs Bulldog Summerslam 92

 

 

4th Pick

 

Bret vs Austin from Survivor Series even though I haven't watched it since 97. I wish I could rewatch it for this thread.

[tekcop 0]

3rd Pick

 

Bret vs Bulldog Summerslam 92

I have lost all respect for you, pegasus.

[Guest wildpegasus]

3rd Pick

 

Bret vs Bulldog Summerslam 92

I have lost all respect for you, pegasus.

 

It is impossable not to respect me when when I have an Astroboy signature.

 

 

My love for Bret vs Bulldog from Summerslam and IYH knows no bounds. I'm also tougher on Eddie vs Rey than most even though I still like it a lot.

 

Quick reason here is that Bret vs Bulldog is such a beautiful match and Eddie vs Rey features some (edit) selling/moveset to me where the match doesn't come off as the struggle it should've with the damage that was taken in it. Bret vs Bulldog comes off more as a struggle to the end for me than Eddie vs Rey.

[tekcop 0]

3rd Pick

 

Bret vs Bulldog Summerslam 92

I have lost all respect for you, pegasus.

 

It is impossable not to respect me when when I have an Astroboy signature.

 

 

My love for Bret vs Bulldog from Summerslam and IYH knows no bounds. I'm also tougher on Eddie vs Rey than most even though I still like it a lot.

 

Quick reason here is that Bret vs Bulldog is such a beautiful match and Eddie vs Rey features some selling to me where the match doesn't come off as the struggle it should've with the damage that was taken in it. Bret vs Bulldog comes off more as a struggle to the end for me than Eddie vs Rey.

Damn, I didn't realize.... for the Astroboy signature, I will grant you my respect.

 

As for what you said about the matches, I can't really argue with you as I haven't seen Bret/Bulldog in a long while, but I do remember not loving it, but definatley liking it. And well, I put Rey/Eddie as my #4 North American match of all time and stuff. Yeah, it has a specific number. I know that's scary.

[Dark Age 0]

I'm dissapointed with the love of Angle/Benoit over Rock/Austin. It sickens me.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm dissapointed with the love of Angle/Benoit over Rock/Austin. It sickens me.

Benoit vs Angle > Rock vs Austin so it doesn't sicken me.

[Guest Ray]

I'm dissapointed with the love of Angle/Benoit over Rock/Austin. It sickens me.

What's so wrong with Angle/Benoit that it would sicken you to see it rated over Austin/Rock?

 

Benoit vs Angle > Rock vs Austin

I disagree.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Ah, good. It's been weeded down to matches that I've seen.

 

1)Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

5)Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

3)Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

42)Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

7)HHH vs HBK vs Benoit-WM 20 (23-8)

2)Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

[Jingus 0]

1)Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

As much as I think Angle is unfairly buried by some of the smarks out there, him and Benoit trading off beautiful but meaningless matwork doesn't equal up to the brilliant storytelling that Austin and Rock did in their match.

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

5)Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

Let's face it: the I Quit match hasn't aged as well as a lot of Bret and Austin's other work, plus I've always hated the "passed out from the pain" finish. The brother vs. brother classic, on the other hand, was easily MOTN of that Wrestlemania... even with the ladder match on the same card.

 

3)Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

42)Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

This was a really tough pick for me. I loved the Bret/Davey match. But in the final analysis, Bret was physically carrying Bulldog through much of it, while Rey and Eddie both sprinted and bumped through HH97 like it was their last night on earth.

 

7)HHH vs HBK vs Benoit-WM 20 (23-8)

2)Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

 

A match that wasn't even as fun as its own rematch a month later vs. The Greatest Match Of Austin's Career. KICK WHAM STUNNER.

[Guest wildpegasus]

1)Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

As much as I think Angle is unfairly buried by some of the smarks out there, him and Benoit trading off beautiful but meaningless matwork doesn't equal up to the brilliant storytelling that Austin and Rock did in their match.

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

5)Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

Let's face it: the I Quit match hasn't aged as well as a lot of Bret and Austin's other work, plus I've always hated the "passed out from the pain" finish. The brother vs. brother classic, on the other hand, was easily MOTN of that Wrestlemania... even with the ladder match on the same card.

The matwork wasn't meaningless in the Benoit vs Angle match. There was a point(s) to all the mat work they were doing. Saying it was meaningless is not fair.

 

 

I'm not sure if you're comparing Bret vs Austin at Mania to other Bret vs Austin matches or their indivudual work but the one thing I do know is that Bret vs Austin at Mania holds up as well as anything I've seen. People will still be enjoying this bout 30 years from now. The passing out finish was brilliant and vital to the match. One of the most important finishers ever in wrestling not only to the importance of the match but to Austin's career. Bret Hart as quoted by I believe Austin mentioned how Bret said the sharpshooter sequence would put Austin over with the fans. Bret couldn't have been more right. Really, it's even responsable for the dreaded attitude era in some ways.

[Jingus 0]

The matwork wasn't meaningless in the Benoit vs Angle match. There was a point(s) to all the mat work they were doing. Saying it was meaningless is not fair.

But it didn't really have a point, and it didn't really go anywhere. I love both Benoit and Angle as workers, but for some reason I've never thought they clicked together in the ring; the cage match from Raw is probably my favorite of theres. They do a LOT of matwork and counters that are amazingly fluid and lovely to watch, but it never really goes anywhere, and it's mostly forgotten by the end of the match. No matter what Angle or Benoit do on the mat early on, sooner or later they're gonna start suplexing the shit out of each other and all that earlier work just goes down the toilet. It's similar to a lot of the matwork in New Japan cruiserweight matches: fun to watch, but you know they're just wasting time til they get to the highspots.

 

I'm not sure if you're comparing Bret vs Austin at Mania to other Bret vs Austin matches or their indivudual work but the one thing I do know is that Bret vs Austin at Mania holds up as well as anything I've seen. People will still be enjoying this bout 30 years from now. The passing out finish was brilliant and vital to the match. One of the most important finishers ever in wrestling not only to the importance of the match but to Austin's career. Bret Hart as quoted by I believe Austin mentioned how Bret said the sharpshooter sequence would put Austin over with the fans. Bret couldn't have been more right. Really, it's even responsable for the dreaded attitude era in some ways.

 

The match they had at Survivor Series was way better in my opinion, so was the 10-man from Canadian Stampede (as I remember it, but it's been a while since I've seen that one, I need to watch it again sometime to refresh myself). All the brawling through the crowd in the WMXIII match looked a lot less revolutionary if you were already watching ECW at the time. And finally, yeah, the finish worked for Austin's character... but WCW had already done the EXACT same "pass out from the pain" finish with Luger just a few months prior at Fall Brawl '96 in the Wargames match, using the same hold no less.

[Guest wildpegasus]

The matwork wasn't meaningless in the Benoit vs Angle match. There was a point(s) to all the mat work they were doing. Saying it was meaningless is not fair.

But it didn't really have a point, and it didn't really go anywhere. I love both Benoit and Angle as workers, but for some reason I've never thought they clicked together in the ring; the cage match from Raw is probably my favorite of theres. They do a LOT of matwork and counters that are amazingly fluid and lovely to watch, but it never really goes anywhere, and it's mostly forgotten by the end of the match. No matter what Angle or Benoit do on the mat early on, sooner or later they're gonna start suplexing the shit out of each other and all that earlier work just goes down the toilet. It's similar to a lot of the matwork in New Japan cruiserweight matches: fun to watch, but you know they're just wasting time til they get to the highspots.

 

I'm not sure if you're comparing Bret vs Austin at Mania to other Bret vs Austin matches or their indivudual work but the one thing I do know is that Bret vs Austin at Mania holds up as well as anything I've seen. People will still be enjoying this bout 30 years from now. The passing out finish was brilliant and vital to the match. One of the most important finishers ever in wrestling not only to the importance of the match but to Austin's career. Bret Hart as quoted by I believe Austin mentioned how Bret said the sharpshooter sequence would put Austin over with the fans. Bret couldn't have been more right. Really, it's even responsable for the dreaded attitude era in some ways.

 

The match they had at Survivor Series was way better in my opinion, so was the 10-man from Canadian Stampede (as I remember it, but it's been a while since I've seen that one, I need to watch it again sometime to refresh myself). All the brawling through the crowd in the WMXIII match looked a lot less revolutionary if you were already watching ECW at the time. And finally, yeah, the finish worked for Austin's character... but WCW had already done the EXACT same "pass out from the pain" finish with Luger just a few months prior at Fall Brawl '96 in the Wargames match, using the same hold no less.

But it didn't really have a point, and it didn't really go anywhere

 

You're being vague. If you don't mind, name me some specific matwork in the match and I'll see if I can tell you the point of it. A lot of the point of this match is the story of desperation/oneupmanship which Benoit and Angle do a great job of portraying it.

 

They do a LOT of matwork and counters that are amazingly fluid and lovely to watch, but it never really goes anywhere, and it's mostly forgotten by the end of the match

 

Some of it "is", some of it isn't forgotten.

 

No matter what Angle or Benoit do on the mat early on, sooner or later they're gonna start suplexing the shit out of each other and all that earlier work just goes down the toilet.

 

So are they not allowed to suplex each other when the opportunity arises? In the matwork early on Benoit checks out Angle's knee by smartly building up to the sharpshooter. He checks it out and as we suspect from watching the previous Smackdown it's healed up so Benoit has to switch strageties.

 

 

 

All the brawling through the crowd in the WMXIII match looked a lot less revolutionary if you were already watching ECW at the time

 

It's not all about being revolutionary though. Somewhat because it immediatly showed Bret's descent more strongly by doing something that sticks out in people's minds because it is new*. A strong visual image if you will. Mostly though, it's about Bret's descent into the darkside and him leaving his morals to lower himself down to Austin's level.

 

*It's new to the WWF fans because ECW was a minor organization. It's also a new stragety for Bret Hart which is something I think the fans picked up on.

 

And finally, yeah, the finish worked for Austin's character... but WCW had already done the EXACT same "pass out from the pain" finish with Luger just a few months prior at Fall Brawl '96 in the Wargames match, using the same hold no less.

 

I can't remember that match but I don't see why it matters. One of the themes of Bret vs Austin was that Austin wasn't going to give up no matter what and despite being a heel was showing face like charactaristics such as the no quit attitude and being honest with himself unlike Bret who was in conflict with himself. Passing out in such a dramatic match fits into this so well. It did more for Austin than what winning the match would've.

[Jingus 0]

You're being vague. If you don't mind, name me some specific matwork in the match and I'll see if I can tell you the point of it. A lot of the point of this match is the story of desperation/oneupmanship which Benoit and Angle do a great job of portraying it.

Actually, I haven't seen this match since I watched it live on PPV, so no specific examples stick out in my head. But I've got their Wrestlemania X-7 and Ultimate Submissions matches here with me, so I'll take a look at those sometime tonight and come back with a couple.

 

So are they not allowed to suplex each other when the opportunity arises? In the matwork early on Benoit checks out Angle's knee by smartly building up to the sharpshooter. He checks it out and as we suspect from watching the previous Smackdown it's healed up so Benoit has to switch strageties.

 

It's just that none of either man's submissions were really set up ahead of time. Look at how Ric Flair or especially Bret Hart would work a leg before slapping on their finishing holds; Benoit and especially Angle do none of that. Angle doesn't bother even attacking their leg once before grabbing the anklelock, and Benoit is almost as bad with the crossface at times.

 

It's not all about being revolutionary though. Somewhat because it immediatly showed Bret's descent more strongly by doing something that sticks out in people's minds because it is new*. A strong visual image if you will. Mostly though, it's about Bret's descent into the darkside and him leaving his morals to lower himself down to Austin's level.

 

I agree with you, the best parts of the match were 1.Bret's new sociopathic attitude, and 2.the great camera shot of Austin's bloody face screaming in the sharpshooter.

 

*It's new to the WWF fans because ECW was a minor organization. It's also a new stragety for Bret Hart which is something I think the fans picked up on.

 

But this was right before the Barely Legal PPV, when the hype machine was going full-blast and the ECW Invasion episode of Raw was just a stone's throw away. The majority of fans had at least heard of it. Also, Mankind had been tearing through the company with a whole bunch of brawls for the year prior to this, so nothing in the I Quit match was really new.

 

I can't remember that match but I don't see why it matters. One of the themes of Bret vs Austin was that Austin wasn't going to give up no matter what and despite being a heel was showing face like charactaristics such as the no quit attitude and being honest with himself unlike Bret who was in conflict with himself. Passing out in such a dramatic match fits into this so well. It did more for Austin than what winning the match would've.

 

The finish did fit... but like I said, WCW did the exact same thing just a few months prior in the main event of a PPV, with Fake Fucking Sting and Lex Fucking Luger in place of Bret and Austin. The exact same finish: heel puts baby in sharpshooter (scorpion deathlock, same thing), baby doesn't submit but passes out from the pain anyway. And I'm amazed at the number of people who will still praise the WMXIII finish for being "creative" or "original".

[Guest Rrrsh]

I'm dissapointed with the love of Angle/Benoit over Rock/Austin. It sickens me.

Blind Rock/Austin love sickens me.

[Guest BobBacklundRules]

Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

HHH vs HBK vs Benoit-WM 20 (23-8)

Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

[Guest Ray]

It's just that none of either man's submissions were really set up ahead of time. Look at how Ric Flair or especially Bret Hart would work a leg before slapping on their finishing holds; Benoit and especially Angle do none of that. Angle doesn't bother even attacking their leg once before grabbing the anklelock, and Benoit is almost as bad with the crossface at times.

They don't need to "set up" anything. This is one of the biggest myths among internet wrestling fans. Submission holds can work without "set up." Not only is this common sense, it's also established pysch from their previous matches. Working a body part may help, but it's not required.

 

Actually, I haven't seen this match since I watched it live on PPV, so no specific examples stick out in my head.

Eh...if you can't remember, then why are you so sure the matwork didn't lead anywhere? I can't defend the matwork if I don't have specifics.

 

The finish did fit... but like I said, WCW did the exact same thing just a few months prior in the main event of a PPV, with Fake Fucking Sting and Lex Fucking Luger in place of Bret and Austin. The exact same finish: heel puts baby in sharpshooter (scorpion deathlock, same thing), baby doesn't submit but passes out from the pain anyway. And I'm amazed at the number of people who will still praise the WMXIII finish for being "creative" or "original".

Yeah, and EVERYONE remembers Sting/Luger doing it.

 

Wait...they don't. Austin/Bret is widely and correctly recognized as the match that saved WWF and made Austin a star. Not because it was "revolutionary" or "original", but because it was GREAT.

[godthedog 0]

i'll chime in here to defend the "i quit" ending...

 

the booking itself of the match is not terribly relevant. what made the ending great was what each guy was doing (especially austin) within the sequence. bret is holding on to the hold for dear life with a look of intensity that he rarely showed. austin, throughout the entire length of the hold, never stops working. he's always doing something. what sells the whole thing for me is that austin almost breaks the hold, something no one in the history of the company had ever done up to that point. austin fights and fights and fights through the pain, trying to outpower bret, and comes this close to getting out, but he's clearly in so much pain that he can't get his legs to move enough to escape, and bret recovers before austin can maneuver himself out. austin goes right back to thrashing around, and makes you believe his desperation and his pain. i haven't seen the wcw match in question, but i seriously doubt luger could do that kind of sell job. the BOOKING didn't make it great, AUSTIN and BRET made it great.

[Guest shez316]

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

 

42)Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

2)Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

 

Why do people think Bret was the greatest?

[Guest wildpegasus]

You're being vague. If you don't mind, name me some specific matwork in the match and I'll see if I can tell you the point of it. A lot of the point of this match is the story of desperation/oneupmanship which Benoit and Angle do a great job of portraying it.

Actually, I haven't seen this match since I watched it live on PPV, so no specific examples stick out in my head. But I've got their Wrestlemania X-7 and Ultimate Submissions matches here with me, so I'll take a look at those sometime tonight and come back with a couple.

 

So are they not allowed to suplex each other when the opportunity arises? In the matwork early on Benoit checks out Angle's knee by smartly building up to the sharpshooter. He checks it out and as we suspect from watching the previous Smackdown it's healed up so Benoit has to switch strageties.

 

It's just that none of either man's submissions were really set up ahead of time. Look at how Ric Flair or especially Bret Hart would work a leg before slapping on their finishing holds; Benoit and especially Angle do none of that. Angle doesn't bother even attacking their leg once before grabbing the anklelock, and Benoit is almost as bad with the crossface at times.

 

It's not all about being revolutionary though. Somewhat because it immediatly showed Bret's descent more strongly by doing something that sticks out in people's minds because it is new*. A strong visual image if you will. Mostly though, it's about Bret's descent into the darkside and him leaving his morals to lower himself down to Austin's level.

 

I agree with you, the best parts of the match were 1.Bret's new sociopathic attitude, and 2.the great camera shot of Austin's bloody face screaming in the sharpshooter.

 

*It's new to the WWF fans because ECW was a minor organization. It's also a new stragety for Bret Hart which is something I think the fans picked up on.

 

But this was right before the Barely Legal PPV, when the hype machine was going full-blast and the ECW Invasion episode of Raw was just a stone's throw away. The majority of fans had at least heard of it. Also, Mankind had been tearing through the company with a whole bunch of brawls for the year prior to this, so nothing in the I Quit match was really new.

 

I can't remember that match but I don't see why it matters. One of the themes of Bret vs Austin was that Austin wasn't going to give up no matter what and despite being a heel was showing face like charactaristics such as the no quit attitude and being honest with himself unlike Bret who was in conflict with himself. Passing out in such a dramatic match fits into this so well. It did more for Austin than what winning the match would've.

 

The finish did fit... but like I said, WCW did the exact same thing just a few months prior in the main event of a PPV, with Fake Fucking Sting and Lex Fucking Luger in place of Bret and Austin. The exact same finish: heel puts baby in sharpshooter (scorpion deathlock, same thing), baby doesn't submit but passes out from the pain anyway. And I'm amazed at the number of people who will still praise the WMXIII finish for being "creative" or "original".

Well, Ultimate submissions and Wrestlemania are two different matches but if you want to talk about the ups and downs of those matches I'll do it with ya.

 

 

It's just that none of either man's submissions were really set up ahead of time.  Look at how Ric Flair or especially Bret Hart would work a leg before slapping on their finishing holds; Benoit and especially Angle do none of that.  Angle doesn't bother even attacking their leg once before grabbing the anklelock, and Benoit is almost as bad with the crossface at times.

 

But you don't have to set up sumission work with previous work on a body part for it to work. In the Rumble match it's really the anklelock which is the "weardown" move for the submission tapout so there is work done in that regard. It works in this match. He just doesn't target it early on.

 

Benoit does work the bodyparts that get hurt in the crossface during the match. He uses a DDT on the apron, german suplexes, a flying headbutt to the back of the neck and whatever else so he does set up the crossface with bodypart damage.

 

 

But this was right before the Barely Legal PPV, when the hype machine was going full-blast and the ECW Invasion episode of Raw was just a stone's throw away.  The majority of fans had at least heard of it.  Also, Mankind had been tearing through the company with a whole bunch of brawls for the year prior to this, so nothing in the I Quit match was really new.

 

But it was new for Bret which was what counted.

[Guest wildpegasus]

i'll chime in here to defend the "i quit" ending...

 

the booking itself of the match is not terribly relevant.  what made the ending great was what each guy was doing (especially austin) within the sequence.  bret is holding on to the hold for dear life with a look of intensity that he rarely showed.  austin, throughout the entire length of the hold, never stops working.  he's always doing something.  what sells the whole thing for me is that austin almost breaks the hold, something no one in the history of the company had ever done up to that point.  austin fights and fights and fights through the pain, trying to outpower bret, and comes this close to getting out, but he's clearly in so much pain that he can't get his legs to move enough to escape, and bret recovers before austin can maneuver himself out.  austin goes right back to thrashing around, and makes you believe his desperation and his pain.  i haven't seen the wcw match in question, but i seriously doubt luger could do that kind of sell job.  the BOOKING didn't make it great, AUSTIN and BRET made it great.

And it was Bret Hart who said Austin fighting to break the sharpshooter like that would get the fans behind him before the match even happened. Truer words were never spoken.

[Tawren 0]

Looks like voting has all but dried up, so here are your round 4 winners:

 

Steve Austin vs The Rock, WrestleMania 17 (21 votes)

Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle, Royal Rumble 2003 (13 votes)

WINNER: Austin/Rock

 

Bret Hart vs Steve Austin, WrestleMania 13 (18 votes)

Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, WrestleMania 10 (16 votes)

WINNER:: Bret/Austin

 

Bret Hart vs British Bulldog, SummerSlam 1992 (13 votes)

Rey Misterio Jr vs Eddy Guerrero, Halloween Havoc 1997 (21 votes)

WINNER: Rey/Eddy

 

Triple H vs Shawn Micheals vs Chris Benoit, WrestleMania 20 (15 votes)

Bret Hart vs Steve Austin, Survivor Series 1996 (19 votes)

WINNER: Bret/Austin

 

Leaving our Final Four with Bret/Austin twice, Rey/Eddy, and Austin/Rock. I must say that I am exceedingly glad that the mania 3 way and Angle/Benoit lost, as neither was anywhere near as good as there opposing match.

 

That said, I'll leave it to someone else to make the 5th round thread. This isn't my tournament.

[The Mandarin 0]

That's a pretty good final four. I haven't seen either Austin/Bret in a very, very long time (seven years), but I assume they're amazing matches.

 

I hope Austin/Rock wins.

[BHK 0]

Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

 

 

Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

 

 

Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

 

 

Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

 

 

Here's to an all-Bret final.

[Guest momoracci]

Out of the remaining four, this is how I'm voting:

 

Bret/Austin - WM 13

Rey/Eddy - Havoc '97

 

I'll be sure to put this in the right thread whenever it comes up...

[Jingus 0]

They don't need to "set up" anything. This is one of the biggest myths among internet wrestling fans. Submission holds can work without "set up." Not only is this common sense, it's also established pysch from their previous matches. Working a body part may help, but it's not required.

Firstly, "internet wrestling fan"? I've been in wrestling as a manager, ring announcer, and television commentator for the past two years, and have even had a couple matches myself. Secondly, no, submission holds don't require any setup in real life, like in a shootfight. But pro wrestling bears very, very little resemblence to any real fight, especially the WWE. It's one of the unwritten rules of wrestling that you're supposed to work over a body part before trying to slap on a "finishing hold". Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Harley Race, and both Funks all worked over the legs before applying the figure-four, sharpshooter, indian deathlock, and spinning toehold. It's simple psychology: if the body part being targeted is 100%, then just about any hold isn't likely to produce a submission out of it; it's gotta be beaten on first.

 

Eh...if you can't remember, then why are you so sure the matwork didn't lead anywhere? I can't defend the matwork if I don't have specifics.

 

I went looking for my tape with all the Angle-Benoit matches and couldn't find it, so I don't have many specifics to offer, so yeah, you got me there.

 

Yeah, and EVERYONE remembers Sting/Luger doing it.  Wait...they don't. Austin/Bret is widely and correctly recognized as the match that saved WWF and made Austin a star. Not because it was "revolutionary" or "original", but because it was GREAT.

 

Well, actually the match that turned things around for the WWF and catapulted Austin to superstardom was the main event of Wrestlemania 14, with the massive hype that Mike Tyson drew to the event, but anyway. It's just that I've seen the I Quit match referred to many times as "groundbreaking" or some other similar term, when there isn't really a single revolutionary thing in the match. I'm tired of hearing it praised for it being "original" when it wasn't. A great, intense match that was easily MOTN? Certainly. Best WWF Match Of All Time? Hardly.

 

i'll chime in here to defend the "i quit" ending...

 

And if you'll look back and read my posts, I never called it a bad finish for their particular storyline; it's just that I've always hated the "pass out from the pain" finish in any match, no matter what the participants. It's kinda like the "both sets of shoulders down from a belly-to-back suplex" finish; it doesn't matter how good the match is, it just pisses me off every time because I think it's a copout to avoid having either guy actually do the job.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

But pro wrestling bears very, very little resemblence to any real fight, especially the WWE. It's one of the unwritten rules of wrestling that you're supposed to work over a body part before trying to slap on a "finishing hold". Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Harley Race, and both Funks all worked over the legs before applying the figure-four, sharpshooter, indian deathlock, and spinning toehold.

 

No this isn't always true. I've seen Race set up the Indian Deathlock with Suplexes and I know Funk and Flair have at times locked on their holds without leg work to build to it. Damn, Chi-Town is a rather famous excellent match where Flair doesn't work the leg at all to set up the Figure Four.

 

One of smartest workers of all time, The Destroyer, rarely worked over the leg to set up the Figure Four, his main concern was stunning his opponent long enough to lock the move on. The similar usage of the uber over Cross Armbreaker in Japan also comes to mind.

 

Angle and Beniot appeared to be using similar psychology in the Rumble match. However, it doesn't really work since sadly the Anklelock and Crossface aren't exactly the Destroyer's Figure Four or the Cross Armbreaker. They certaintly don't get the same deadly "instant tap out" treatment.

 

Truth be told it would have been worse if they worked over limbs to build to them, because the holds would have ended up even looking worse.

 

Either way, Angle and Beniot's usage of the submission holds is pretty far from the being the most brillaint history. It's not the worse either, it's a rather good match but as far as it being great or one of the best ever....I would have to say,"No, not even close."

 

 

Eh...if you can't remember, then why are you so sure the matwork didn't lead anywhere? I can't defend the matwork if I don't have specifics.

 

I went looking for my tape with all the Angle-Benoit matches and couldn't find it, so I don't have many specifics to offer, so yeah, you got me there.

 

Hmmmm, I don't recall any real "mat work" in the Rumble match. Beniot builds towards a Sharpshooter, hardly mat work. Actually, Beniot's smart build towards the Sharpshooter is one of the biggest bright spots of the match.

[Jingus 0]

Damn, Chi-Town is a rather famous excellent match where Flair doesn't work the leg at all to set up the Figure Four.

Shit, I did forget about that. Weird, since Chi-Town is my favorite of the "big 3" Flair/Steamboat matches.

 

One of smartest workers of all time, The Destroyer, rarely worked over the leg to set up the Figure Four, his main concern was stunning his opponent long enough to lock the move on. 

 

I've been wanting to see some Destroyer matches, but it seemed like the only person who has more than one or two of them was Lynch, and I never had enough money to spare to buy tapes through him.

 

The similar usage of the uber over Cross Armbreaker in Japan also comes to mind. 

 

Yeah, but the only hold like that I could think of that's used similarly in America is the Tazzmission, and Tazz wasn't exactly a bastion of psychological soundness in his matches.

[Guest Ray]

Firstly, "internet wrestling fan"? I've been in wrestling as a manager, ring announcer, and television commentator for the past two years, and have even had a couple matches myself.

*yawn* Flaunting your credentials will get you nowhere. You're a wrestling fan. You're on the internet.

 

Secondly, no, submission holds don't require any setup in real life, like in a shootfight. But pro wrestling bears very, very little resemblence to any real fight, especially the WWE.

Who said anything about "real life" ? I've seen plenty of wrestling matches where setup wasn't used or necessary. Hell, it's established in the previous Angle/Benoit matches, therefore it's pyschologically sound for them to attempt submissions with no 'setup.'

 

It's one of the unwritten rules of wrestling that you're supposed to work over a body part before trying to slap on a "finishing hold".

That's a pretty stupid "unwritten rule." Sorry, I don't have to follow your invisible rules.

 

Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Harley Race, and both Funks all worked over the legs before applying the figure-four, sharpshooter, indian deathlock, and spinning toehold.

That they did it doesn't mean everyone must do it. As I said, build can HELP. It's not REQUIRED.

 

if the body part being targeted is 100%, then just about any hold isn't likely to produce a submission out of it; it's gotta be beaten on first.

That's whay you and your mysterious rules that don't exist say. I don't agree with that line of thinking.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

1)Austin vs Rock-WM 17 (24-7)

9)Angle vs Benoit-Rumble '03 (17-14)

 

4)Bret vs Austin-WM 13 (24-7)

5)Bret vs Owen-WM 10 (30-1)

 

3)Rey vs Eddie-Halloween Havoc '97 (19-12)

42)Bret vs Bulldog-Summerslam '92 (17-14)

 

7)HHH vs HBK vs Benoit-WM 20 (23-8)

2)Bret vs Austin survivor series 96 (24-7)

[Jingus 0]

Well, let's just agree to disagree then. I personally hate it when a guy suddenly slaps on a finishing hold with nothing leading up to it; you apparently feel differently, and it looks like neither of us is gonna change our mind anytime soon.