State Of Morale In World Wrestling Entertainment

[Guest MikeSC]

Umm, Chris DID win his program with Rock.

-=Mike

 

Yeah, but think about the feud that came right after that.

Austin was a prick as was HHH.

-=Mike

[Guest Loss]

Umm, Rock is doing movies. Austin is retired. Angle is a bad bump from paralysis. Hard to overcome the loss of 3 huge money makers for you.

Rock v Austin didn't draw at Wrestlemania XIX, despite months of hype and the two both returning from long absences. Angle has never been a draw. The problem is not that they're missing people, the problem is that they have buried almost every wrestler to get over in the last five years, or at least made them go through the motions and raped them of nearly everything special about them.

 

As for the opportunities, nWo was a bad idea from the get go. WCW started losing money with the nWo angle for a reason. It was DEAD. They should've let it die and NEVER sign those 3 to begin with.

 

I agree with that, but once they got them, they should not have had them taking bumps their first week in the company. They shouldn't have signed them in the first place, but when they did, there was a better way to handle the situation.

 

As for Goldberg --- what the hell else could they do with him?

 

Not have Goldust put a wig on him.

Not have him talk.

Not have him do three jobs to HHH.

Not have him wrestle matches over five minutes.

 

If they were unwilling to do those things, then Goldberg never should have been signed.

 

Clean over Rock.

 

After Rock dragged him through a 16-minute match, controlled the offense for most of the match and kicked out of his finisher. There's a difference between doing a job and putting someone over.

 

Clean over Jericho.

 

Beating Jericho means nothing. Everyone has done it.

 

Annihilates HHH on PPV TWICE.

 

Gets annihilated by HHH on PPV TWICE. Also does a job to him on TV. Also gets beat down by him when Goldberg was never intended to be a sympathetic babyface. Yes, Goldberg had weaknesses as a performer, but so did Hogan, and the company worked around those weaknesses not to expose him. Goldberg should have gotten the same effort.

 

They CAN'T have him bury the entire roster because that would make the problem MUCH worse.

 

Goldberg should have been so dominant that it wasn't a struggle to see if he was going to win or not. The fans didn't want to invest themselves in his struggles. They wanted to watch him kill. WWE gave him few opportunities to do that and made him Just Another Sports Entertainer.

 

It's not THEIR fault that such a great "Draw" needs to be protected like nobody's business.

 

It's not. They're the ones who made the decision to hire him and expected him to draw. Therefore, they needed to push him right. NO selling and NO jobbing. NONE.

 

A recession was a problem. No company does well in a recession.

 

That doesn't explain why they weren't getting 5.8 TV ratings anymore, like they were when they originally jumped to TNN. Sure, people may not have been spending as much money, but why weren't they at least watching the show? Couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the show quality took a huge tumble, could it have?

 

The only guy they've screwed up is Jericho --- and he's always around the ME area.

 

Jericho should be the top guy in the company. He's not. He's been used horribly. He's kept at that level to make others look good. He rarely gets a bone thrown back in his own direction. If Jericho had become WWF World champ in 2000, would it have drawn? Yes. If Jericho became WWF World champ tomorrow, would it draw? Possibly, but most likely not.

 

RVD and Booker aren't ME caliber performers.

 

No, but they were both ME-caliber over until jobbing to HHH repeatedly.

 

Umm, Chris DID win his program with Rock.

                -=Mike

 

Jericho has Rock to thank for what little credibility he has now. God knows Austin, Michaels or HHH never did him any favors, and 'Taker never even bothered to work a program with him or Benoit. Jericho won one feud that meant nothing within three months of it being over, which is sad, because they had something special.

[Guest Choken One]

And all this time I thought Fi Fi raised morale.

I guess Bossman got to her.

[Guest Choken One]

Umm, Chris DID win his program with Rock.

                -=Mike

 

Jericho has Rock to thank for what little credibility he has now. God knows Austin, Michaels or HHH never did him any favors, and 'Taker never even bothered to work a program with him or Benoit. Jericho won one feud that meant nothing within three months of it being over, which is sad, because they had something special.

Didn't Austin lay down for Jericho twice?

 

They never really had a real feud but Austin did put him over twice...even though the second time was really just a time filler main event where the return of the nwo was the sell...but they really emphasized Jericho beating Austin at Vengence for the undisputed title

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

 

Umm, Chris DID win his program with Rock.

                -=Mike

 

Jericho has Rock to thank for what little credibility he has now. God knows Austin, Michaels or HHH never did him any favors, and 'Taker never even bothered to work a program with him or Benoit. Jericho won one feud that meant nothing within three months of it being over, which is sad, because they had something special.

Didn't Austin lay down for Jericho twice?

 

They never really had a real feud but Austin did put him over twice...even though the second time was really just a time filler main event where the return of the nwo was the sell...but they really emphasized Jericho beating Austin at Vengence for the undisputed title

Jericho won both matches as a DIRECT result of outside interference (from Booker T at Vengeance, and the nWo at No Way Out).

 

So he really wasn't put over by Austin at all.

[Guest Choken One]

Man! I completely forgot about that epic Austin/Booker program...

 

Theres the stip for the next Guerrero/JBL ppv "Mexican Bodega Brawl"

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

Man! I completely forgot about that epic Austin/Booker program...

In the grocery store, and a church...

 

"Price check on jackass~!"

 

EDIT: Jericho and Austin fought in a rematch the night after Vengeance as well, and Book *again* interfered, giving Jericho the convoluted win.

 

Did Jericho make ANY clean defenses as Undisputed Champion?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Not have him wrestle matches over five minutes.

 

If they were unwilling to do those things, then Goldberg never should have been signed.

(...)

Therefore, they needed to push him right. NO selling and NO jobbing. NONE.

As Mike already said:

They CAN'T have him bury the entire roster because that would make the problem MUCH worse. It's not THEIR fault that such a great "Draw" needs to be protected like nobody's business.

 

How in the hell could anyone else get over if Goldberg had to go over everyone? Admittedly, he would have been a better choice for strongest-booked guy than Non-Wrestler Steve Austin, but nobody seems to realizing that sacrificing everyone else's careers to get Goldberg over is what set WCW's head upon the chopping block. When fans stopped caring about Goldberg is when the blade came down, because they had no one left to depend on that looked credible.

 

Damn, I'm agreeing with Mike. Now I'm listening to Rush and buying Halliburton stock NOOOO...

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

They wanted Goldberg without the sacrifices that make Goldberg special. It is no fault but their own. Hell, JR even said on OTR that they should have done things differently and "let Goldberg be Goldberg". But this is the WWE, and you can't be anything if you're not trademarked by them.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Man! I completely forgot about that epic Austin/Booker program...

In the grocery store, and a church...

 

"Price check on jackass~!"

"Booker T doesn't want any crackers!" - Jerry Lawler

 

And a looker-on taunting Booker, calling him "boy".

 

I just LOVED that skit. I definitely didn't think it was a coincidence that the following Monday, they had MAVEN go on camera and say how he thought that the brawl was the funniest thing ever.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

So he really wasn't put over by Austin at all.

 

Not surprising to hear that.

 

Did Jericho make ANY clean defenses as Undisputed Champion?

 

Sadly, not even once as far as I can remember. Its bullshit his 3 month feud with The Rock never resulted in 1 clean win.

[Da Maintenance Man 0]

The only guy they've screwed up is Jericho --- and he's always around the ME area. RVD and Booker aren't ME caliber performers.

 

RVD not a ME caliber performer? Understandable. He's upper midcard at best. Booker T not a ME caliber performer?? What the hell are you smoking?? All nagging injuries aside Booker is a great wrestler. I'd rather see him in JBL's spot right now.

[Placebo Effect 0]

http://www.ruedebona.com/resume.html

 

I love how the girl doesn't even list WWE on her resume.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking Twice]

http://www.ruedebona.com/resume.html

 

I love how the girl doesn't even list WWE on her resume.

Either they haven't updated it yet or it's saying something.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

^ That was fast.

[Art Sandusky 0]

When you register with an E-mail address of [email protected], you'll get nailed quickly.

[Guest MikeSC]

As for Goldberg --- what the hell else could they do with him?

 

Not have Goldust put a wig on him.

Not have him talk.

Not have him do three jobs to HHH.

Not have him wrestle matches over five minutes.

 

If they were unwilling to do those things, then Goldberg never should have been signed.

So, why is "burying" a guy who can't talk or work matches longer than 5 minutes BAD? Hell, he's Ultiimate Warrior.

 

And when did he do three jobs to HHH? SummerSlam is one. You can STRETCH and call Armageddon one (Kane actually KO'd him). Where was the 3rd one?

Clean over Rock.

After Rock dragged him through a 16-minute match, controlled the offense for most of the match and kicked out of his finisher. There's a difference between doing a job and putting someone over.

Rock put him over fine. Jericho was the total heel and won in a heelish fashion.

Annihilates HHH on PPV TWICE.

Gets annihilated by HHH on PPV TWICE.

Interesting.

 

SummerSlam: Runs through almost everybody in the match --- INCLUDING HHH. Jobs to a sledgehammer.

Unforgiven: Dominates HHH for the belt.

Survivor Series: Beats up Evolution AND HHH WITH a broken ankle to retain.

Armageddon: Kane choke slams him and HHH crawls on top for a win.

 

At no point did HHH annihilate him.

Also does a job to him on TV.

When did he job to him on TV?

Also gets beat down by him when Goldberg was never intended to be a sympathetic babyface. Yes, Goldberg had weaknesses as a performer, but so did Hogan, and the company worked around those weaknesses not to expose him. Goldberg should have gotten the same effort.

Hogan's drawn. GB has never shown himself to be that good a draw.

They CAN'T have him bury the entire roster because that would make the problem MUCH worse.

Goldberg should have been so dominant that it wasn't a struggle to see if he was going to win or not. The fans didn't want to invest themselves in his struggles. They wanted to watch him kill. WWE gave him few opportunities to do that and made him Just Another Sports Entertainer.

And who would he "kill"? You like the idea of a TOTALLY buried roster?

It's not THEIR fault that such a great "Draw" needs to be protected like nobody's business.

It's not. They're the ones who made the decision to hire him and expected him to draw. Therefore, they needed to push him right. NO selling and NO jobbing. NONE.

Oh good lord. NOBODY deserves that treatment. GB should be expected to LEARN how to work a match at some point in his useless career.

A recession was a problem. No company does well in a recession.

That doesn't explain why they weren't getting 5.8 TV ratings anymore, like they were when they originally jumped to TNN.

Wrestling ALWAYS nose dives during a recession.

Sure, people may not have been spending as much money, but why weren't they at least watching the show? Couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the show quality took a huge tumble, could it have?

The show was actually quite decent in the second half of 2001 --- numbers didn't improve.

RVD and Booker aren't ME caliber performers.

No, but they were both ME-caliber over until jobbing to HHH repeatedly.

Neither ever was. BOTH have MASSIVE flaws that makes them poor draws.

They wanted Goldberg without the sacrifices that make Goldberg special. It is no fault but their own. Hell, JR even said on OTR that they should have done things differently and "let Goldberg be Goldberg". But this is the WWE, and you can't be anything if you're not trademarked by them.

And let's say they did that.

 

Who would they have as heels NOW?

 

Batista would've been buried. Orton would've been buried. Kane would've been buried.

 

Allowing ONE man --- especially a somewhat injury prone prima donna who doesn't even LIKE wrestling --- to thrash everybody is HORRIBLE business.

 

I remember the incessant bitching about Austin, when he was active, dominating everybody. Hell, at least Austin can work GOOD matches here and there.

-=Mike

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

And let's say they did that.

 

Who would they have as heels NOW?

 

Batista would've been buried. Orton would've been buried. Kane would've been buried.

 

Allowing ONE man --- especially a somewhat injury prone prima donna who doesn't even LIKE wrestling --- to thrash everybody is HORRIBLE business.

 

I remember the incessant bitching about Austin, when he was active, dominating everybody. Hell, at least Austin can work GOOD matches here and there.

-=Mike

 

None of my concern - they shouldn't have hired him in the first place if they didn't know how to use him.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

None of my concern - they shouldn't have hired him in the first place if they didn't know how to use him.

 

He isn't worth what it takes to use him properly. He never should have been hired, period. Same with the NWO in 2002.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

When did he job to him on TV?

 

It was a handicapped match last year (I forgot the date) with Goldberg against HHH, Batista, & Orton. Bill finally lost after taking 3 finishers in a row.

 

There was another match where Orton was like Goldberg's mystery partner for a tag match against HHH & Flair, but I believe it was thrown out as they all jumped him. HHH posed with the belt on top of a steel cage at the end of the show.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

As we have been saying here on PWInsider.com for a while now, as a company the brass of World Wrestling Entertainment has done a fabulous job over the past few years in cutting costs as they have seen their main financial numbers regress as the business has become less popular and thus generated fewer dollars for the company coffers.  But, the money cuts have also been passed down to the talent, both on and off camera, which has led to discontent among many.

 

 

Really just wanted to respond to the bolded part; It's not the business that has become less popular. It's the product. If they were putting out good product it would be just as popular as any boom period. Anyone who watches SD! right now can attest to the poor product being aired on a weekly basis.

I think the loss of the two most popular stars in the history of the business to Hollywood and injuries has something to do with that.

Rock and Austin leaving made Smackdown suck?

If Rock and Austin were full-time the landscape of the WWE would be quite different. i don't know how specifically, but SD! would be better, no doubt.

[Guest MikeSC]

And let's say they did that.

 

Who would they have as heels NOW?

 

Batista would've been buried. Orton would've been buried. Kane would've been buried.

 

Allowing ONE man --- especially a somewhat injury prone prima donna who doesn't even LIKE wrestling --- to thrash everybody is HORRIBLE business.

 

I remember the incessant bitching about Austin, when he was active, dominating everybody. Hell, at least Austin can work GOOD matches here and there.

-=Mike

 

None of my concern - they shouldn't have hired him in the first place if they didn't know how to use him.

If using him properly means burying your roster, NOBODY should hire that cancer.

-=Mike

[Lil' Bitch 0]

And like HHH said when they interviewed shortly after it was announced Goldberg had signed with the company: We don't have a 300-guy-deep talent roster to feed him 200 wins.

[Guest MikeSC]

When did he job to him on TV?

 

It was a handicapped match last year (I forgot the date) with Goldberg against HHH, Batista, & Orton. Bill finally lost after taking 3 finishers in a row.

 

There was another match where Orton was like Goldberg's mystery partner for a tag match against HHH & Flair, but I believe it was thrown out as they all jumped him. HHH posed with the belt on top of a steel cage at the end of the show.

And these constitute HHH "annihilating" GB (not in your eyes, Deon --- I don't think you were the one who said it)?

-=Mike

[Guest Loss]

So, why is "burying" a guy who can't talk or work matches longer than 5 minutes BAD? Hell, he's Ultiimate Warrior.

Goldberg is bad, no doubt. He had an attitude problem and couldn't maintain his heat unless he was fiercely dominant at all times. He also thought he knew more about wrestling than he did and seemed unwilling to learn or adjust. All said, if they weren't going to hire him and have him dominate everyone, then they never should have hired him. There was no point in bringing him in if they were going to homogenize him just like they do everyone else. He was being paid millions of dollars to bring a return on the investment, and they put him in positions where he couldn't.

 

And when did he do three jobs to HHH? SummerSlam is one. You can STRETCH and call Armageddon one (Kane actually KO'd him). Where was the 3rd one?

 

The night after Survivor Series on RAW.

 

Rock put him over fine. Jericho was the total heel and won in a heelish fashion.

 

Rock kicked out of the jackhammer in Goldberg's first match in the company. When you're trying to create a new monster draw, you don't pull shit like that and then still expect him to deliver.

 

SummerSlam: Runs through almost everybody in the match --- INCLUDING HHH. Jobs to a sledgehammer.

Unforgiven: Dominates HHH for the belt.

Survivor Series: Beats up Evolution AND HHH WITH a broken ankle to retain.

Armageddon: Kane choke slams him and HHH crawls on top for a win.

 

At no point did HHH annihilate him.

 

HHH was competitive with him, which is the equivalent of annihilating him. If Hulk Hogan could get in little offense and do a job in under 10 minutes (and not get his win back), then HHH could do the same.

 

*snip*

 

Hogan's drawn. GB has never shown himself to be that good a draw.

 

Hogan only became a draw because of the way he was pushed. They both came along and got enornmous reactions compared to the rest of the roster. The difference was that the business changed to accomodate Hogan's strengths so he could draw all that money and Goldberg was expected to adapt.

 

And who would he "kill"? You like the idea of a TOTALLY buried roster?

 

If EVERYONE is losing to him, it simply establishes that Goldberg is the best they have. The roster would not have been buried because they all would have lost to him.

 

Oh good lord. NOBODY deserves that treatment. GB should be expected to LEARN how to work a match at some point in his useless career.

 

At some point, yes. Not when he's being built up and already is as over as he is.

 

Wrestling ALWAYS nose dives during a recession.

 

People don't just stop watching TV during a recession though. No other television shows saw a ratings plunge after 9/11. WWE did because the show was no longer as good as it once was and the fans were starting to lose faith in the company. Besides, as you've pointed out many times, the recession was over in 2002. This doesn't explain Austin/Rock not drawing at Wrestlemania XIX.

 

The show was actually quite decent in the second half of 2001 --- numbers didn't improve.

 

DirecTV played a part in that, as did Austin playing the heel.

 

Neither ever was. BOTH have MASSIVE flaws that makes them poor draws.

 

They can get over. That's all that matters. RVD can't talk and he's a bad worker, but the crowd ate up everything he did with a spoon until he did repeated jobs for Austin, Undertaker and HHH. Had the world title been put on him in 2001, it would have drawn.

 

Who would they have as heels NOW?

 

Who *do* they have as heels now? Orton and Batista are in HHH's shadow and Kane loses every big match he has.

 

Allowing ONE man --- especially a somewhat injury prone prima donna who doesn't even LIKE wrestling --- to thrash everybody is HORRIBLE business.

 

The criticisms of Goldberg are valid. But they shouldn't have hired him if they weren't willing to make him invincible at all times.

 

I remember the incessant bitching about Austin, when he was active, dominating everybody. Hell, at least Austin can work GOOD matches here and there.

 

Yes he can. But Austin would still be every bit the draw he is if he couldn't.