Tiger Mask V Dynamite Kid

[Guest Kane Fan]

What do you all think of this series of matches - what's the best meeting between these two? Also, did one of their matches take place in WWWF?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I can take this one.

 

They had (obviously) one of the most innovative and exciting series in wrestling history. They both easily brought out the best in each other as both's greatest matches were against the other. I would have to say that their greatest meeting was their 5/8/82 match as it was incredible. I don't think they ever fought in the WWWF as it was the WWF from the time of their feud on(I could be wrong about this though)......

[Tawren 0]

One of their matches was in MSG. 8/30/82, I believe. So that would have had to have been in the WWF.

[Guest krazykat72]

to clarify, if we're going by the American date system, I believe the best match they had was August 5th, 1982. It won the Observer MOTY that year and still stands up really well today. The next best was probably 4/21/83, which was really intense and the work was really good, but the multiple starting and stopping detracts a bit.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Kane Fan]

Yeah I think it was WWF actually. Sorry, my bad. I'm also interested in your star ratings for these matches...

[Guest krazykat72]

The one's I've seen

 

4/23/81 **1/2

1/1/82 ***

1/28/82 ***1/4

7/30/82 ***1/2

8/5/82 ****3/4

8/30/82 ***1/2

4/21/83 ****1/4

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[IWD 0]

Their match from 8/5/82 is my favourite of all time.

 

Cheers.

[landy1987 0]

strangely, a few of these matches were shown last night here in the UK on our Wrestling Channel on a special Dynamite Kid show. I have yet to watch the full show yet but I know one of the matches was their match from MSG from 8/30/82 which has been mentioned. I think another was from 1/1/82 in Japan and there may have been another one I can't quite remember

[theintensifier 0]

I got the Best of Dynamite Kid from Golden Boy Tapes, and the matches are incredible. They set the tone for the light heavyweight division.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I love this series of matches. The technique, speed and manuevers were fantastic. My favourite of the bunch is 4/21/83 which contains many of my favourite happenings ever in a wrestling ring. I feel sorry for some of those that take pleasure in calling the series overrated because they're just missing out.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I'm not missing out, I'm just enjoying better matches.

[Jingus 0]

In terms of physical execution of moves, DK/TM was one of the more incredible feuds in history. Here were two of the fastest wrestlers in the world trading off spots, which at times looked simply amazing. The issues some people have with the matches come with the pacing and selling, like how either man could take a tombstone piledriver and be back up and fighting within twenty seconds.

[Guest Ray]

I'm not missing out, I'm just enjoying better matches.

That better matches exist doesn't mean these matches aren't good/great.

[Guest Deviant]

I don't suppose anywhere has any of these matches to download.

 

I don't feel like buying full shows for one match, I'm cheap, sue me.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm not missing out, I'm just enjoying better matches.

But even with those "better" matches they couldn't do what Tiger and Dynamite did so that will always make them special.

[Guest Kane Fan]

Yeah, that's one thing I dislike about the matches - they don't sell the piledrivers well.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

I don't feel like buying full shows for one match, I'm cheap, sue me.

 

You don't have to.

[Guest Black Tiger]

But even with those "better" matches they couldn't do what Tiger and Dynamite did so that will always make them special.

 

Benoit and Lyger took the mold created by Billington and Sayama and simply perfected it.

 

I don't feel like buying full shows for one match, I'm cheap, sue me.

 

New Japan released a few commerical tapes to chronicle Sayama's career as Tiger Mask, you can probably find at least a couple of them at Highspots.

[IWD 0]

I've got a 5-hour best of Sayama collection, and 4 or 5 volumes of Dynamite Kid. There's plenty of comps about if you check the traders.

[Guest Ray]

I don't suppose anywhere has any of these matches to download.

 

I don't feel like buying full shows for one match, I'm cheap, sue me.

They're all available for download on DC++

 

 

If you want a tape, buy this: http://www.wrestleholicsvideos.com/bestofs/b0050.htm

 

The video quality is absolutely flawless, their service is fast, and it's only $10.00

[Jingus 0]

Funny thing: my post above made the Idiots thread at airraidcrash, with Chris Coey calling me "blind" for what I said.

 

Now, let's compare my comment...

 

The issues some people have with the matches come with the pacing and selling, like how either man could take a tombstone piledriver and be back up and fighting within twenty seconds.

 

...with one Chris made about the same matches in said thread:

 

See how many times they hit big spots for the era and then pop up, miraculously unharmed, just seconds later.

 

A case of the blind leading the blind, I guess.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Jingus, I think his crack was aimed at this line:

 

"In terms of physical execution of moves, DK/TM was one of the more incredible feuds in history."

 

The issues many newer fans have with those matches isn't just that the pacing gets in the way of good selling, but also that it gets in the way of good execution. Hence, his line about Tiger Mask wiffing on a dropkick and Dynamite having to sell it as if it connected.

 

I've only seen one Tiger mask vs. Dynamite Kid match, but it seemed to confirm the criticisms. Dynamite's bumping was great, and they had some neat exchanges, both standing and on the mat, but Sayama was spotty not only in selling, but in executing moves properly. The match also didn't have very much build and had a very NJ Juniors "OK, matwork over, time to move on to the high spots" feel.

 

I guess watching Tiger Mask in the eighties must have been like watching Sabu in the nineties. After the initial "wow" factor wears off, all you're left with is a bunch of spots that don't have anything tying them together and little reason to care about the workers executing them.

[Jingus 0]

I was just talking about how damned fast they did everything. Yeah, that did end up with a lot of missed shots and blown spots, but the speed itself was often breathtaking. It was like 1996 Ultimo Dragon vs. 1994 Chris Benoit in terms of how insanely quick they were moving. When they nailed their spots right, it was beautiful to watch.

[Guest momoracci]

It's nothing revolutionary if you've seen Jaguar Yokota's work from the time.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Jingus, I think his crack was aimed at this line:

 

"In terms of physical execution of moves, DK/TM was one of the more incredible feuds in history."

 

The issues many newer fans have with those matches isn't just that the pacing gets in the way of good selling, but also that it gets in the way of good execution. Hence, his line about Tiger Mask wiffing on a dropkick and Dynamite having to sell it as if it connected.

 

I've only seen one Tiger mask vs. Dynamite Kid match, but it seemed to confirm the criticisms. Dynamite's bumping was great, and they had some neat exchanges, both standing and on the mat, but Sayama was spotty not only in selling, but in executing moves properly. The match also didn't have very much build and had a very NJ Juniors "OK, matwork over, time to move on to the high spots" feel.

 

I guess watching Tiger Mask in the eighties must have been like watching Sabu in the nineties. After the initial "wow" factor wears off, all you're left with is a bunch of spots that don't have anything tying them together and little reason to care about the workers executing them.

"In terms of physical execution of moves, DK/TM was one of the more incredible feuds in history."

 

The issues many newer fans have with those matches isn't just that the pacing gets in the way of good selling, but also that it gets in the way of good execution. Hence, his line about Tiger Mask wiffing on a dropkick and Dynamite having to sell it as if it connected.

 

4/21/83 doesn't have any of the missed dropkicks problem. Neither does their match where the title was previously held up. There were a couple of times where we had some hits that didn't connect too hard but on the execution part all told Dynamite and Tiger were awesome. Dynamite's headbutts, his dropkick/nipup, headbutts, knees to the face and piledrivers are a treat to see. Tiger's plancha over the top rope, space flying tiger drop and his overall speed are well executed. In fact, they're clearly on a level all by themselves

 

I guess watching Tiger Mask in the eighties must have been like watching Sabu in the nineties

 

Tiger may not have had the most likeable matches in a physcological sense but he had tools that no wrestlers really have. He had a knack for very cool reversals, of course the aforementioned speed, a fantastic arsenal of moves, charisma and an aura around him becasuse he was the one wrestler that came from the manga/TV show, was never pinned (at least after donning the mask) and really was a comic book come to life. The never pinned deal combined with the physical attributes he brought to the table in the 80s mind you made all his stuff intersting. The presence that Tiger Mask had in the rings and the way he stuck out from other wrestlers still works for me today. I like to put myself in the shoes of a fan of the 80s watching this for the first time which is how the matches should be looked at so one can get the most appreciation from them. All of this combines to make Tiger's stuff more rewatchable than other wrestlers who are remarkable in some ways but do not exhibit the strongest physcological matches inside the ring.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I'm not missing out, I'm just enjoying better matches.

That better matches exist doesn't mean these matches aren't good/great.

Well if there's better matches than it's hard to call them the greatest of all time.

 

Anyways, 8/5/82 and I believe 1/28/82 are the best of the bunch. 4/21/83 is close behind. Yet even these three have an incomplete feel to them since they still don't bring all their trademark spots and high end offense to the table in any of em, though 8/82 comes close.

 

The rest are really bunch of exhibitions with a few varied token spots throw in for differentation sake, no real progression of the fued.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

4/21/83 doesn't have any of the missed dropkicks problem. Neither does their match where the title was previously held up. There were a couple of times where we had some hits that didn't connect too hard but on the execution part all told Dynamite and Tiger were awesome. Dynamite's headbutts, his dropkick/nipup, headbutts, knees to the face and piledrivers are a treat to see. Tiger's plancha over the top rope, space flying tiger drop and his overall speed are well executed. In fact, they're clearly on a level all by themselves.

I understand that they eventually started to click with the spots. Still, I'd rather watch the '90's NJ Juniors work the same style of match with more smarts and drama. Sayama and Billington deserve credit for popularizing that style, but Liger, Benoit, Ohtani, and others deserve credit for using the hot moves and speed to greater effect by incorperating great selling and progression of moves beyond the "Time to move on and hit our spots" mentality.

 

Tiger may not have had the most likeable matches in a physcological sense but he had tools that no wrestlers really have. He had a knack for very cool reversals, of course the aforementioned speed, a fantastic arsenal of moves, charisma and an aura around him becasuse he was the one wrestler that came from the manga/TV show, was never pinned (at least after donning the mask) and really was a comic book come to life. The never pinned deal combined with the physical attributes he brought to the table in the 80s mind you made all his stuff intersting. The presence that Tiger Mask had in the rings and the way he stuck out from other wrestlers still works for me today. I like to put myself in the shoes of a fan of the 80s watching this for the first time which is how the matches should be looked at so one can get the most appreciation from them. All of this combines to make Tiger's stuff more rewatchable than other wrestlers who are remarkable in some ways but do not exhibit the strongest physcological matches inside the ring.

It's hard to buy the myth about Sayama being the only one with the speed, moves, and what not when there were guys like Tatsumi Fujinami and Gran Hamada who were also capable. Like you hinted at, he should be judged based on context, and without watching the other matches from the same period, both from New Japan and the other Japanese promotions, there's little point in making the argument that they were "ahead of their time."

[Guest SoZe]

That better matches exist doesn't mean these matches aren't good/great.

 

Well if there's better matches than it's hard to call them the greatest of all time.

 

 

The rest are really bunch of exhibitions with a few varied token spots throw in for differentation sake, no real progression of the fued.

Which he DID NOT.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Which he DID NOT.

 

I think Ray can speak for himself. I wouldn't even call any of their matches great, though some are very good.

[Guest wildpegasus]

4/21/83 doesn't have any of the missed dropkicks problem. Neither does their match where the title was previously held up. There were a couple of  times where we had some hits that didn't connect too hard but on the execution part all told Dynamite and Tiger were awesome. Dynamite's headbutts, his dropkick/nipup, headbutts, knees to the face and piledrivers are a treat to see. Tiger's plancha over the top rope, space flying tiger drop and his overall speed are well executed. In fact, they're clearly on a level all by themselves.

I understand that they eventually started to click with the spots. Still, I'd rather watch the '90's NJ Juniors work the same style of match with more smarts and drama. Sayama and Billington deserve credit for popularizing that style, but Liger, Benoit, Ohtani, and others deserve credit for using the hot moves and speed to greater effect by incorperating great selling and progression of moves beyond the "Time to move on and hit our spots" mentality.

 

Tiger may not have had the most likeable matches in a physcological sense but he had tools that no wrestlers really have. He had a knack for very cool reversals, of course the aforementioned speed, a fantastic arsenal of moves, charisma and an aura around him becasuse he was the one wrestler that came from the manga/TV show, was never pinned (at least after donning the mask) and really was a comic book come to life. The never pinned deal combined with the physical attributes he brought to the table in the 80s mind you made all his stuff intersting. The presence that Tiger Mask had in the rings and the way he stuck out from other wrestlers still works for me today. I like to put myself in the shoes of a fan of the 80s watching this for the first time which is how the matches should be looked at so one can get the most appreciation from them. All of this combines to make Tiger's stuff more rewatchable than other wrestlers who are remarkable in some ways but do not exhibit the strongest physcological matches inside the ring.

It's hard to buy the myth about Sayama being the only one with the speed, moves, and what not when there were guys like Tatsumi Fujinami and Gran Hamada who were also capable. Like you hinted at, he should be judged based on context, and without watching the other matches from the same period, both from New Japan and the other Japanese promotions, there's little point in making the argument that they were "ahead of their time."

I understand that they eventually started to click with the spots. Still, I'd rather watch the '90's NJ Juniors work the same style of match with more smarts and drama

 

I too like the 90s matches the best on an overall basis. The matches tend to be a little more cohesive. It's tough to beat some of Benoit, Liger and Ohtani's stuff. 4/21/83 and a couple of others were pretty dramatic however. Really the dramatic parts of 4/21/83 is a lot of the reason why I love it. The smartness thing is different here though. You have to be smart to be coming up with some of the stuff they were doing because they were making their own blueprints on the go without preplanning a thing and not really relying on someone else before them. It's a different type of smartness than making a match that a lot of we smarks like to think of as the smart way to do things. For example take a look at Benoit's comments one time after his first PPV match against Angle after neck surgery. He commented about matches he had on his mental trophy case. They were Benoit vs Angle from Mania, the Unforgiven match, Benoit vs Regal at the Pillman Memorial show and the underappreciated Benoit vs Hart tribute match. Looking at those matches I'd say a lot of people would have Benoit vs Regal and Benoit vs Hart (which is truly brilliant) as the smart ones while the two Benoit vs Angle matches as the ones that weren't quite as smart. Still Benoit has all 4 of them mentioned as being on his mental trophy case so for him the mental thinking he had to do in those 4 matches were all assumably fairly close. Why? Because even though there's controversial selling in them the matches feature some very intriguing chain and amateur wrestling among other things that definitely took thought so even though some of the fans might not completely like the vision of wrestling Angle and Benoit are putting forth the work itself is still smart.

 

It's hard to buy the myth about Sayama being the only one with the speed, moves, and what not when there were guys like Tatsumi Fujinami and Gran Hamada who were also capable

 

Fujinami and Hamada were impressive. No doubt about that as they were doing some very cool things in the ring. I remember seeing Fujinami as a lightheavy in North America and how it was just so evident that he was just from a different planet in some of the things he could do in the ring. Still, for the avearage fan they didn't have as much as the "wow, knock you out of your seat" factor that was so clearly evident in the DK vs Tiger Mask match from MSG. As much as I like them Fujinami or Hamada probably couldn't have come in as unknowns in MSG and have the fans completely off thier feet.