Bret Hart responds to Ric Flair's comments

[geniusMoment 0]

I can except that.

[Guest MikeSC]

Funk was seem in a higher light during their feud in 1989 because Flair and him were in main events But, after the feud he was viewed as a Texas legend, the same as before. During the feud with the main eventer basically everyone is looked at in a higher light, it is just natural.

 

But back to the point, I assume then you are saying Flair helped "remake" funk not make him, am I correct?

Basically. Funk's late career renaissance was due, largely, to the Flair program. It helped show that Funk COULD still work.

-=Mike

[godthedog 0]

mick foley.

Was a total mark for himself.

how so?

 

i can think of maybe one ocassion of patting himself of the back a bit too much, in referring to his 96 match with shawn michaels as one of the greatest bouts of all time. he knows he has a way of tying a match together without being a sound technician, but that's almost always about as far as his self-praise goes. he's not one to say "i am one of the GREATEST OF ALL TIME!"

[Guest Loss]

I don't think Foley's a mark for himself, but he tends to put himself down a lot to beg compliments. He's certainly an attention whore.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Ric Flair MADE him look like a possible World Champion.

-I agree with you. He's not the only one to make Luger look like that, so he wasn't souly responsible for it.

 

And before their run in 1987 --- you know, when Windham became a ME-level performer --- Barry was little more than a good tag wrestler.

Barry was also young and coming into his own. Also, he might have been only a "good tag team wrestler" to you, but he was established as a singles guy in Florida before he was ever really considered a tag team wrestler.

 

Flair jobbing the Mid-Atlantic TV Title to him in Steamboat's first match in the region, immediately making him a name in the territory. Rick Steamboat was hardly a well-known commodity before then.

Steamboat wasn't a well known commodity after it either. He established himself the most after him and Paul Jones won the NWA Tag Team Titles and then into singles stardom in the 80's.

 

Because it was his work with Flair BEFORE that that made him a national star. You seem to put more emphasis on his "most famous matches" (and, honestly, his work with Flair owned his work with Valentine) rather than the work that "put him over on a national basis".

 

It wasn't his work with Flair that made him a national star. Hell, Piper made his name wrestling in Oregon and LA. That was definately before he ever reached the Mid Atlantic area where he wrestled Flair.

 

No, Flair making Morton look like he COULD beat the World Champ made that excellent series of matches work.

 

But your missing the point. Morton was already a credible contender considering his status as a babyface. He was ALWAYS billed as the underdog and Flair ALWAYS made it look like guys were kicking his ass.....Flair did that with everyone......so him doing it with Morton isn't any different.

 

 

Flair was the guy who carried him --- almost literally --- at Bash 1985 when Koloff was the most insanely green worker on the planet --- and made him look like a God.

That's fine Mike, but like I said. Flair wasn't the only one to do so. The reason why Nikita was the commodity he was is because of his gimmick......not the way he was handled in the ring.

 

Flair let Giant squash him in a way World Champs seldom allow basically rookies to squash them.

Think about it Mike. Flair didn't really have a choice did he? Considering that it wouldn't have made much sense to have the Giant lose to Flair.....it wasn't Flair who should get the credit.......unless he booked it.

 

Re-watch their stuff in Mid-South.

Watch Dibiase's All Japan stuff.......and he didn't wrestle Flair in every match.

 

And Flair made them big NATIONALLY. Is it really this hard to follow? He carried Kerry to matches that were significantly better than anything Kery did. He made Kevin look like a million bucks --- no small feat. He made David into a superstar.

 

Flair didn't make the Von Erich's nationally. NOBODY did. The only time they were ever on a national scale is when Kerry was in the WWF, otherwise they were never promoted outside of Texas.....because they weren't DRAWS.

 

Yeah, THAT is exactly why Magnum got over. Because of Dusty. Sure.

 

Good point Mike. Because remember if you are ever paired with one of the biggest babyfaces EVER then it would never get you over.......huh?

 

If he was capable --- why didn't he? Why was it Flair who did it?

 

Terry Funk is one of the greatest workers of all time. If you can't see that then maybe your the one that needs to go back and watch his matches. Also, Flair didn't make the feud......it was Funk's wild man persona.......the matches were overrated compared to the fued itself.

 

So I think you are laying a little too much credit on Flair shoulders for these things.........

 

And you're giving him NONE, which is f'n absurd.

I give Flair shitloads of credit. He carried the NWA on his back as one of the most entertaining superstars in wrestling history. He had the greatest fued of all time on North American soil with Ricky Steamboat. He was given the world title how many times over? Hell, I am currently reading his book that I BOUGHT.....how much more do I have to tell you to prove to you that I am not against Flair. I am just over the fact that everyone goes fucking bonkers for everything that he does and I can see past that. But that doesn't take away from the fact of what he has accomplished though...........

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Funk was seem in a higher light during their feud in 1989 because Flair and him were in main events  But, after the feud he was viewed as a Texas legend, the same as before.  During the feud with the main eventer basically everyone is looked at in a higher light, it is just natural.

 

But back to the point, I assume then you are saying Flair helped "remake" funk not make him, am I correct?

Basically. Funk's late career renaissance was due, largely, to the Flair program. It helped show that Funk COULD still work.

-=Mike

I think what Mike is saying is that Funk was not seen as a contender and Flair having Funk piledrive him on the table turned him instantly into the no.1 heel in the company. He didn't necessarily make Funk, he just made him relevent again.

[Guest brethart]

Flair is perhaps one of the most charismatic wrestlers ever. My main gripe is the fact people go on about how he is the greatest wrestler ever, when he is far from it. Ric Flair taking the title back all the time killed the babyfaces heat. (This was especially true with Sting. He put him over so what? That doesnt mean he should go ahead and take the title off him again.)

 

If Foley is a attention Whore. Flair is the biggest slut in wrestling. He cant retire because he needs the attention.

 

Ric Flair fans have been worked into falling for the hype. I think its time we rethought Ric Flairs legacy.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

Funk was seem in a higher light during their feud in 1989 because Flair and him were in main events  But, after the feud he was viewed as a Texas legend, the same as before.  During the feud with the main eventer basically everyone is looked at in a higher light, it is just natural.

 

But back to the point, I assume then you are saying Flair helped "remake" funk not make him, am I correct?

Basically. Funk's late career renaissance was due, largely, to the Flair program. It helped show that Funk COULD still work.

-=Mike

Just as quick side note:

 

Hey, Mike, what does the SC in your name stand for?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I think the SC stands for South Carolina.

[Guest Loss]

Flair is perhaps one of the most charismatic wrestlers ever. My main gripe is the fact people go on about how he is the greatest wrestler ever, when he is far from it. Ric Flair taking the title back all the time killed the babyfaces heat. (This was especially true with Sting. He put him over so what? That doesnt mean he should go ahead and take the title off him again.)

Flair had to push to pass the torch to Sting. Herd wanted him to do it to Luger sooner, but he argued that he should wait on Sting to get back from his injury. He only won the title back because Sting wasn't drawing and they had to get the belt off of him. Flair was the only established draw the company had, so they went back to him and told him if he'd play the Black Scorpion at Starrcade to save the angle, they'd put the belt back on him. Houses when he faced Sting and Luger at the time were still low, but strangely, he drew against El Gigante, perhaps just because people wanted him in new matches.

 

If Foley is a attention Whore. Flair is the biggest slut in wrestling. He cant retire because he needs the attention.

 

No doubt.

 

Ric Flair fans have been worked into falling for the hype. I think its time we rethought Ric Flairs legacy.

 

I've already re-thought it. Instead of considering him the greatest wrestler who ever lived, I now consider him the one of the best, a legend, and one of the most important wrestlers of the past 20 years.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

I think the SC stands for South Carolina.

Exactly. I understand and recognize many of his points, but he seems stubbornly biased in his stance towards Flair. He made everyone he ever wrestled, and did so in immaculate fashion. Its simply not true. Flair didn't make Funk. I never even knew they had a "memorable" match until a few years ago, and I've always held Funk in a high regard. We've always held Flair in the highest regard because of his legendary matches, and perceived benevolence with his colleagues. There have always been subtle and shushed whispers questioning his work, attitude, and legendary status. Now that there are wrestlers railing against him, some are getting outrageously defensive of Flair's work.

 

Lets put it this way:

 

Flair's work in the 80's was amazing for its time. Each move made sense, and it meant something. A sleeperhold meant as much as a DDT today. But in the 90's, things changed. Hart moved faster, was more versatile, and his moveset was far more extensive. Its up to the fans to say which style they prefer. I think most casual fans, when they are not trying to be pretentious, would say Hart because he simply gives you a whole lot more bang for his buck. He's flashier, crisper, and faster than Flair was. If he wrestles a 60 minute match, the fans know he won't be laying on the ground for half of it holding an arm bar.

 

Flair helped many out in the 80's, but again, that is something only hardcore fans know about. I don' deny it happening, but it certainly didn't shake the wrestling landscape. Bret's work helped develop actual concrete stars who carried over for years. I just don't see any long term benefits of Flair "making" ted Dibiase.

[BHK 0]

If Bret would have stayed retained the title at SS and thereafter, the heat surrounding Hart/Austin blowoff at Wrestlemania XIV would have made the crowd during Rock.Hogan look like a joke.

Except that Bret was already not the most over heel in the company by this point. Heat would've been hurt noticeably by then.

They could have had AUstin go thorugh the entire Hart Foundation at the December-February PPvs, all just to get to hart. It would have been Brilliant.

Austin v Neidhart would've been a good PPV match?

Bret would have single handedly over a period of two years given the biggest rub possible to a man that would become the biggest star in the business since Hogan.

Who's to say he would've done the job? He never did the job to him before.

Not to mention that judging by two previous encounters it could have been the greatest match  in US history.

Their THIRD PPV encounter was nothing special.

-=Mike

1) But Survivor Seroes, no, he wasn't, the build up to a title chase program could have possibly gotten him more over again. He could regain his heat in the months leading up till Wrestlemania

 

2) You're right, it wouldn't. I was thinking Austin/Smith at its time, Austin vs. Pillman at the rumble(which in itself could be a blowoff to a mini-feud, wait, was Pillman majorly inujured at this point, I can't recall) Then at Final Four Austin vs. Neidhart/Owen as Bret's last attempt to foil him, with Owen working most of the match, obviously.

 

3) True, I can't prove to you he'd do the Job. But you can't prove that he wouldn't have. So I guess neither of us can be correct on this one. In my personal opinion, he'd have done it just to spite Michaels and the fact that he refused to put him over the year prior. But, as I said, I'll admit I have no proof.

 

4) Yes, I'll agree with you here. It wasn't. However, if they could put on two ***** matches, I'd be fairly confident they could od it again. That's like saying you didn't think Flair/Steamboat at Spring Stampeede 94 didn't have the potential to hit *****, just becaue one of their previous matches was lesser than the 89 series.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

Besides Montreal, when has Hart not wanted to put someone over? He even wanted Benoit to win the Owen tribute match.

[godthedog 0]

If he wrestles a 60 minute match, the fans know he won't be laying on the ground for half of it holding an arm bar.

actually, the first half of his iron match with shawn was spent lying on the ground holding a chinlock.

 

there's a chinlock spot in his iron match with owen, about halfway into the match, that lasts for SEVEN MINUTES. that's SEVEN. MINUTES. OF. PURE. CHINLOCK.

 

bret's only 60-minute match that remained compelling almost all the way through was with flair. the rest holds are kept fluid with the match, are kept interesting, & don't grind the match to a halt.

 

an iron man match pretty much dictates that a third of the match will be spent in an armbar (or doing sloppy brawling on the outside, if you're triple h). and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you know how to do it. flair knew how to do it better than bret did. bret had a habit of taking a hold or working a body part and dwelling in it for too long. flair was always doing something in a rest hold, and had a good sense of when to temporarily break it up with a little spot of escape or reversal or trying to work in a pin. bret would grab an armbar, and basically sit on it for 2-4 minutes. it's not how much you use a given hold, it's what you do with it. i LIKE the 15 minutes of headlockery in flair/steamboat, because they knew how to make it dramatic. bret didn't usually build that sense of drama or urgency in a rest hold. his strategy seemed to just hold on to it idly to retain control of the match. even in his classic summerslam match with davey, they'll do a couple cool spots & bret will abruptly cut it off with a 2-minute headlock where neither guy really does anything. then they'll go to another cool spot, and back to the headlock of not doing anything.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

El Gigante OWNS Ric Flair. He made Flair look like tens of thousands of dollars in their feud. He made Flair.

 

He also made The Undertaker. When you can put someone over big time wearing a nude muscle bodysuit, you are either Lou Thesz or a wrestling god.

 

 

That part of Flair's history is something that should not be overlooked. He got the rub of a lifetime from El.

 

Bret may have wrestled Diesel, but Diesel was no El.

 

 

 

I give the nod to Flair in this one.

[Guest brethart]

The thing is Flair fans seem to be suffering under the delusion that his matches are anything compared to Brets.

[Guest Loss]

Hardcores know about it, but if you really want to get technical, do today's wrestling fans remember much about Bret aside from Montreal? Just because the fanbase today has no memory of anything happening doesn't mean it was any less significant when it did happen.

 

As I said, Flair never "made" DiBiase. But what he did for him would be the equivalent of a wrestler turning HHH into the most loved wrestler in the company within one episode of RAW and HHH taking the company to another boom that would last 18 months or so.

 

The fact that only the hardcores know about it is not something that should be used against Flair. It's known because it happened, and the fans who watched at the time certainly knew about it, and not all of them were hardcores. Flair was not a part of the WWF's national expansion. He wasn't Hogan, and he was a distant second to Hogan for the entirety of his prime. You wouldn't find anyone to debate that.

 

But Flair has defended his title in front of crowds of 40,000+ against Kerry Von Erich, helped pioneer Starrcade, an idea so good it was later stolen and called Wrestlemania, headlining the show in a well-hyped main event, set an all-time TV ratings record in 1988 headlining the first Clash against Sting, broke his own record at Clash IX in a match that was the most watched wrestling match in US history for ten years against Terry Funk, headlined Wrestlemania VIII in front of nearly 68,000, was WCW's highest ratings draw for pretty much the entire time they were in business, is the #3 PPV draw of all time, behind only Hogan and Austin and typically drew big houses every time he hit the territories. The business model is different now, but Flair was a huge success within that model during the time he was the traveling champ. He's made an impact on wrestling, and considering that in every case mentioned, the guy made good money, had a long career or became a draw over time, I'd say his contributions were very significant.

 

I no longer think Flair is the best ever. I do still contend with anyone who argues that he held anyone down, simply because he never booked and Dusty, the head booker, hated him during that time. I don't contend that he was a two-faced asshole with serious self-confidence problems. I do contend that him winning the title as many times as he did was ever bad for business.

 

As with everything, it's not black and white, it's grey. And I really wish people would stop trying to pick sides on this.

[Guest Loss]

The thing is Flair fans seem to be suffering under the delusion that his matches are anything compared to Brets.

I challenge you to review all of the Flair/Steamboat matches and then all the Hart/Austin matches. Walk through them all, sequence by sequence and point out what works and what doesn't. I'd be interested in your findings, and I'm sure everyone else would be too.

 

If you're going to say stuff like this, you should back it up.

[caboose 0]

Austin vs. Pillman at the rumble(which in itself could be a blowoff to a mini-feud, wait, was Pillman majorly injured at this point, I can't recall).

Unfortunately, Pillman died in October of 1997.

 

By the way, Loss is now my favourite WWE Folder poster. Hero to us all.

[Guest brethart]

The thing is Flair fans seem to be suffering under the delusion that his matches are anything compared to Brets.

I challenge you to review all of the Flair/Steamboat matches and then all the Hart/Austin matches. Walk through them all, sequence by sequence and point out what works and what doesn't. I'd be interested in your findings, and I'm sure everyone else would be too.

 

If you're going to say stuff like this, you should back it up.

Sorry i am not going to do that. I consider the Steamboat matches great becuae Steamboat was in them. If Steamboat and Bret had a fued there match would've of blown away anything Steamboat did with Flair.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Why not backup what your saying with some facts, some tidbits of the match? You're just spouting crap right now.

[Guest brethart]

What are you on about? I am just telling the truth. Others see greatness in Flair. I dont see it myself. Tell me one lie i have told? I am not going to run through the Steamboat Ric Flair matches simply because there greatness is not due to Flair. The fact that Flair wrestles the same match night in night out is enough back up for my statement.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

You aren't backing your opinion up. You say all of these things but you don't explain why? That's spouting crap to me. I need more than Flair never had a match as good as Bret. Tell me why, maybe then people will see things your way.

[Guest brethart]

I have aready explaned my reasons why Go back, and read my posts.

 

Ok name me one great match on the Ric Flair DVD that doesnt have Steamboat Or Windham on it?

 

All Flair does during those matches is flip about on the ropes, and prat around. His selling is clownish. His only does about 5 diffrent moves max. He ignores body parts that have been worked on so he can run about on the ropes. He stands on the ropes waiting to be thrown. I have gone over this beofre. You cant deny that these are facts.

[Guest Loss]

Ok, there's a Bret/Steamboat match from 1986 that's available on video. Find it and watch it.

 

Then, find a Flair/Steamboat match, take your pick. Then compare the two.

 

If you want to find other common opponents, there's always Sting, Luger, Hall, Michaels, Austin, Benoit, Misawa, Funk, Vader, Savage, Waltman, Jarrett, Lawler and Hennig, among many others I'm sure.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I have aready explaned my reasons why Go back, and read my posts.

 

Ok name me one great match on the Ric Flair DVD that doesnt have Steamboat  Or  Windham on it?

Barry Windham......guess you were wrong again.

[Guest Loss]

How ridiculous. So basically, if we take all the great matches off of the Flair DVD, there are no great matches left.

 

Surprise, surprise.

[Guest brethart]

How ridiculous. So basically, if we take all the great matches off of the Flair DVD, there are no great matches left.

 

Surprise, surprise.

Nah there are plenty of shity matches with Sting Dusty Funk on there. (Sting and Funk where decent, its only Flair that let the matches down.)

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I have aready explaned my reasons why Go back, and read my posts.

 

Ok name me one great match on the Ric Flair DVD that doesnt have Steamboat Or Windham on it?

 

All Flair does during those matches is flip about on the ropes, and prat around. His selling is clownish. His only does about 5 diffrent moves max. He ignores body parts that have been worked on so he can run about on the ropes. He stands on the ropes waiting to be thrown. I have gone over this beofre. You cant deny that these are facts.

What kind of argument is that? A handful of matches out of an almost 30 year career is enough to judge how good or bad someone is?

[Guest brethart]

Ok, there's a Bret/Steamboat match from 1986 that's available on video. Find it and watch it.

 

Then, find a Flair/Steamboat match, take your pick. Then compare the two.

 

If you want to find other common opponents, there's always Sting, Luger, Hall, Michaels, Austin, Benoit, Misawa, Funk, Vader, Savage, Waltman, Jarrett, Lawler and Hennig, among many others I'm sure.

I am getting a bit annoyed here. What i am saying is all these matches where not that great. Certainly not becuase of Flair. I enjoyed the Steamboat Flair fued, but that was before i saw loads of Flair matches. I dont think i would enjoy rewatching them. I am sure you believe those are 5 star matches in your mind, but i dobut most od them will reach 3 stars.