Benoit vs HHH Ironman match thread

[Guest JRE]

I can see 'em doing HHH/Edge...Title vs. Title...In Toronto, playing up Edge attending WMVI with Hogan/Warrior- Title vs. Title.

 

...But really, there isn't enough time to build that in a satisfactory way

[Guest SoZe]

....Yeah. If you knew the answer already, why did you ask?  That's like asking if Ric Flair can go for 60 minutes.

Um yeah, I already said I forgot about that one. And a Rumble is a bit different, you don't have to remain the sole focus of the match in the rumble. He was the focal point in the beginning, and the end. In the middle he was there. And surely even you would admit that an Iron Man is a bit different than a Royal Rumble, no??

 

I forgot about the Rumble in a moment of stupidity, I admitted that. I was trying to think about his longest one on one matches. Thirty is about the longest match he's had that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong let me know about it, I'd like to know. And Benoit went the distance in the Rumble, and he was impressive in that. Going 60 in the Rumble, and not going much over 30 in any other singles match had me wondering how he would adjust to iron match format. It's not at all like asking if someone (Flair) who has gone 60 minutes dozens of times already, could do it again. I know you wanted to seem all cool like there, but it's totally different. That was a lame comparison.

[Australian Pride 0]

Say this match ends in a draw and the title declared vacant (as mentioned earlier), would they go down the Survivor Series 98 path and have a tournament at SummerSlam?

You could have either an 8 man set-up or just the final 4, which would allow Evolution to screw Benoit in the semi-finals and set up Egde/HHH for the title match. Maybe throw in a swerve that kicks HHH out of Evolution and installs Edge as top heel and world champ and it opens up a few new opportunites.

The major problem with this is that SummerSlam is a joint production and not just a Raw PPV, but otherwise this could of been an interesting concept.

[4hartthreat 0]

Well I think everyone here knows Eugene will be involved in this match as it will be his screw you HHH I'm not leaving the WWE statement. This can't possibly be the time for the "hey I'm not really a retard" turn, it's too soon and fresh off the beating from Evolution which will likely garner him more sympathy than ever.

 

I see three possible outcomes for this match.

 

The much mentioned draw leading to a rematch at SSlam.

 

Eugene running out and costing HHH the title yet again. I find this unlikely since they JUST did this at Vengeance. It would be my choice of the three though.

 

Eugene running down and costing Benoit the title ON ACCIDENT. Everyone here has talked about Eugene turning and costing Benoit the title, but like I said I don't see him turning yet, but no one has mentioned what I think is the most likely scenario which is with time running out and the score tied, Eugene runs down to the ring furious at HHH and attacks him getting Benoit DQed and giving HHH the title.

 

I think the more interesting thing about this match is what comes AFTER it. I already said I didn't think they could do do Trips-Benoit at Vengeance and then sell it as a big match at SSlam too. But I KNOW they can't have it again between the two and an ironman match to boot and still have it be the big match at Slam. So what will this match mean for SSlam?

 

As I said, if it goes to draw you have to do the rematch at Slam, but I think that idea is horrible and the WWE shouldn't even consider pulling that bullshit on the fans.

 

If H wins things definately get interesting. If Eugene costs Benoit the title, you can sell a Benoit-H match as a chance for the wrongs against Benoit to be righted. But that also leaves open the window for the often talked about H-Edge title match in Edge's hometown.

 

If Benoit retains I honestly can't see anyway for the WWE to sell Trips as a serious contender for the title. He would HAVE to go back down after two shots in a less than month span. That doesn't mean he will, but he definately should. I would like to see Benoit retain and then HHH focus his anger on Eugene and face him at SSlam which honestly has been built up better than any other possible match for the card, and free Benoit up to defend against someone else, hopefully Jericho, maybe Orton.

[Guest Coffey]

Well, I supposed Summerslam could turn into an Elimination Chamber?

 

Triple H

Chris Benoit

Eugene

Randy Orton

Edge

...and Batista?

[Just call me Dan 0]

Well, I supposed Summerslam could turn into an Elimination Chamber?

 

Triple H

Chris Benoit

Eugene

Randy Orton

Edge

...and Batista?

This is what pretty much happened last year. You had 6 guys who were having strings of matches together and could each have feuded on the side. you also had guys who were in between feuds with more than one person. It makes perfect sense.

 

I could see Benoit winning clean Monday to keep him strong, and have him drop the title at the EC to Trips without being pinned by him, to keep him strong for another feud later in the year or around rumble time.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm glad to see this thread doing well.

 

 

Benoit has gone 60 minutes in nontelevised tag team Stampede matches.

 

He went 4o some minutes against Villano III in early 92. The tape of the match doesn't feature the whole match however.

 

He went 30 against El Samurai on 7/7/95 which is one of the best examples of conditioning I've ever seen in the ring.

 

Besides that Benoit has never wrestled many times over the 30 minute mark. Really the only singles match I know of is the one against Villano III.

[Guest commie_050]

As for the aftermath:

 

I like the scenario of Eugene returning to cost HHH the title yet again, which could lead inevitably to a much hyped SS encounter between the two. I don't think Eugene is ready to contend for the belt just yet, but a non-title match with stips chosen by HHH (no DQ, Street Fight, or something along those lines) could be a winner. Especially if the announcers and the heels play up the fact that Eugene doesn't have a chance. He could take a vicious beating, but refuse to lay down until the very end. If done right (which is, of course, in the WWE a very big if) this could be the angle to catapult Eugene from a comedy sideshow to a serious draw. It would also allow for a great degree of character development, pointing Eugene perhaps in the direction of face Mankind (before he became a comedy character), a naive manchild with considerable physical strength but a acute susceptability to the cerebral machinations of heels. Summerslam could be his message to the world, that despite his mental deficiencies, he is a wrestler to be reckoned with.

 

Which leaves the World Title picture to be filled with the most logical match-up: a face vs. face encounter between Edge and Benoit. Given that the PPV takes place in Edge's hometown, and Benoit is next to Bret Hart in the pantheon of Canadien heroes, the match should draw considerable heat from the crowd, and be fine wrestling-wise. This better plays on the Warrior-Hogan comparison mentioned earlier. Benoit can give Edge the match he needs to become a believable main event player. Moreover, a face vs. face feud can continue the tease of an Edge heel turn which seems to inevitable. A title loss in his hometown would be a reasonable place to begin the transfomation.

 

Two quality Raw main events for SummerSlam, both of which provide the opportunity for major heat and a decent amount of snowflakes. I'd buy.

[Australian Pride 0]

Besides that Benoit has never wrestled many times over the 30 minute mark. Really the only singles match I know of is the one against Villano III.

Dont forget Ultimate Submission against Kurt Angle in 2001. This had a 30 minute time limit and went into OT.

And the next month at Judgement Day he wrestled 2/3 falls vs Angle and then partnered Jericho in the Tag Turmoil match.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Besides that Benoit has never wrestled many times over the 30 minute mark. Really the only singles match I know of is the one against Villano III.

Dont forget Ultimate Submission against Kurt Angle in 2001. This had a 30 minute time limit and went into OT.

And the next month at Judgement Day he wrestled 2/3 falls vs Angle and then partnered Jericho in the Tag Turmoil match.

Yeah, Benoit's often wrestled more than 1 time in a night in New Japan, WCW and the WWE.

[CanadianChick 0]

I really have no idea how they're going to do this. I really, truly don't want Eugene a part of this. Absence makes the heart fonder, so let the character get a month break or more.

 

This isn't a good situation if they want a HHH vs. Benoit match at Summerslam. If it is a screwy finish, the crowd wouldn't be very happy, and neither would the rest of the fans. If Benoit wins clean, what possible reason could be given to give HHH a rematch? If HHH wins clean, why would Benoit get a rematch, either than a rematch clause on his contract, or something like that?

 

I just don't see how having Benoit and HHH wrestle each other three times in one month could be good. That being said, quality wise, I'm looking forward to the match. As for the result and post-match happenings? Not so much.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I say HHH loses due to Eugene, which lead to Eugene/HHH at SummerSlam. This HAS to be the blowoff. The second worst possible thing to do is do a screwjob non-finish to make this match useless. The absolute worst is to have a winner and a loser (not nec. clean, but like the Vengence match) and STILL have them face at Summer Slam.

[Promoter 0]

I think we might have to expect some storytelling of other things to set up SummerSlam. I just hope they don't go overboard with the overbooking of this match. We know it's not going to be a clean finish regardless as its a tv rule that matchs like this never end up clean(one time I wish I get amjorly swerved). I'll just take in the good amount of wrestling that should take place in the match.

 

Well, I see Edge has taken out all of Evolution thus far ALONG with Benoit. What if Edge costs Triple H the match and we get Edge/Benoit title for title and they play up Edge watching Hogan/Warrior title for title at WM 6? I don't think Benoit/HHH is going to happen again at the ppv. They wouldn't give this away. It could also set up Trips/Edge if Trips goes over.

 

I was thinking another scenario of Trips/Edge for the I-C title, while Orton gets a shot at Benoit's title. Orton takes the world title shot over the leader, while HHH retaliates by stating he will topple the man who defeated Orton for the I-C title to prove he is the leader? This may be too soon though.

[iggymcfly 0]

Well, the Ironman match is going on at the beginning of the show for a reason. I'm pretty sure that they know Benoit and HHH can't headline another PPV, and they want to be able to start the Summerslam ME feud on the second half of Raw.

 

Obviously, HHH/Edge is the logical ME, with Benoit maybe feuding with Batista while he waits to get back to the title. Still though, it doesn't seem that exciting to me to see Edge "finally" ending HHH's three-week title reign as a main event of Summerslam, so I say they'd be better off letting Trips win, and then doing the Elimination Chamber, with Edge trying to shut down Evolution, Benoit trying to get his title back, HHH looking to retain, Batista and Orton kind of watching his back, but also wanting the belt for themselves, and maybe Eugene or Jericho thrown in on top.

Even with that though, Kane/HBK would be the only major supporting match, and the IC Champ would be inside the EC.

 

I don't know. I still can't see any one scenario that quite makes sense, as the Raw side of Summerslam. I guess I'll just have to tune in live at 9, 8 central, and see where they go with this.

 

Oh, and as for the actual Iron Man match, I'm psyched. Barring a ridiculously overbooked finish, I think this should be the MOTY right here. I'd certainly like to see a clean finish, but if I were to guess, I'd say they probably do the Rock/HHH finish where Eugene (Undertaker) comes out and attacks Benoit (The Rock), giving HHH (HHH) the final victory by DQ.

[4hartthreat 0]

I'd certainly like to see a clean finish, but if I were to guess, I'd say they probably do the Rock/HHH finish where Eugene (Undertaker) comes out and attacks Benoit (The Rock), giving HHH (HHH) the final victory by DQ.

Yeah, that's what I said I thought the finish would likely be earlier, but in your comparison thing you screwed up a little. Eugene wouldn't attack Benoit (Rock) because that would lead to HHH getting DQed and cause Benoit to win and retain, not HHH.

[BHK 0]

I'd certainly like to see a clean finish, but if I were to guess, I'd say they probably do the Rock/HHH finish where Eugene (Undertaker) comes out and attacks Benoit (The Rock), giving HHH (HHH) the final victory by DQ.

Yeah, that's what I said I thought the finish would likely be earlier, but in your comparison thing you screwed up a little. Eugene wouldn't attack Benoit (Rock) because that would lead to HHH getting DQed and cause Benoit to win and retain, not HHH.

That'd be pretty lame to recycle a finisah from a previous Ironman match, I can totally see them doing that, though.

 

the only real problem I have with this is that the Ironman match is supossed to be, like HIAC, the ultimate blowoff. A good example of this is the Rock/Triple H Ironman. Watch the "one hour" promo video fro that match, it's brilliant stuff. The build to Rock/Triple H was also done well.

 

The problem with this match is that Triple H had more been feuding with friend Shawn Michaels than Benoit. There's no deepset hatred here. Triple H hasn't been constanly trying to take Benoit out ever since WM 20, it just doesn't deserve an Ironman match right now.

 

I'm not going to complain that much thouygh, seeing as I'll see it live and uncut.

[Guest CronoT]

I think what would really rock would be if Benoit did another "10-in-a-row" German Suplex fest. That's one of the most memorable things from the Austin/Benoit feud, so it would be a nice way to cap this Iron Man match.

[Guest JerichosHi-Lite]

For once I don't actually care who wins. I'm a big fan of both Benoit and Triple H. I'd like to see Benoit hold it a bit longer, but as long as Triple H's improvement continues, maybe he could be a good champ. And I could see both men winning, for some reason. I'm looking forward to it. Ironman match with Benoit and Willing-To-Job-Or-Tap Triple H Version 2004 should be awesome. It could top Angle/Lesnar in October, which is my second-favourite match of 2003.

 

So long as Eugene stays the hell away from this, I'm grand

[Promoter 0]

I was wondering if the wwe didn't promote it as an ironman match, but just a regular match with it going the marathon it would be more surprising?

[BHK 0]

I was wondering if the wwe didn't promote it as an ironman match, but just a regular match with it going the marathon it would be more surprising?

no, two reasons:

 

1) Part of the fun is that you know they're going to go an hour, so more people would tune in(or tune out, depending on how much they want to see wrestling).

 

2) another large part of the Iron man match, as evidenced in brock angle, is the strategic use of falls. one could take a DQ to get two quick pins, among numerous other scenarios and ways the scoring system can be used.

 

There are also advantages to them jsut going the hour without the advertising, but I personally find the Ironman format better.

[Guest Champ]

I smell a DRAW! In all seriousness this is the way this is going to go since there are building towards Summerslam 04!

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I'd certainly like to see a clean finish, but if I were to guess, I'd say they probably do the Rock/HHH finish where Eugene (Undertaker) comes out and attacks Benoit (The Rock), giving HHH (HHH) the final victory by DQ.

Yeah, that's what I said I thought the finish would likely be earlier, but in your comparison thing you screwed up a little. Eugene wouldn't attack Benoit (Rock) because that would lead to HHH getting DQed and cause Benoit to win and retain, not HHH.

That'd be pretty lame to recycle a finisah from a previous Ironman match, I can totally see them doing that, though.

 

the only real problem I have with this is that the Ironman match is supossed to be, like HIAC, the ultimate blowoff. A good example of this is the Rock/Triple H Ironman. Watch the "one hour" promo video fro that match, it's brilliant stuff. The build to Rock/Triple H was also done well.

 

The problem with this match is that Triple H had more been feuding with friend Shawn Michaels than Benoit. There's no deepset hatred here. Triple H hasn't been constanly trying to take Benoit out ever since WM 20, it just doesn't deserve an Ironman match right now.

 

I'm not going to complain that much thouygh, seeing as I'll see it live and uncut.

The match at Judgment Day wasn't the ultimate blowoff though. They'd have a six man tag the next month and a triple threat match with Angle in the next three months.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think it's silly to do a "in one week" thing, because had they done "in two weeks.." they could have built more interest into the match. Last week they could have said "In two weeks HHH vs. Benoit in an Ironman" then this week they could have had Edge, Regal, Eugene (?) state their intentions to help Benoit while Evolution backs HHH. This gives a sense of "I must watch the whole match to see when each guy comes in and helps" rather than "I must watch the last 10 minutes cause that's the only ones that matter" - OR they could have revolved a series of storylines around the match that would play out in the match, thus giving the fans more reasons to watch it in-full.

 

That being said, I think it's pretty clear HHH vs. Edge is what they'll be going into SS with, given how quickly they've set up (a)Edge vs. Evolution and (b)the Ironman match and made the 9pm start time. Had they done the "in two weeks" thing, that would have cut into the more important HHH vs. Edge feud (cause lord knows Benoit is not important, especially since HHH/HBK HIAC got a MUCH bigger blow-off). The 9 o clock start time is important because obviously the winner of the Ironman isn't going to be the last thought in everyones mind; so they're going to end off this "huge raw" with a bang. Given that Edge has Flair and HHH to go, Edge vs. Flair as the last match where Edge beats him and then challenges HHH to a match at Summerslam, seems to be the appropriate "bang", where super-evil heel HHH who-just-celebrated-victory (and who we'll see a lot of throughtout the rest of the show) now gets met with his "biggest challenge" or "worst nightmare". Frying Pan/Fire, and a whole buncha stuff that makes Benoit look irrelevant. I can imagine Benoit/Orton at SS (which was mentioned before, and which I said would happen before Benoit even won the Royal Rumble) where Orton beats the guy HHH had so much trouble with and HHH loses to Edge and Orton begins his take over of Evolution and HHH starts his face turn (that's a lot of "ands"). After that for Benoit? Smackdown, probably.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I think it's silly to do a "in one week" thing, because had they done "in two weeks.." they could have built more interest into the match.  Last week they could have said "In two weeks HHH vs. Benoit in an Ironman" then this week they could have had Edge, Regal, Eugene (?) state their intentions to help Benoit while Evolution backs HHH.  This gives a sense of "I must watch the whole match to see when each guy comes in and helps" rather than "I must watch the last 10 minutes cause that's the only ones that matter" - OR they could have revolved a series of storylines around the match that would play out in the match, thus giving the fans more reasons to watch it in-full. 

 

That being said, I think it's pretty clear HHH vs. Edge is what they'll be going into SS with, given how quickly they've set up (a)Edge vs. Evolution and (b)the Ironman match and made the 9pm start time.  Had they done the "in two weeks" thing, that would have cut into the more important HHH vs. Edge feud (cause lord knows Benoit is not important, especially since HHH/HBK HIAC got a MUCH bigger blow-off).  The 9 o clock start time is important because obviously the winner of the Ironman isn't going to be the last thought in everyones mind; so they're going to end off this "huge raw" with a bang.  Given that Edge has Flair and HHH to go, Edge vs. Flair as the last match where Edge beats him and then challenges HHH to a match at Summerslam, seems to be the appropriate "bang", where super-evil heel HHH who-just-celebrated-victory (and who we'll see a lot of throughtout the rest of the show) now gets met with his "biggest challenge" or "worst nightmare".  Frying Pan/Fire, and a whole buncha stuff that makes Benoit look irrelevant.  I can imagine Benoit/Orton at SS (which was mentioned before, and which I said would happen before Benoit even won the Royal Rumble) where Orton beats the guy HHH had so much trouble with and HHH loses to Edge and Orton begins his take over of Evolution and HHH starts his face turn (that's a lot of "ands").  After that for Benoit?  Smackdown, probably.

Basically Rudo, me and some friends(who will be going to RAW for the ironman) were talking about this and you made the points that I made during the convo. I did think that after they announced that it would be on at 9 o' clock instead of the Main Event timeslot, that something else major is going to have to happen at the end of the show because in essence.....there would be no main event. By main event I don't mean match, I mean more of a "big ending" to the show.

 

p.s. - Congrats on becoming a Mod.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I think that announcing the time is a calculated gamble. There'll be a ratings increase for the opening of the match and for the end, with the drawing coming down a bit in the middle. I don't anticipate that drop being as large as some are making it out to be, after all it IS a World Title match with a high probobility of a title change on Free TV. Even better, because it's on RAW and so the victor will be a surprise to even the "smart" crowd.

 

I honestly don't think they needed another week to build to this, they'd just spent a month building the storylines that make up the match, another week really doesn't matter- especially since they pulled the angle with Batista last week.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But the WWE fan knows that the "good stuff" won't happen at Minute 30, but rather at Minute 55, 56, 57, etc. So why watch Minute 30? This isn't a PPV, so they can afford to change the channel and periodically tune back in to see if anything happened or is happening. Had the WWE given them a sense of "anything can happen at anytime" that would have kept them watching throughout. Every segment needs to give the fan some gratification for watching -as well as a promise for future gratification-, and it won't be pinfalls that'll get them off because pinfalls only matter at the end of the match when the drama heightens and desperation sets in.

 

Hell, what is the story of this match? They've "spent a month building" it, so what is the story? "HHH will do anything to get the belt that Benoit has"? What makes this different from the billion other HHH-centric feuds? Why would there be interest in this match that wouldn't be there for a regular match? With Shawn/Bret, despite being a bit of a snorefest, they had some excellent build with their respective training sessions and approaches to the Ironman match. It gave the match some weight. This? It has nothing to it. Right now mostly everything is unsaid and they wasted an opportunity to grab the fans.

Edited July 22, 2004 by RavishingRickRudo

[Just call me Dan 0]

Even though it may sound anti-climatic to have HHH/Edge at SS w/ Edge winning, it would actually make sense booking wise. Edge already unseated Orton (the long time champ). HHH has been clamoring for his belt for so long and talking about how it is his. He needs to somehow get past Benoit to get his confidence back, but then Edge makes that blow right up in his face when he takes the title immidiately at Summerslam. You have Edge who's pretty much taken everything from Evolution be a transitional champ for about three months where Benoit can stay a contender for a month, Orton can regain the vacant IC title and get his shot at Edge's belt, and HHH will probably take the thing at SS.

 

This gives us three champs for the year and Trips can say he is a 10 time champ (or is it 11?) without keeping a stronghold on the title all year.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

But the WWE fan knows that the "good stuff" won't happen at Minute 30, but rather at Minute 55, 56, 57, etc. So why watch Minute 30? This isn't a PPV, so they can afford to change the channel and periodically tune back in to see if anything happened or is happening. Had the WWE given them a sense of "anything can happen at anytime" that would have kept them watching throughout. Every segment needs to give the fan some gratification for watching -as well as a promise for future gratification-, and it won't be pinfalls that'll get them off because pinfalls only matter at the end of the match when the drama heightens and desperation sets in.

 

Hell, what is the story of this match? They've "spent a month building" it, so what is the story? "HHH will do anything to get the belt that Benoit has"? What makes this different from the billion other HHH-centric feuds? Why would there be interest in this match that wouldn't be there for a regular match? With Shawn/Bret, despite being a bit of a snorefest, they had some excellent build with their respective training sessions and approaches to the Ironman match. It gave the match some weight. This? It has nothing to it. Right now mostly everything is unsaid and they wasted an opportunity to grab the fans.

I think even with your scenario you'd have drop off in the middle, in this day and age very little would entice people to go through a 60 minute match the whole way through. Plus, the match really should be kept as free of run-ins as possible.

 

As far as I can tell the stories leading up to this match have been:

 

1. HHH had bided his time since Backlash and at Vengeance had come up with a plan to take away Benoit's title from him...

 

2. This plan hinged on the manipulation of Eugene against Benoit, and so HHH befriended Eugene, which was important in the weeks leading to Vengeance...

 

3. But at the last minute the plan backfired, which led to Evolution's beatdown of Eugene...

 

4. Which delighted Bischoff so much that he gave HHH another shot at Benoit...

 

5. But angered Regal to the point where he could become a factor...

 

6. However, Evolution (via Batista) has softened up Benoit prior to the match, making it more difficult for him to overcome his challenger...

 

7. But Eugene could return to get his revenge

 

Those are the plot strands I see leading to this match. That's not even counting implied stuff like Edge's personal war against Evolution, and what not.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Not like it needs to be said but I'll say it anyways: Regardless of whether or not he is champ, HHH always has a stronghold on the title.

[Just call me Dan 0]

No disputing that, but I'd rather it not come off like that on TV all year with the guy actually HAVING the title on his shoulder.