Next guy to win the title...

[CanadianChick 0]

You make a good point that Edge/Orton could be Rock/HHH of 2004 but I also get the impression that Benjamin/Orton could be that type od feud as well.

Really, either one could be. All three of them will be the future, so I think we will see a ton of matches with that combo. I doubt that at any one time, all three will either all be heel, or all be face.

[Dark Age 0]

I always thought Cena vs Orton was the 'big one' that would carry the company for years to come. Not what I want to see, but they seem to be the two guys who are primed for superstardom.

[CanadianChick 0]

I always thought Cena vs Orton was the 'big one' that would carry the company for years to come. Not what I want to see, but they seem to be the two guys who are primed for superstardom.

Oh, for sure. But they seemed to be kept seperate. Neither one has had practically anythign to do with the other as of yet.

[redbaron29 0]

Cena is an awesome heel but a mediocre face. Obviously the reason why he's a face is to peddle tee shirts and albums.

 

So as far as the chosen ones go we got Cena, Orton, Edge, and Shelton.

 

What is the consensus on Haas, and Christain? Do you guys think they will attain the big one? Or are they both destined to become "That guy who was so and so's tag team partner" ala Marty Jannety.

 

 

And sense everyone seems to agree Orton/Cena is the "Big One" When so you think it will happen?

 

 

Also kidos to Dark Age for proving the Shelton point in a constructive way.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Cena's a face cause the fans turned him. His reactions were too big and it would have looked dumb to keep him heel.

[redbaron29 0]

No matter what the reason, it still doesn't change the fact that he is a one trick pony as a face, and in my humble opinion the charecter had way more demension as a heel.

[Dark Age 0]

The problem with WWE is that they notice heels getting big face reactions, so they turn them. Fair enough. However, once they go face, WWE changes the character of said superstar. They no longer have the 'edge' that made the fans care about them so much in the first place. Cena seems to be an exception, but look at Matt Hardy. Big face reactions as a heel, turns face, loses his edge, crowd isn't that interested in him.

 

Cena as a face would be GREAT..... if they let him keep his edge. Rock, when he turned face in 99, didn't lose it. He was still a heel in theory, but he was put in face situations. He still made fun of the crowd, yet they loved him for it. It's why he ept getting more and more over. Cena sucks up to the crowd, and it's, eventually, going to cost him. Hav ehim go heel, let him keep the reactions, just don't worry about it. Gradually, turn him face again, but don't change his character or his attitude. Use Rocky 99 as the prototype.

[Guest Dumb Fuck]

Should be - Cena... because he's insanely over.

 

Will be - Edge... because WWE knows what's best for us, even though the markish fans are apathetic about him since his return.

[Guest krazykat72]

Eddie is more over than Cena.

No, I don't think he is. I love Eddy as much as the next guy, but Cena is solidly more popular. He's a better guy to build around as well due to his age. I'd like to see Eddy get the strap again and have a big feud with Cena, with Cena being fully elevated by the end of it.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Dark Age 0]

No, he isn't.

 

Cena's fine for the crowd to cheer in his 3 minutes squashes on SmackDown!. Watch the pay per views, the shows that matter. Eddie got bigger pops in his 2 matches against JBL than Cena did in his matches with Dupree and Co. What's more, Eddie sustains the crowd support throughout the match. Put Cena in a 15 minute match with JBL, and you will get NOWHERE NEAR the amount of heat that was in both JBL/Eddie matches, particularly the JD match. If we are going from Rumble, when both guys seemed to really got pushed: Eddie got a bigger pop in the SD Rumble show, his promos against Brock got MUCH bgger responses than any Cena promo has in forever, at No Way Out, Eddie's reaction SMOKED Cena's. Next show, Eddie's reaction blew Cena's away again (the celebration). Since Mania, Eddie's pops have gone down, but that's due to how he's been booked. He's been feuding with a midcarder. He jobbed to D-Von Dudley. He's had to carry the show on his back. Of course he's going to lose some overness.

 

Like I said, intro pops mean nothing in regard to the reaction you get during the match. The reasion I believe Benoit is the most over guy on Raw is because of how he can bring the crowd into a match, regardless of his intro pop. Benoit doesn't always get a big pop for his entrance. Eddie has both the huge pop for his entrance, and sustained crowd heat throughout his match. When Cena can really get the crowd into his comeback, really bring them into a match as much as Eddie can, then talk about him being more over.

 

Also, keep in mind that Cena has been HEAVILY protected all year. He NEVER jobs, wrestles squashes most of the time, sucks up to the crowd, etc. Eddie DOES job, has to wrestle 20 minute matches with JBL, doesn't suck up to the crowd, etc.

 

Age isn't everything. I don't know for sure, but what's Eddie? 35? 36? That's not too old. I would be more concerned about his past drug problems catching up on him, not his age. How you can bring age into the question when Eddie has been having as many great matches as ever this year (Brock, Angle, Rey, and getting something good out of JBL) is weird to me. Eddie's not that old. He has years left.

 

Moreso, popularity isn't everything. It's a very important thing, but not everything. hat must be taken into account is how good they are in the ring (Eddie's better than Cena by FAR), whether they can make their opponents look good (Cena can't, Eddie can), if they draw (granted, no one really draws these days, but Eddie's a big draw in the hispanic market, I don't know about Cena), and other things.

 

Other than popularity and age, why would you see Cena as a better guy to build the show around?

[Guest krazykat72]

Cena's drawing bigger ratings recently as well and Guerrero's body is breaking down(hamstrings, various nagging injuries). Workrate is not the #1 thing in making a superstar. Obviously Eddy's is 10x the wrestler of Cena, but Cena has far more upside at this point, and so what if he's protected? That's what you're supposed to do to guys you're going to push. Cena can;t make opponents look good? Then throw him in there with opponents who can mask that (Guerrero, Angle) and he'll probably get better. Cena is passable in the ring with the potential to be good. He connects well with the people and can potentially anchor the company for awhile. They should push him to the title at WM 21, while going over Eddy, JBL, Angle and finally UT (the four are interchangable in the order in which he does it, but it would have some juice for him to end UT's streak).

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Dark Age 0]

I don't know the breakdown for all segments in terms of ratings, but I THINK Cena is drawing somewhere between 'jack' and 'shit' at the moment, just like everyone else. Tell me, where are these big ratings or buyrates that Cena has brought in?

 

Guerrero's body is NOT breaking down. He has a hamstring injury. It's not the end of the world. Give him a month off after SummerSlam, and when he returns he'll be more over than over. It's not rocket science.

 

Workrate IS the #1 thing in making a superstar. Granted, you don't have to be a super worker like Eddie or Benoit. And there are instances where guys who aren't good in the ring can be champ (Big Show, JBL, and that's about it. Note that both of Big Show's reigns were terrible, and I'll wait until JBL's reign is over to pass judgment) but it's rare. Big Show has the monster look, the personality, etc that made him the Champ. He sucked as champ, but he was champ none the less. Almost everyone else in recent years has been better in the ring than Cena, and those who aren't (Hogan and Show) had really quick reigns. At the end of the day, if you can't back it up in the ring, you should NOT under any circumstances be champion. You do NOT make someone the champ if he needs to be carried. Cena needs to be carried. The only guys who I think can get a good match out of him on SD are Eddie, Kurt or Taker. That's GOOD matches, not great. It would take something special from Eddie to get a great match out of Cena.

 

My point about Cena protected is that it affects his overness. If Eddie was half as protected as Cena, he'd be even MORE ove. I think Eddie's more over than Cena anyway, and that's despite being nowhere near as protected.

 

You say Cena has far more upside, but you don't say why. Why does he have far more upside? If you think it's because of popularity, you're wrong. Regardless of who's more over, you must admit that there is only a small gap (in terms of overness) between Eddie and Cena. Not enough to make a difference. Age? Eddie has years left in him. Injuries? Eddie's got a hamstring injury, and that's about all he's had since returning more than 2 years ago. So, what's Cena's upside?

 

You're supposed to protect guys if hey are getting pushed? Fair enough. Then why don;t they protect Eddie? Why did Eddie job to D-VON DUDLEY? Maybe because Eddie doesn't NEED protecting, and would stay over anyway? Whereas Cena would lose steam if he jobbed to a Dudley, or Bradshaw 4 times, Eddie stays over.

 

If Cena needs to be carried, he shouldn't be champion. It's that simple. It's only so long that you can protect him in matches with Eddie and Kurt. Sooner or later, he's gotta face JBL, Taker, RVD, Dupree, etc. THne he will be exposed BIG TIME. He's passable in the ring? Then why the hell make him the champion? You don't make passable wrestlers your world champion. Connecting well with the audience doesn't equal buyrates. Are they gonna sell Cena's title defenses him talking about poop? Or saying someone is constipated? Wow, brilliant mic skills there. None of Cena's promos can TOUCH Eddie's from his mini feud with Brock. None of them could sell a ppv like those promos (granted NWO didn't exactly sell). If he has potential, why not wait until he fulfills it? Don't put the title on potential. Like I said in the Orton thread, save Cena for in a few years time when you need him. Now, use Eddie, Angle, Booker, Taker, RVD and Show for all they are worth. In a few years time, some of thos eguys will be gone. Cena will still be here, still be over, will have and will have gotten better.

[Guest krazykat72]

As of the last Observer, from the beginning of the year Cena is averaging +224,182 per segment and Guerrero a +277,846. In recent weeks, Cena's been gaining steam and recently moved +563,000 on the Smackdown with the cage match which is a good gain. He's been picking up. He hasn't been killed in the fan's eyes and hasn't been labelled 'career mid carder' which until recently is something that hampered Benoit and Guererro.

Uhm, Hulk Hogan was one of, if not the most successful champions ever, and he wasn't exactly a paragon of workrate, now was he? Flair, a far better worker, drew *far, far* less. The reasons? 1. Hogan was protected as a total superstar and always made to look strong. Bruno Sammartino did the same thing. Billy Graham was a great drawing champion for the WWF and he was horrid in the ring. Steve Austin was a hell of a worker, but that's not what made him a great champion, it was the way he connected to the people and made his programs work. The same can be said about Rock.

Cena is young and will be a pillar. Like I said, put him with guys who can play to his strengths and mask his weaknesses and let him get better. I really believe Eddy's plateaud and Cena's stock is rising. No matter what you think, at 36, with the punishment he's taken and past history, Eddy is eventually going to break down. It was well known he was working hurt during a lot of his reign, but kept doing so because he had the belt.

I love Eddy, but I could care less about arguments that say "if he wasas protected"...the fact is, he wasn't, and be it lack of challengers (which was a big problem), the business being down period, the second rate feel of Smackdown, his reign wasn't a very successful one. It's time to build to the ascension of a popular, charismatic superstar who the people really like and who has trhe ability to get better as time goes on, and that's Cena.

Notice I didn't say put the title on him tomorrow, I said put him through Guerrero, Angle, JBL and 'Taker so he can get better in the ring and end up looking like a giant star at the end. The cumulative effect of 4 decisive feud wins and his charisma should put him more than over the top.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Dark Age 0]

It's not the 1980s. Wrestling is different. Would King Kong Bundy get over as a buyable challenger today, or would the fans accept him? No. It's different. You can't make Cena champion, then feed him a big fat heel every month, like with Hogan. It's different.

 

If Benoit and Guerrero were career mid carders, why are they main eventers now? Why was it that the fans DEMANDED Eddie be pushed. it's not like he was lingering in the mid card, and the WWE forced his push upon his. He NEEDED to be pushed.

 

I'd be interest in how much Eddie gained when Cena got that many. Also, I doubt No Way Out would have broken 200,000 buys if Cena was challenging instead of Eddie. Same with JD. Cena couldn;t make the feud with JBL work, Eddie could. They are just assumptions on my part, though.

 

Hogan was a very under-rated worker. Being the right man, in the right place, at the right time didn't hurt either. Like I said, 80s wrestling is an entirely different world to today. Put a character like Hulk Hogan at the top and it just won't work. Cena doesn't compare to Hogan.

 

You talk about Hogan being protected so much, but they can't do that in this day and age. WCW got Goldberg over by tearing the entire company down for him. Once the streak was over, the mid carders were dead. What do you want them to do with Cena, squash EVERY SINGLE wrestler?

 

Austin and Rock are ten times the worker Cena will over be. They are ALOT more charasmatic than Cena. They had MUCH better mic skills. They were MUCH more over. They had MUCH better characters. Cena will nevr touch either guy.

 

You're once again talking about disguising Cena's weaknesses, which is fine. However, when yuo biggest weakness is that you suck in the ring, it's kinda hard to hide. Trust me, there is only so long they can protect and disguise Cena.

 

Put Cena through Taker, Eddie, Angle and JBL? Do that with ANYONE and they'll be over. Do it with Eddie, and he'll be more over. Why is that so hard to understand? Cena has been used well, Eddie hasn't. Use Eddie as well as Cena, and Eddie will (he already is) be more over than Cena.

[Guest krazykat72]

Eddy's vage match gained 455,000 that week for the cage match.

Goldberg was the most well booked wrestler in WCW in the late 90's. That's how you build a superstar. It;s too late for them to do that with Cena, but they can put him over sthe top guys on Smackdown in a very strong manner and then do things (trades with RAW, building new stars) to give him challengers. Saying Cena couldn't draw 200,000 PPV buys is total hearsay. The 205,000 that Eddy vs. JBL drew for Judgement Day was the lowest in 7-8 years. Blame JBL all you want, but you have to put some on the champ.

 

"Austin and Rock are ten times the worker Cena will over be. They are ALOT more charasmatic than Cena. They had MUCH better mic skills. They were MUCH more over. They had MUCH better characters. Cena will nevr touch either guy."

 

That's ridiculous. Austin-he'll probably never get to his level, but Cena compares just fine with the late-97, early 98 Rock. He'll probably get better. It's called learning, and like Rock, you can get away with being decent-good rather than great if the people connect with you. Geez, what's with your hate of this guy. The people are really into him. He's very good on the stick and will onyl get better. And so what if he doesn't get to Austin/Rock level, no one is 15 years has been there being that they;re the 2 biggest stars since Hogan.

 

"You're once again talking about disguising Cena's weaknesses, which is fine. However, when yuo biggest weakness is that you suck in the ring, it's kinda hard to hide. Trust me, there is only so long they can protect and disguise Cena.

 

Put Cena through Taker, Eddie, Angle and JBL? Do that with ANYONE and they'll be over. Do it with Eddie, and he'll be more over. Why is that so hard to understand? Cena has been used well, Eddie hasn't. Use Eddie as well as Cena, and Eddie will (he already is) be more over than Cena. "

 

No, not anyone will be over. Not anyone can just be the guy. I'm one of the biggest Benoit fans out there, but hs charisma hurts his viability as being *the guy* for a really long period of time. Cena isn't awful. He's fine, he's not great or even very good, but that's why you put him with bette wrestlers, so he gets better. A prolonged program with Angle, Guerrero and he'll learn. He has good chemistry with 'Taker. Give him 6 straigh tmonths of feuding with them and I almost guarantee he'll come out much improved. They're not going todo it with Eddy. Period, it's not going to happen. You can say "if they did this, if they did that..." all day. Hopefully Eddy will stay healthy and be a top of the card guy for awhile, but he's never going to be "The Franchise" type guy. Cena at leat has a shot.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Dark Age 0]

I've just told you why Goldberg was a bad idea. They had to destory eveyone around him to get him over. That's why he couldn't get over in WWE. They were not willing to destroy everyone else JUST to get Goldberg over. They won't do it with Cena, and they shouldn't do it with Cena. It has short term gains. People will pay to see an unstoppable guy destory other main eventers in 5 minutes. In the long term, you hurt the whole roster around him. It doesn't work.

 

How about the fact that SmackDown! is at the worst point it's EVER been in? Maybe that contributed to low buyrates? Putting Cena in Eddie's position wouldn't change a thing. It still wouldn't draw.

 

Cena doesn't compare -at all- to Rocky in early 98. Rock will always have alt more charisma than Cena, and always has done. Tell me the last good Cena promo? Or does he simply get by on catchphrases, sucking up to the city, and making toilet jokes? He has shown ZERO improvement in his in-ring work this year. He's had one really good match (at best) in his career, with Kurt Angle. Your comparing a guy who has been in the company for 2 years to a guy who had been around (half of it injured) the company for one year. If we are using the Cena-Rock comparisons, Cena should be at Rock Jan 99 levels. He isn't anywhere near that. Keep in mind Cena is, what, 28 or 29? Rock was alot younger. Rock also went pretty much straight into WWE from the start of his career. Cena has been in OVW and UPW. He should be better than he is at this point. And Rock was better than decent - good.

 

People are into him. Yeah, they should be. When he comes out wearing the local sports team's jersey, sucking up the crowd, ripping into his opponent then squashing him in minutes, he SHOULD be over. How is he good on the mic? I would have agreed with you last year, but this year he hasn't cut one good promo. He hasn't cut one decent promo. All he has going for him is that he's over. This year, he's been terrible in the ring, terrible on the mic, had a terrible character, and has just been flat out terrible. It's a complete contrast to last year. I was one of his biggest fans then.

 

If Benoit's lack of charisma hurts him, doesn't Cena's lack of in-ring skills hurt him? You can't something about one guy, but use different rules for another. Benoit's in-ring skills are enough to carry him by, regardless of his lack of (debatable) charisma. Cena's mic skills can NOT carry him by.

 

I agree with you, Cena WILL be a star. But you say put him in there with Eddie, Angle, etc to get him better. Fine. I agree, completely. But do it BEFORE you give him the title. Don't put the title on a guy who still has to improve alot. Let him get these matches under his belt, then see if he HAS improved, and if he has, then consider making him your top guy. Don't just assume putting him in there with great workers will make him a good worker. Check it out first.

 

I find it funny that you say 'if they did this, or that with Eddie' then you yourself do the same with Cena. WHY can't they use the same scenario for Eddie? Of course they can. You're just looking at it that why because Eddie is older than Cena. He still has a BIG shot of being "the man" if they let him. Give Eddie the ball, he will run with it. I don't think that's the case with Cena.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I think some people are confused about Cena's mic skills.

 

Heel Cena who cut actual rap promo's = Good.

 

Face Cena who crowd whores and makes fecal matter jokes = Bad.

[Dark Age 0]

That's exactly what I've been saying.

 

Cena last year was good.

 

Cena this year sucks.

[Guest krazykat72]

"I agree with you, Cena WILL be a star. But you say put him in there with Eddie, Angle, etc to get him better. Fine. I agree, completely. But do it BEFORE you give him the title. Don't put the title on a guy who still has to improve alot. Let him get these matches under his belt, then see if he HAS improved, and if he has, then consider making him your top guy. Don't just assume putting him in there with great workers will make him a good worker. Check it out first."

 

uhm, if you check back, I said they should build this up to WM 21 with Cena going through these guys. That way he'd be much improved by the time he got the belt.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Dark Age 0]

But he won't be ready by Mania. He still needs a couple of years.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

You know my prediction? Give or take 5 to 10 years and Paul London will be probably be champ, seriously he's like the new Benoit of the IWC.

 

Of course he will fail at getting the title many times and be held down when he finally gets the title. Of course he will be in a differnt organization but whatever.

[what 0]

So as far as the chosen ones go we got Cena, Orton, Edge, and Shelton.

LOL @ Edge included in this. Christian is better in every way.

[Promoter 0]

Well, this has been fun. I think the next big stars we aren't even going to predict. I have to ask how did people feel about the "new generation" of 1994-1995 and how the wwe dealt with the pushes of certain individuals. To keep things short at the moment I believe the wwe waited too long to pull the trigger on HBK back then. By the time he won the big title at WM 12 he had lost a lot of steam due to the drastic changes to his character and the timing just being wrong. I also feel Bret Hart was getting the same kind of treatment Eddie is getting at the moment as being the guy to help the midcard although he is clearly the main event talent which hurts him in the long run.

 

Many talk about the wwe having dark days back then, but a lot of it had to do with poor execution and wrong timing. This gets me to this topic about Cena and Orton who I do believe the wwe are grooming to build the brands around. I think they have to be careful how they operate with these two guys if they want to bank on them. Cena in terms of popularity could be seen as HBK of 1994 and 1995 and as I stated the wwe blew it with HBK by not giving him the world title at WM 11 when even as a heel(back then much less) he was getting face pops. The wwe knew he would be a star, but waited for him to improve perhaps, but look what happened 1-2 years later. HBK's appeal in the mainstream died down(after WM X here in Toronto, the media was proclaiming him the new Ric Flair). He was getting some strong fanfare and was pitted with mainstream celebs like Pamela Anderson for WM 11. It took the wwf until DX to use the very same HBK that got new audiences on the edge of their seats in 1994-1995 to pop for him. This mind you after over 18 months of Hall and Nash doing the edginess that made their characters appealing in the wwf before Vince changed them into corporate babyfaces. Austin and Rock thankfully avoided the trap, but I believe it had more to do with wcw and the nwo attitude on their tail to keep them edgy in Vince's eyes. Vince doesn't get this side of characters imo.

 

Now, the wwe has John Cena and I see the same kind of thing happening. The cocky bastard character is gone and this kissing babies caricature has replaced him. I see the same thing with Eddie Guerrero. These two guys can carry the brand easily imo. I agree about Cena might not be completely ready along with Randy Orton, but go back to 1994-1995 when the wwe waited too long and messed up characters that fans were latching onto and see they delayed what could have been an explosion. Imagine Vince made Hall, Nash, and HBK rule the way wcw allowed them to in 1996. Vince would have had the boom first. Bret was the more experienced and whatnot, but the kliq really was the group the audience was relating to the most, but Vince's promotional philosophies hindered progress.

That's why I say push the young guys now since the men like HBK, Undertaker, and Triple H aren't drawing like they use to. The wwe has to kind of manufacture a "new generation" that has surpassed the last generation(attitude) breed. Hopefully, the wwe won't get another Brock Lesnar situation(never know he could return and be the big star).

 

You see the problems sometimes with waiting is that you give the general audience a preconceived notion that the wrestler can't break. I believe that is a major reason why HBK and Bret did not draw as well as guys like Savage. When they were stuck in the midcard for so long when they moved to the main event scene people had already pigeonholed them as midcarders in the main event scene because the real main eventers weren't there anymore. I think this is why the wwe should have pushed guys like Guerrero and Benoit two years ago. Timing is everything even though it troubles with grooming the wrestlers until they are ready for the position. We all know how trendy wrestling's mainstream fans are. Different styles go through the masses like nothing. 1999's style doesn't work today Triple H dominant champ of 2002 doesn't work today. The fans want to see new guys replace same of the old school. Take for example when Austin really got his push. It's always argued that he lost to Vega, but kept his heat. This is a myth. Go back and watch those matches and see how apathetic the crowd was. Once they started to push Austin with Bret Hart that is when he started to have a snowball effect. In hindsight, Bret should have simply put over Austin at least once between Survivor Series(where I think he should have) and WrestleMania(the match can be the same as it was). The same with The Rock. They made him mix it up with the big dogs and go over. The trick here was that the wwe did not screw up the edginess of their characters.

 

If I had to choose the two guys to push to headline it would be Orton and Cena with Rock and Triple H putting them over in a big feud. They have only been around for two years and haven't been pigeonholed yet as midcarders. Look at guys like Holly and Gunn. No matter how strong they push them fans won't give them a chance because they have been pigeonholed so long. I don't get the company's logic with Edge. It's obvious the fans aren't that excited over the guy turn him heel. They feel we should be ga ga over him as the next superstar and push him hard(Diesel in 1995 anyone?). He should be slowed down and groomed to improve to make us buy he is going to be a serious threat at the top. The picking and choosing of talent along with the execution are very important. The wwe did well with Kurt Angle by positioning him at the right time in 2000 and 2001. It's just too bad he is questionable. The same with Triple H in 1999 and by 2000 it was the right choice as he was really over.