Relievers and the Hall of Fame

[the max 0]

Basically, since I can't find the link to the show, Outside the Lines on ESPN had a great story last night on three of the best relief pitchers in baseball history: Goose Gossage; Lee Smith; and Bruce Suter not being able to garner enough votes for the Hall of Fame.

 

I thought about it during the segment, where it was brought up that Gossage is compared to the Gagnes and Riveras in the league today, and Gossage doesn't believe that's fair, that they should be compared to him.

 

It got me to thinking. Should there be different criteria for voting in relief pitchers and designated hitters into the hall of fame? They work limited time (relievers usually 80-100 innings a year and DH's don't field).

 

I think it's unfair for the Hall committee to exclude someone like Gossage, who broke the mold as far as relief pitchers are concerned with his innings in games that he played.

 

What does everyone think?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Goose Gossage more and more seems like a bitter ex-baseball player, lamenting how great pitchers of his era were, and how these modern punks aren't fit to hold his jockstrap. Its quite common actually.

 

Relief pitchers are usually pitchers who failed the cut as starting pitchers. They pitch less innings than starters, and pitch for shorter periods at a time. Would a pinch hitter merit serious HOF consideration? I think a relief pitcher who is a candidate for the Hall needs to truly dominate his era for a long period of time to merit discussion. I do not think the Hall should open the floodgates for closers. Of all closers, only Gossage really merits any kind of serious consideration. Ultimately, I can't see giving any closers serious thought when fine pitchers such as Bert Blyleven have yet to make the Hall. Perhaps in the future I'll do a Keltner List on Gossage to see how he rates.

 

Mariano Rivera will be interesting, as many see him as a HOFer due to his postseason work. I don't see it. Rollie Fingers has pitched the least innings of any modern day HOFer, 1701. Rivera trails him by nearly 1,000. Think about that. If his career ended today, Mariano Rivera would have less than HALF the innings pitched of the HOFer who pitched the LEAST. That's not a HOFer.

 

Designated hitters are a different argument, because their shortcomings have far less effect on the overall team. Moreover, few players actually DH their entire careers. Even Edgar Martinez spent a third of his career on the field. Paul Molitor, inducted today, played nearly half of his games as a DH. I think if the stats of a DH measure up to those of 1st basemen/corner outfield standards, they deserve consideration.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Rivera is pitching in the era of 1 inning closer.He's not in control of the number of innings he pitches. Really Eck is in for his years has a closer. So the closers like Rivera should be considered.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Saves are an inherently worthless stat, though. Most relievers come into a game in the 9th inning, no one on base, and a two or three-run lead. Even a chap with a 4.50 ERA will hold that lead more often than not. There are good closers out there (like Rivera and Gagne), and there have been others in the past, but 300 saves or 400 saves can't hold a candle to 300 wins, or any of the other "magic numbers."

 

As for DH'es, if the stats are there, they shouldn't be penalized for being a DH. The DH is part of the game now.

[Vern Gagne 0]

So also is the 1 inning closer. Rivera's been excellent during the season, and more importantly he's been almost perfect during the postseason.

[Crimson G 0]

300 saves or 400 saves can't hold a candle to 300 wins, or any of the other "magic numbers.

True, but how many closers actually have these numbers. I think there are only 3 pitchers with over 400 saves. The fact that it's so rare to get that many saves should warrant their inclusion to the Hall of Fame.

[Vern Gagne 0]

In order to be considered a closer has to be dominate. Not just get saves, but pretty much be unhittable for 8-10 years of his career.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

There are two with 400+ saves, Lee Smith and John Franco. Regardless of your feelings for relievers, I shudder at the thought of selecting them using saves. Saves are essentially a junk stat.

 

In addition, I think writers are looking at the wrong pitchers. Dan Quisenberry pitched the same number of innings, but had a better ERA than Bruce Sutter. But Quisenberry is never mentioned as a HOF candidate. John Franco has a better ERA and Adjusted ERA than most candidates, but is never mentioned as HOF quality. Kent Tekulve had a better career ERA than Goose Gossage. I think we need better methods of determining the top relievers before we start endorsing them for the Hall.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I agree. The Save is maybe professional sports most overrated stat. A closer can allow 2 runs and still be credited with the save.

[NoCalMike 0]

In the era of 1-inning relievers, only the SUPERIOR BEST should get in. Rivera comes to mind instantly, since he has come up big in the post season and for years on end. Gagne has been great recently, but he needs to do it over 5-6 years to be in the same class as Rivera.

 

Also there is the point already brought up that most relievers are guys who couldn't cut it as starters, which begs the question, could just about ANY starting pitcher be that much better at being a closer anyway? Rich Harden comes to mind, he throws in the upper-90's in the beginning of games, but he is having issues with his arm crapping out after a few innings, however if he was a pure 1-inning closer, where he could out and just gas it out for 1 inning would he be just as good as the other closers? Who knows.

[Crimson G 0]

Lee Smith, John Franco, et al. are guys who have worked hard for a long time (20 years) and never really had a bad season. They're not people like Bobby Thigpen & Kazuhiro Sasaki who burn out after a few years as closers. These men were legitimate closers for nearly 20 years. That's not an easy thing to do and it shouldn't be looked at like that.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It isn't noted that along with the percieved bias against relievers, the Hall has been quite stingy with starters as of late. The Hall hasn't chosen a starter without 300 wins since 1991. Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven, and Tommy John have been passed over as well.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Here's the Hall of Fame Monitor numbers for guys like Rivera, Smoltz, Eckersley, Smith, etc. You can see how the formula works at http://www.baseball-reference.com. The rankings are amongst pitchers and the scores are what they have or currently have(updated as of the 2003 season). Likely HOFer is > 100

 

Mariano Rivera(New York Yankees): 112 *Ranked 73rd All-Time*

John Smoltz(Atlanta Braves): 120 *Ranked 67th All-Time*

Dennis Eckersley: 172(Hall of Fame) *Ranked 29th All-Time*

Lee Smith: 136 *Ranked 47th All-Time*

John Franco: 125 *Ranked 60th All-Time*

Rollie Fingers: 139(Hall of Fame) *Ranked 45th All-Time*

Rich Gossage: 126 *Ranked 58th All-Time*

 

I'm a little surprised that Smith isn't in yet considering he's only 2 spots behind Fingers. I wouldn't be surprised to see Smoltz be a shoo-in if he goes for a few more years and Rivera could work his way in if he goes 4-5 more years or so(He's only pitched for 9 seasons and was 33 in 2003).