2004 WON HOF inductees

[Guest Loss]

When Meltzer did the top ten PPV draws of all time a few years ago, Luger was #6 on the list, behind only Austin, Rock, Hogan, Flair and ... someone else, don't remember who. He was ahead of Foley (in), Bret (in) and Michaels (in). He had a main event career that lasted from 1987-1997 or so, despite showing no huge drawing power at any point on house shows, but typically doing respectable numbers on PPV. Sting was probably the biggest babyface of the NWO era. I don't know who'd be #2 -- Luger, Page or Giant one. It's hard to say.

 

I do not think Luger is a viable HOF candidate. He never showed the dedication to the business he needed to become a big star. He hit his peak as a name in 1988 or 1989 and faded out around 1992 or so, having a few revivals over the next few years. The label on Luger as a choke artist is an infamous label and when he did get the WCW World title, he bombed, although he got the belt at a point when the fanbase was rejecting the product because he missed Flair. Then again, Rick Rude came along and managed to get over in that environment and quickly surpass Luger as the top heel in the company.

 

Angle -- well, if you want to compare him to someone in modern day WWE, Chris Jericho is probably on equal footing with Angle in terms of candidacy, and no way Jericho goes in. You could point to both doing big numbers headlining PPVs, but neither was ever the focal point -- the three buyrates drawn while Jericho was the defending champ were three of the highest in company history, but he was a bit player. Numbers were also respectable during Angle's 2000 reign, but he was clearly behind Austin, Rock, HHH and the Undertaker as a priority.

 

As a worker, I'd actually put Jericho slightly ahead of Angle, in that he's been a good worker for a longer period than Angle was ever a great worker. Jericho has been having good matches since 1994 or 1995 and is still one of the best in the company while Angle is already falling off the mountain. Angle's babyface run in 2001 bombed, and he's been flip-flopped many times since trying to recapture the magic surrounding him when he first debuted. It's been a failure.

 

Some may argue that Angle was really good for a short period of time, but that you could say the same for Satoru Sayama, who is in. In that case, I'd have to disagree. TM was one of the most influential workers of his time (he was a hack in many ways, but he was influential) and a star in his own right, with a cartoon TV show based around his character. You could also call him one of the inspirations for NJPW's junior heavyweight division.

 

HHH, who did not get in, is a much stronger candidate than Angle, despite not even really being HOF-worthy at this point himself. The problem is that the bar has been lowered dramatically by letting Angle in -- guys like Jericho who are on equal footing are going to have a strong case to go in now, despite not having a HOF career, and guys like HHH who have had more success than Angle are going to have a stronger case to go in as well. The ball has been dropped by the voters, and I blame Meltzer's constant pimping of Angle as a wrestling God when he hasn't even been the best in the company at any point since he's been active.

[Dark Age 0]

Angle couldn't get a ** match out of brock Lesnar

 

Let's not go nuts.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Sting was on the shelf for a time in 1990. The ME shots were given to Lex. The buyrates were there.

 

Plus, I attribute Luger's push as bringing in business for WCW during the early NWO stuff. Luger was over as hell.

 

NWA was covered earlier.

 

Angle hasn't drawn a picture in a color booking, much less money, despite his awesome in-ring skills.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The image problem with Luger is most of us associate him with his early 90s career, when he was on the way downhill. In the mid to late 80s, he was truly a hot commodity.

[Guest krazykat72]

Don't forget that the buyrates of the late 80's and early 90's are artificially high due to the considerably lower cable universe at the time. WCW was a consistent money loser until the NWO boom.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Staravenger]

Don't forget that the buyrates of the late 80's and early 90's are artificially high due to the considerably lower cable universe at the time. WCW was a consistent money loser until the NWO boom.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

WCW didn't exist when Luger was at his hottest: 87 when he was in the Horsemen, and 88 when he became a main event face.. I ignored the whole NWO feud because it was past Lugers prime, but that can also be used as an example where he was part of a money making feud.

 

The NWA that became WCW was still technically the NWA until 1991 when Ric Flair became the first recognized WCW Champion.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Ok, first of all, you all are completly right about Bret carrying Diesel, and the Survivor Series match is actually one of my favorites, I can't believe I forgot about that one. But to argue that Angle is not in the league of Bret, or to say that Jericho is a better worker then Angle is rediculous. Even if Angle's style of match isn't one that you enjoy, which is perfectly fine, don't you think that if most of the respected pro wrestling journalists, as well as Bret and Flair, regard Angle as the best then they must know what they are talking about?

 

Luger probably was a draw during the early NWO when he fought Hogan at Hog Wild. I'm actually interested in knowing that buyrate.

 

Luger being listed as the number six draw in wrestling history sure as hell shocked me. However like Loss said, Luger was a main eventer for more or less ten years, while Angle was around for only five years total. Who knows what he would have/will draw in the next five years.

 

Yes, the Invasion did flop from a creative standpoint, but it still drew some big numbers. Invasion, which had Angle as the #2 babyface, was the biggest non-wrestlemania PPV of all time. Survivor Series that year also did an above average buyrate. I bet Summerslam, with Angle vs. Austin as the main event, did quite well too. I'm in the process of reading the observers from 2001 so I will be able to find out the money figures shortly.

[Sass 0]

The first batch of guys got in because Dave and a couple other buddies of his threw their names in who looked like "HOFers" at the time. This is why Backlund missed the first class because of how badly Dave criticized Backlund over the years. Personally, I'd say his disdain towards Backlund stemmed from his inner Flair fanboy since Bob was his antithesis in nearly every way.

 

On that note, fuck Meltzer for being such a lazy hack these last several years. Fuck Angle for getting in when he's not even good enough to sniff half the jocks of the guys who are legit HOFers. Fuck the WON HOF since it's a sad joke gone wrong. Last but not least, fuck the ignorant fucks who Dave has handed ballot's too like candy without seeing if their knowledge of wrestling warrants a ballot.

 

Stick a fork in the WON HOF Meltzer, it's done. The HHH circle jerking will be ridiculous next year. I am already dreading the masses of dimwits who will come out of the wood works to push for HHH making it into the HOF when he's had just as many "great" years as Angle has. Fuck Meltzer for helping foster fan ignorance with his lazy work.

 

But I digress.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

The first batch of guys got in because Dave and a couple other buddies of his threw their names in who looked like "HOFers" at the time.  This is why Backlund missed the first class because of how badly Dave criticized Backlund over the years.  Personally, I'd say his disdain towards Backlund stemmed from his inner Flair fanboy since Bob was his antithesis in nearly every way.

 

On that note, fuck Meltzer for being such a lazy hack these last several years.  Fuck Angle for getting in when he's not even good enough to sniff half the jocks of the guys who are legit HOFers.  Fuck the WON HOF since it's a sad joke gone wrong.  Last but not least, fuck the ignorant fucks who Dave has handed ballot's too like candy without seeing if their knowledge of wrestling warrants a ballot.

 

Stick a fork in the WON HOF Meltzer, it's done.  The HHH circle jerking will be ridiculous next year.  I am already dreading the masses of dimwits who will come out of the wood works to push for HHH making it into the HOF when he's had just as many "great" years as Angle has.  Fuck Meltzer for helping foster fan ignorance with his lazy work.

 

But I digress.

You talk about fan ignorance and lazy work...

 

I don't see one thing in that post that is actual fact. You are just assuming things. You don't know how the Hall of Fame was started or who actually has ballots.

 

I hate people who make judgements without even knowing what they are talking about.

[Guest Ray]

Ok, first of all, you all are completly right about Bret carrying Diesel, and the Survivor Series match is actually one of my favorites, I can't believe I forgot about that one.

 

But to argue that Angle is not in the league of Bret, or to say that Jericho is a better worker then Angle is ridiculous.

Bret Hart really was a giant leap ahead of Angle. He's just a much smarter wrestler. Bret was a master of weaving great little stories into his matches. Bret excelled at taking poor or average workers and guiding them to good matches. Bret, unlike Angle, never did things to make himself look foolish or to expose himself. Bret's work in his matches is structured far better and makes much more sense. Bret towers over Angle in the selling department, as he rarely forgot to sell, whereas Angle is often forgetful and/or ignores proper selling in order to pull off a signature move. Bret was far better at controlling the pace of a match work working superb transitions in. Bret's work is generally deeper/more meaningful, as he would play off things that happened in previous matches. He would go into matches with gameplans and clear strategies, and carry them through all the way. I can't recall Angle ever doing the same.

 

The only advantage Angle has is athleticism. And it's not like Bret wasn't a good athlete, so it's not a big advantage.

 

Even if Angle's style of match isn't one that you enjoy, which is perfectly fine, don't you think that if most of the respected pro wrestling journalists, as well as Bret and Flair, regard Angle as the best then they must know what they are talking about?

I never said I didn't enjoy Angle or his style. He can be quite exciting to watch. His athleticism, bumping, and move execution are all superb.

 

I've seen wrestlers and wrestling journalists say many incorrect things and show clear biases, so no, I don't believe they always know what they're talking about.

 

Yes, the Invasion did flop from a creative standpoint, but it still drew some big numbers. Invasion, which had Angle as the #2 babyface, was the biggest non-wrestlemania PPV of all time. Survivor Series that year also did an above average buyrate. I bet Summerslam, with Angle vs. Austin as the main event, did quite well too.

Angle was against proven mega-draw Steve Austin though, and the Invasion buyrate has to be credited to the "oh my god WCW wrestlers are on a WWF PPV!" or "which WCW wrestlers will show up?" elements.

[teke184 0]

I figured that Angle would be a stretch this year and it turned out to be right...

 

 

From the voting breakdown that Meltzer listed, Angle's entry is mainly due to huge support from current wrestlers and retired wrestlers. "Wrestling journalists", the last group, didn't support him nearly as heavily.

 

 

I'd say that current wrestlers see Angle as pretty much the #3 guy in the WWE, although he was actually the #1 full-time performer until recently, as guys like Trips, Austin, Taker, and Rock have all been part-time since 2001 due to various reasons.

 

He pretty much had four years as a full-time performer, three of those as a headliner / top-tier guy. Even as a part-timer over the last year, he's still been a top guy and put on good matches.

 

 

As for older wrestlers, they see him as a great in-ring performer and the Olympic background probably gives most of them a woody, especially those who grew up in territories which had legit shooters like Karl Gotch as enforcers.

 

 

Wrestling journalists probably look at Angle's lack of longevity and take into account the good chance that Angle's in-ring performances are hyped right now but will not stand up over time.

 

 

 

Angle's a serious borderline case, especially where he is now in his career, but he could justify this if he can go another year without breaking his neck again.

 

 

 

 

As for Trips, he got huge support from current wrestlers but MUCH less from retired wrestlers.

 

There are no notes on "journalist" votes on him but I'd guess they probably fall into the same category as the retired wrestlers, some of whom said they withheld their votes because of his political nature, the fact that he's so protected, the fact that he's practically Vince's #2 guy, etc.

 

I wouldn't vote on Trips considering 2002 and 2003, although this year has been somewhat tolerable once Benoit took the belt off of him. Actually *gasp* LOSING helped him considerably, because it made him interesting again.

[bob_barron 0]

Saying Fuck Kurt Angle is an incredibly stupid thing to say Sass.

 

He has nothing to do with him being in the WON Hall of Fame. So your hate over this induction is pretty misplaced

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Yes, the Invasion did flop from a creative standpoint, but it still drew some big numbers. Invasion, which had Angle as the #2 babyface, was the biggest non-wrestlemania PPV of all time. Survivor Series that year also did an above average buyrate. I bet Summerslam, with Angle vs. Austin as the main event, did quite well too.

Angle was against proven mega-draw Steve Austin though, and the Invasion buyrate has to be credited to the "oh my god WCW wrestlers are on a WWF PPV!" or "which WCW wrestlers will show up?" elements.

That's a very good point, but ratings remained high (I'm not sure about buyrates) at least through Summerslam (and I know this because I'm reading the Observer's from 2001 currently), so either the novelty of WCW vs. WWF lasted longer then at least I believed or fans began to be interested in the characters.

 

Actually, reading about the time period is really interesting, as I am up to August, and at no time is the Invasion being referred to as a failure. Sure the initial part of the angle was bungled, but once Austin turned heel, ratings stabilized (after increasing when Austin briefly turned face for a week in July) and fan interest was back at pre-WM17 levels. Looking back on it, I seem to remember it being considered a total failure on all levels.

[Sass 0]

The first batch of guys got in because Dave and a couple other buddies of his threw their names in who looked like "HOFers" at the time.  This is why Backlund missed the first class because of how badly Dave criticized Backlund over the years.  Personally, I'd say his disdain towards Backlund stemmed from his inner Flair fanboy since Bob was his antithesis in nearly every way.

 

On that note, fuck Meltzer for being such a lazy hack these last several years.  Fuck Angle for getting in when he's not even good enough to sniff half the jocks of the guys who are legit HOFers.  Fuck the WON HOF since it's a sad joke gone wrong.  Last but not least, fuck the ignorant fucks who Dave has handed ballot's too like candy without seeing if their knowledge of wrestling warrants a ballot.

 

Stick a fork in the WON HOF Meltzer, it's done.  The HHH circle jerking will be ridiculous next year.  I am already dreading the masses of dimwits who will come out of the wood works to push for HHH making it into the HOF when he's had just as many "great" years as Angle has.  Fuck Meltzer for helping foster fan ignorance with his lazy work.

 

But I digress.

You talk about fan ignorance and lazy work...

 

I don't see one thing in that post that is actual fact. You are just assuming things. You don't know how the Hall of Fame was started or who actually has ballots.

 

I hate people who make judgements without even knowing what they are talking about.

 

You're assuming I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Pot, kettle, black.

 

How the WON HOF got started and who holds ballots aren't big secrets kept from the public.

 

Go to WrestlingClassics.com and check out the WON folder and all of it's threads. All of the stuff I mentioned above is scattered around in there. If that's not your cup of tea then you can e-mail one of the WON's c-creator John D.Williams at tOA and ask him for information. Todd Martin, Richard Sullivan, and CrimsonMask, posters at WC.com, have made it known that they hold ballots while their knowledge of wrestling history is abysmal. Others at the message board have also said they hold a ballot so it isn't a big secret.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Sass, grow up. "Fuck Angle"? I'm sure he doesn't even know he is in the hall of fame. So go suck a dick.

 

I can see why Kurt Angle got indicted. And it has little to do with his draw ability or wrestling skills. It is because he is the only gold medalist in amatuer wrestling and world champion in pro wrestling.

 

And because he paved the way for amatuer wrestlers to get into the sport.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the choice, but that is problay the reason.

[Guest Staravenger]

Sass, grow up. "Fuck Angle"? I'm sure he doesn't even know he is in the hall of fame. So go suck a dick.

Thats not the best thing to say to a Mod. Look what happend when Eugene mouthed off to NikJohns...or whatever his name is. (I'm not good with remembering poster names)

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

It's not the right thing, to say "Fuck Angle", when he had nothing to do with it. It was very immature, like my comments were.

[Guest MikeSC]

I don't know about Luger............

Luger's not a HOFer. Nowhere close. But Luger was a bigger draw and had more main event longevity than Angle.

Ummm, Luger never drew a dime in his life.

-=Mike

[Sass 0]

Sass, grow up. "Fuck Angle"? I'm sure he doesn't even know he is in the hall of fame. So go suck a dick.

It's hard to take your advice when you're telling me to go "suck a dick."

 

More pot, kettle, black.

 

I can see why Kurt Angle got indicted. And it has little to do with his draw ability or wrestling skills. It is because he is the only gold medalist in amatuer wrestling and world champion in pro wrestling.

 

And because he paved the way for amatuer wrestlers to get into the sport.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the choice, but that is problay the reason.

 

And you think this didn't cross others people's minds?

 

Lesnar and Benjamin haven't even hit their primes while Lesnar is gone from wrestling now. Brock's "impact" hasn't shown any legs to stand on as we're only a couple months removed from when he was working in the WWE while Angle is on his last set of legs with nothing to prove himself HOF worthy. Benjamin's "breakout" match with HHH was never given the treatment it should have gotten and really hurt both guys. Neither Lesnar or Benjamin are currently relevent in wrestling but they could be players if Brock comes back and Benjamin improves as a worker.

 

Angle's amateur wrestling doesn't mean anything and nor do the people that he supposedly inspired who have gained even less than he has. If Angle's amateur career and WWE run had the type of impact that Meltzer is trying to pass off on folks then guys like Rulon Gardner, Alexander Karelin and Lennox Lewis would have accepted the deals the WWE offered them in the past to work with Angle and Brock. Neither guy took the deals (which were very generous at the time) so this cancels out the "influence" Angle has had on legit athletes coming into wrestling after seeing Angle do it. Maybe in the next 5 years or so an amateur wrestler boom will occur and then we'll find out if Angle's wrestling career had any effect on retired and out-of-work Olympic amateur wrestlers deciding to get into pro wrestling.

 

To me, Ultimo Dragon has HOFer written on him but I want to wait to see how his students do before I'd feel comfortable voting for him. Same deal applies to Angle. He's someone who has had a short career with lots of peaks and valley's and I'd like to see those smooth out before I'd consider giving him a nod. I'd like to see him wrestle for a few more years and then retire before I'd vote him in since as it stands, he's a weaker candidate than HBK who had little in the way of drawing power and longevity.

 

My "fuck Angle" was more directed at Meltzer's over done praise of Angle. His praise is like saying "let's eat" when dinner is still an hour away from being made. Give it time.

[Guest Contentious C]

You don't know how the Hall of Fame was started

You mean Meltzer and John Williams flying to Japan and brainstorming? Yeah, auspicious beginnings.

 

or who actually has ballots.

Like Todd Martin??

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

End of story. Kurt Angle's an AWESOME wrestler. But so was, say, Ricky Steamboat. Neither belong in a wrestling "Hall of Fame" because neither did anything to warrant it.

 

Have a great wrestling style? Check.

Put on great matches? Check.

Do so and constantly ADD business to a growing wrestling company and increase their "status" to a bigger audience? NOPE.

[Guest Ray]

"AWESOME" is highly arguable...

[Guest Staravenger]

There is no such thing as an Awesome wrestler. Everyone has flaws, so Great is the highest rating I can call anyone.

 

Awesome - no one.

Great -Wrestlers who can adapt to most styles.

Good - Can carry his own, but can have great matches with better workers.

Exceptional - Consistantly has decent matches, but nothing that stands out.

Poor/Bad - Short and Sweet: Sucks.

[Guest Loss]

I don't know about Luger............

Luger's not a HOFer. Nowhere close. But Luger was a bigger draw and had more main event longevity than Angle.

Ummm, Luger never drew a dime in his life.

-=Mike

Angle has? And yes, Luger has the rep for never having drawn, but his PPV buys record is really good -- more than Foley, Bret or Michaels.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair.

 

Bret Hart.

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

 

Not that that makes Angle a better worker then Bret, because that's debatable, but for the sake of this argument I would rate Angle over Bret.

WHAT? And you call yourself an "expert" as far as the observer goes? Apparently you missed the story a few issues back where they talked about a HUGE prelim guy that faught Bret in the early 90's in a TV taping. Apparently this guy looked so good, Vince was thinking of grooming him to be the next champion.......until they figured out that he couldn't work.........and he looked badass apparently when in the ring with Bret. So not to be a smartass......but your wrong on this one. Plus if Bret can't get good matches out of big slugs...then how do you explain the ***+ matches with Diesel then?

[Fökai 0]

Awesome - no one.

Great -Wrestlers who can adapt to most styles.

Good - Can carry his own, but can have great matches with better workers.

Exceptional - Consistantly has decent matches, but nothing that stands out.

Poor/Bad - Short and Sweet: Sucks.

 

That's not the definition of exceptional.

 

Angle has? And yes, Luger has the rep for never having drawn, but his PPV buys record is really good -- more than Foley, Bret or Michaels.

 

I don't remember a pay-per-view Foley headlined that didn't do exceptionally well or at least above-average. Care to correct me here?

[Kapoutman 0]

For people debating about Angle's or Bret's selling ability, I think that the simple fact that Bret was selling his knee injury for almost two years straight is the greatest example of why he is a better wrestler. Like someone said here, Angle sells for a little while, and then all of a sudden, he pops up, forgetting everything that was done to him and ends the match.

 

When Bret was selling, you could see him hop on one leg, stumble around the ring, favor a leg or an arm...He just did it like he was REALLY hurt.

 

I'm not saying that Angle sucks, because I love him. Bret is just a better wrestler.

 

I am still undecided between Jericho and Angle though. Sure, Angle knows every moves in the book, but in my opinion, Jericho has a better "professional wrestling" knowledge, if you know what I mean. He knows every little tricks that can make a match better or more exciting, every tactics to draw heat. The choice is a difficult one.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair.

 

Bret Hart.

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

 

Not that that makes Angle a better worker then Bret, because that's debatable, but for the sake of this argument I would rate Angle over Bret.

WHAT? And you call yourself an "expert" as far as the observer goes? Apparently you missed the story a few issues back where they talked about a HUGE prelim guy that faught Bret in the early 90's in a TV taping. Apparently this guy looked so good, Vince was thinking of grooming him to be the next champion.......until they figured out that he couldn't work.........and he looked badass apparently when in the ring with Bret. So not to be a smartass......but your wrong on this one. Plus if Bret can't get good matches out of big slugs...then how do you explain the ***+ matches with Diesel then?

I know the story you are referring to, though I don't remember his name off hand (Tim Magee or something maybe?). Anyway, of course there are exceptions, just as great workers will have bad matches every now and then and bad workers will somehow pull a decent match out of their ass. But looking at the big picture, Bret wasn't able to carry slugs like Yokozuna (ok, he maybe be a super slug), King Kong Bundy, Bam Bam Bigelow, Kwang, etc. Who knows whether or not Angle would be able to carry those guys or not, but, at least as far as I can remember, the only matches Angle has had that were downright bad were with Undertaker (whom Bret had some good matches with). One could blame those matches, though, on Taker's refusal to sell anything that Angle offerend (I'm specifically referring to Fully Loaded 00).

 

I completly understand that Angle is facing much higher caliber workers then Bret was, so it should be easier for Angle to carry a guy to a good match then it was for Bret. That is why it is a hard thing to compare.

 

And no, I don't consider myself an expert, but when I first responded to this topic people were makind responses and it seemed like they didn't understand how the HOF worked. You obviously do.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair.

 

Bret Hart.

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

 

Not that that makes Angle a better worker then Bret, because that's debatable, but for the sake of this argument I would rate Angle over Bret.

WHAT? And you call yourself an "expert" as far as the observer goes? Apparently you missed the story a few issues back where they talked about a HUGE prelim guy that faught Bret in the early 90's in a TV taping. Apparently this guy looked so good, Vince was thinking of grooming him to be the next champion.......until they figured out that he couldn't work.........and he looked badass apparently when in the ring with Bret. So not to be a smartass......but your wrong on this one. Plus if Bret can't get good matches out of big slugs...then how do you explain the ***+ matches with Diesel then?

I know the story you are referring to, though I don't remember his name off hand (Tim Magee or something maybe?). Anyway, of course there are exceptions, just as great workers will have bad matches every now and then and bad workers will somehow pull a decent match out of their ass. But looking at the big picture, Bret wasn't able to carry slugs like Yokozuna (ok, he maybe be a super slug), King Kong Bundy, Bam Bam Bigelow, Kwang, etc. Who knows whether or not Angle would be able to carry those guys or not, but, at least as far as I can remember, the only matches Angle has had that were downright bad were with Undertaker (whom Bret had some good matches with). One could blame those matches, though, on Taker's refusal to sell anything that Angle offerend (I'm specifically referring to Fully Loaded 00).

 

I completly understand that Angle is facing much higher caliber workers then Bret was, so it should be easier for Angle to carry a guy to a good match then it was for Bret. That is why it is a hard thing to compare.

 

And no, I don't consider myself an expert, but when I first responded to this topic people were makind responses and it seemed like they didn't understand how the HOF worked. You obviously do.

I would pretty much agree with everything you said there, except for one of those names I wouldn't agree with. Bigelow. Him and Bret from KOTR 93 isn't bad and Bigelow is the one that has been known throughout his career as a guy that could never stay motivated to put on good matches. I think the final from the first KOTR can prove that Bret surely carried him. Watch the match, Bret really helps Bam Bam draw heat as he really looks like he's getting his ass handed to him. Not the greatest match ever, but it is better than a large majority of Angle's work for example(that is Angle's matches with guys that aren't Eddie, Benoit, Austin).

 

Also, good job not taking my first post as a knock against you........it wasn't meant that way and it's nice to see people that would actually discuss things as opposed to flaming each other or just posting stupid shit.

[Guest kjh]

You don't know how the Hall of Fame was started

You mean Meltzer and John Williams flying to Japan and brainstorming? Yeah, auspicious beginnings.

Talking about John Williams over at tOA he responded to drdrainoscott's first post in this thread.

 

Feel free to respond to his post at tOA if you want to.