The Reason why WWE turned Orton...

[humongous2002 0]

The exact reasons behind the sudden change...

 

WWE had been planning to turn Randy Orton face and break him away from Triple H and Evolution for awhile, however, the decision to do a surprise turn on RAW last week was due to two main reasons.

 

One, both Vince McMahon and Triple H felt that it wouldn't be possible to stave off Randy Orton's quickly growing fanbase. Orton was already getting face pops everywhere and the decision was made to encourage the fans to cheer him now, rather than hold it off and risk overkilling the audience and making the turn anticlimatic.

 

Two, business has been down and most rises have always been associated with the rise of a new top babyface. Everyone sees in Orton the potential to catch fire and spark business. The extremely low ratings for RAW and Smackdown going into Summerslam didn't help matters. Everyone backstage likes Chris Benoit and what he brings, but the feeling was that he would not be the guy to cause a business spark, which Orton has the potential to do in management's opinion.

 

The risk of turning Orton face so soon is that fans could end up turning against him if he appears like "the chosen one" from management to be WWE's new face. To avoid that, WWE is planning to keep his character heel-like and edgy and not become too much of a traditional face.

 

Consideration was given to doing a slow build for this entire angle. Orton would have remained in Evolution as World Champion, but tension would slowly grow between he and Triple H. As we saw, WWE opted to go with the sudden change, again, for the reasons listed above.

 

Credit: Torch Newsletter

[The Czech Republic 0]

What frightens me the most is that people think HHH-Orton should drag out to WM. That's SIX MONTHS AWAY. I won't buy or even watch a WrestleMania that has Randy Orton in the main event. It's just not credible. He doesn't deserve to go over HHH on the biggest stage, because he's not that over, he's not that charismatic, and he's not that good.

 

"WHAT?!?! You're wrong! He's OOZING with charisma!"

Sorry, TSM poster, but no. And if you look down, something is oozing from you.

 

The best route is to have him drop the title to HHH at Unforgiven and move on, just forgetting that a serious Orton push ever happened. Oh and while we're eliminating champions with zero credibility who don't deserve to be on top, JBL should drop the strap soon. I don't care if it's to Charlie Haas, anyone else would be better in my eyes.

[Guest Loss]

If JBL drops the belt to Hardcore Holly and you complain, I'm banning you.

 

Just kidding.

 

 

But yeah, I'd like to see them accept that the Benoit/Jericho/Eddy group is the group that needs to be on top right now and phase out the HHH/Taker group and SLOWLY elevate the Cena/Orton group. That would turn business around, especially if they took the gloves off and actually presented Benoit and Jericho as the very best on RAW and Eddy as the very best on Smackdown. As it stands, the lost generation continues to be overlooked.

[The Czech Republic 0]

But Orton shouldn't be elevated because he suuuuuuuucks.

 

When is Harry Smith coming to the WWF? Now there's a third-generation superstar. I don't care if he's barely older than I am I bet he could still wrestle rings around half the roster just as a product of the Hart family. Davey Boy Smith and Stu Hart > Bob Orton Jr. and Sr. Not even funny.

[Angle-plex 0]

Orton is only going to get better though, and by the time Wrestlemania rolls around he'll be ready to main event. The man doesn't bleed charisma, but he can cut a good promo (better than Benoit) and he showed it during his celebration speech. The guy is more ready than most people think, and the fact that WWE says they want to keep his character edgy makes me happy, although I'll wait until I see it to believe it.

[The Czech Republic 0]

I. Am. Randy. Orton.

I. Am. The WWE. Champion. (He's not)

You know why?

Because I. Am. Better. Than you.

 

Yeah that's real fuckin' captivating. If he was so good maybe I wouldn't have considered the beatdown to be a HHH face turn.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

By WrestleMania time, Randy Orton will be the most popular wrestler on either brand.

 

Thus, he'll main event.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I. Am. Randy. Orton.

I. Am. The WWE. Champion. (He's not)

You know why?

Because I. Am. Better. Than you.

 

Yeah that's real fuckin' captivating. If he was so good maybe I wouldn't have considered the beatdown to be a HHH face turn.

But he wouldn't be cutting a promo like that anyway, because he's a face.

[Promoter 0]

Again, think like how Vince thinks. Vince and Triple H aren't going to change their plans and watch people be sheep and start backing Orton. Of course, Vince is forcing this down people's throat, but he also did this with Brock Lesnar in 2002, Angle in 2000, Rock in 1997, and so on. Look how the internet has calmed down over Bradshaw as champion. Some are actually getting into his reign. I still hate the idea of this guy being champion. Again, I have already stated how I would have done this thing, but I've been watching so long I kind of can see how Vince's mind operates.

 

I still believe these reactions at house shows(where fans are backing Triple H which could explain that maybe some do see the turn as Trips going face) would have still happened down the line. They probably want Orton to go over Triple H to create a new star. If they had turned Triple H face and had Orton keep Evolution as well as go over Triple H where would that leave Triple H in a face role? There are many equations to this whole thing and I don't think they have made that bad a move YET(not what I would do, but I can see some of their logic). Remember, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin did have INDIFFERENCE to crowds in 1996 after the KOR speech. The fans really started to catch on months later and I say around Rumble '97 the water was starting to boil. Hulk Hogan won the title out of nowhere(where it's even debated whether Backlund even knew he would get replaced in MSG). It's just looking back on history it seems like everything fell into place. I admit Hogan was already massively over from another company. However, Hogan was also not ripping arenas open with fans either until a year later after the pre-Mania push. The point is that coming out of nowhere doesn't exactly equal things being an instant flop. I still say give this some time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Niether was the 80's and 90's empire of the wwf/e. They clearly have a long term plan here with Orton imo. How they get there is the question mark.

 

You see that's why I think they have kept Triple H the central focus of Evolution. Imagine if Triple H is out of the group you would have Orton/Batista/Flair as Evolution. Evolution is weakened as where if Trips stays in the group the gimmick can still groom future stars by a revolving door that has Triple H and Flair(who are getting the pops for respect and being seen as the real stars). Going up against the main core of Triple H and Flair is an easier way to create a new star in theory. Having someone take over from Triple H and surpassing him is a harder thing to do. This is not like Rock overtaking Farooq in the Nation. Farooq never built up a career as strong as Triple H's, so Rock taking over and surpassing him was easier to do. There was a reason why the nWo fell apart once Hogan, Hall, and Nash were ripped away as the core. Even two of the three could have gone against each other, but it was just not the same. They created the group and established themselves on a high level. The same with Trips/Flair with Evolution. I think a problem with some fans backing Triple H is that both men were heels and they never really told the story of who is in the wrong here. Orton was a prick at the beginning of the show and he never really got his heel comeuppance as usually done with heel to face turns. In some ways Trips/Evo beatdown was his heel comeuppance. Last monday was a start with the story that Trips just wants the title handed to him. Now they got to strengthen to story for fans to get behind Orton.

 

Of course, I could be extremely positive here and blinded to the fact this company has screwed up so many damn times. The flipside to that is Vince has done things to turn business around before and survived. (Hopes as the ratings and attendance doesn't sink even lower with Orton being groomed as the top star).

[justcoz 0]

But yeah, I'd like to see them accept that the Benoit/Jericho/Eddy group is the group that needs to be on top right now and phase out the HHH/Taker group and SLOWLY elevate the Cena/Orton group. That would turn business around, especially if they took the gloves off and actually presented Benoit and Jericho as the very best on RAW and Eddy as the very best on Smackdown. As it stands, the lost generation continues to be overlooked.

 

Really excellent point. Those are the recognizeable names from the Monday Night Wars and they were the guys who everyone, marks included, expected to step up when the NWO, Goldberg, Austin and Rock, etc. went away. You can even throw in RVD because of his popularity in ECW and upon his WWF debut. And they also had Raven for a few years and gave him the shaft.

 

They have this mentality that they must create new stars but in the process they are pretty much skipping over a generation of guys who are still relatively in their primes (although the later years of their primes). I would also add Matt Hardy, Christian, Edge and even Stevie Richards to that list.

 

They had something with the ending of Mania and Eddie and Benoit hugging to end the show. Going into the next night, there was a renewed interest in the product from smarks and marks. They did nothing with their title reigns though. They didn't allow either to demonstrate the workrate that brought each of them to those championships. I've said it in a few other threads but think of how awesome those reigns would have been had we seen Eddie vs. Benjamin, RVD, Mysterio, etc. rather than JBL. What about Benoit vs. Jericho, Christian, Edge, Hardy and HBK instead of Kane and HHH?

 

Benoit played second to whatever program HHH was in throughout his entire reign. The same applies to Eddie playing second to Taker. If the company themselves don't take the gloves off and trust these guys to be their future for at least the next year or so - then the fans are going to tune out because it's basically the same glass ceiling sh*t. They spent more time pushing JBL, a midcarder, than their champion and they also insulted the demographic their champion represented in doing so.

 

I like the fact that they are going to have Orton maintain his edge as a babyface and I loved the angle where Evolution turned on him. I don't think we needed it to be drawn out. I do think that if this is going to work and Orton is going to ever be seen as a legitimate star - HHH needs to job to him and move on to something else, allowing Orton to move on to other challengers. HHH is 1999 and for the sake of the family business, he needs to realize that and just become a special attraction, not the main event.

[The Czech Republic 0]

I. Am. Randy. Orton.

I. Am. The WWE. Champion. (He's not)

You know why?

Because I. Am. Better. Than you.

 

Yeah that's real fuckin' captivating. If he was so good maybe I wouldn't have considered the beatdown to be a HHH face turn.

But he wouldn't be cutting a promo like that anyway, because he's a face.

Okay, well

 

*ptooie!*

 

(grin and run like a girl)

 

 

wasn't much better.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

What frightens me the most is that people think HHH-Orton should drag out to WM. That's SIX MONTHS AWAY. I won't buy or even watch a WrestleMania that has Randy Orton in the main event. It's just not credible. He doesn't deserve to go over HHH on the biggest stage, because he's not that over, he's not that charismatic, and he's not that good.

 

While you have valid points, I'd rather see Orton go over HHH than the other way around. I'm sure most of the board will agree with me on this.

[razazteca 0]

I. Am. Randy. Orton.

I. Am. The WWE. Champion. (He's not)

You know why?

*spits* tobacco juice

Cause I'm a 3rd gen wrestler.

*smiles for the camera Enzyte style*

This is more like it.

[Guest Loss]

HHH winning the title back right now would be the right business decision under normal circumstances, but people are so tired of seeing him so dominant and with the title that he needs to stay away for a while and let some big things happen that have nothing to do with him.

[razazteca 0]

I would rather watch Chris Beniot vs Karem Ibharam (Egyptian wrestler) for the title than Orton vs HHH.

[justcoz 0]

HHH winning the title back right now would be the right business decision under normal circumstances, but people are so tired of seeing him so dominant and with the title that he needs to stay away for a while and let some big things happen that have nothing to do with him.

 

For a moment on Monday night, when Orton was standing there face to face with HHH holding the championship, I actually thought that Orton was going to hand him the title, siting that he wasn't ready to compete against HHH and Evolution. I thought for sure it was going to be a swerve, ala the finger poke of doom in WCW and they were going to draw this out for several months.

 

Also, I find it ironic that they could have totally used The Rock to put Orton over but it was probably vetoed because of HHH's jealousy towards Rock. Imagine Orton standing in the ring facing HHH and Evolution, about to hand over the championship, Rock's music hits. Rock cuts a promo about standing on your own and being independent, this is Randy's time, blah blah blah.

 

Then again, God that Diva segment would have totally sucked...

[Guest JoeyStyles]

By WrestleMania time, Randy Orton will be the most popular wrestler on either brand.

 

Thus, he'll main event.

And if he is not popular by then WWE will keep on going forward with the Randy Express.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I. Am. Randy. Orton.

I. Am. The WWE. Champion. (He's not)

You know why?

Because I. Am. Better. Than you.

 

Yeah that's real fuckin' captivating. If he was so good maybe I wouldn't have considered the beatdown to be a HHH face turn.

But he wouldn't be cutting a promo like that anyway, because he's a face.

Okay, well

 

*ptooie!*

 

(grin and run like a girl)

 

 

wasn't much better.

Since when is evading a 3 on 1 beatdown "running like a girl"?

 

He got his shot in and left. That's called "smart."

[Guest INXS]

They didn't decide to turn Orton on Monday, the seeds were planted

at the PPV match with Benoit the night before. Besides, Orton isn't a face yet..all he's done is stand up to HHH, though of course Orton will now be booked as a face..i'm just being pedantic. It's a good choice ad Orton is solid in the ring, is over, young, great body, pretty charasmatic - only thing that lets him down is that he's not quite ready in the promo department.

[Guest wildpegasus]

The exact reasons behind the sudden change...

 

WWE had been planning to turn Randy Orton face and break him away from Triple H and Evolution for awhile, however, the decision to do a surprise turn on RAW last week was due to two main reasons.

 

One, both Vince McMahon and Triple H felt that it wouldn't be possible to stave off Randy Orton's quickly growing fanbase. Orton was already getting face pops everywhere and the decision was made to encourage the fans to cheer him now, rather than hold it off and risk overkilling the audience and making the turn anticlimatic.

 

Two, business has been down and most rises have always been associated with the rise of a new top babyface. Everyone sees in Orton the potential to catch fire and spark business. The extremely low ratings for RAW and Smackdown going into Summerslam didn't help matters. Everyone backstage likes Chris Benoit and what he brings, but the feeling was that he would not be the guy to cause a business spark, which Orton has the potential to do in management's opinion.

 

The risk of turning Orton face so soon is that fans could end up turning against him if he appears like "the chosen one" from management to be WWE's new face. To avoid that, WWE is planning to keep his character heel-like and edgy and not become too much of a traditional face.

 

Consideration was given to doing a slow build for this entire angle. Orton would have remained in Evolution as World Champion, but tension would slowly grow between he and Triple H. As we saw, WWE opted to go with the sudden change, again, for the reasons listed above.

 

Credit: Torch Newsletter

Laughs hysterically at almost everything printed here.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

I can see why people are not into Orton. Personally I feel he's worthy to be champion, but I think they were about a year early on making him a babyface champion.

 

There's a big difference between carrying the title as a heel and as a face. A face champion should be able to carry the product and should be put in a position to carry the product (for example Benoit never was). And I just dont think Randy is that guy RIGHT NOW.

 

I would have rather seen them either hold off the Orton title win till Mania, and let him turn face just before then. Or stay heel, win the title, and let Hunter turn face. Yeah maybe Hunter wins the title at Mania, and that kinda sucks, but at least then the fans would get used to Randy as champion in a heel role where you can ease into it. I mean think back to Rock and HHH as heel champs. Both guys one could argue were given the title too quickly, both started off as chicken-S heels and slowly started to become more serious in the ring. In both cases, this was helped along by Mick Foley programs.

 

And even though Rock was getting face pops (look back at his match with HHH is MSG) they didn't take that to mean "we gotta turn him face and give him the title". Instead they did give him the title, but they kept him heel, again to ease him in as an accepted main eventer by the fans. I really think they jumped the gun on thew face with Randy, I mean why is it the end of the world if a heel gets cheered, just let the fans do what they want.

 

Look at Austin, he was at or near the top of the card starting in Nov 96 and didn't win the title or headline Mania until March 98. That kind of build to a strong babyface title win is important IMO for the fans to get behind. But with Orton, we've already seen him win the title, and I dont think winning for the second time is as profitable.

 

This whole scenario is very similar to the Lesnar situation in '02. He won the title as a heel, quickly turned face, was screwed out of the title and then did the chase to Mania. But, keep in mind that was a very unsuccessful Mania. Not saying that was the only reason the show failed, but it obviousy didn't make the fans go crazy with anticipation either.

 

The other problem I see is that I dont see how fans will be able to latch onto Randy as a face. He doesn't have too many catch phrases and he's already running away. How many times did Austin run away as a top babyface? I know people will say its "smart", but the average fan wants a "hero" they can get behind, and that generally means fighting the odds. The WWE has had three guys who drew a ton of money and outpace (by a huge margin) almost everyone else in the industry (in NA anyway) and thats Rock, Austin and Hogan. All those guys played supermen type babyfaces and rarely if ever ran away. I'm not saying that one segment will kill his chances to get over, but I'm not confident how its started, put it that way.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Claiming that Brock "not being ready" was the reason WM XIX didn't do well. Is like claiming that Eddy sucked as Champion because house show attendance and PPV buys were down compared to Lesnar's reign.

[Promoter 0]

Good stuff here, but The Rock WAS turned face after SummerSlam. He was a face all the way heading into Survivor Series where they did the swerve and had him turn back heel. That is why I say we can't say for sure what they will do here. Orton can go back into Evolution by losing his title and then slowly burn back to a face against Hunter for Mania 21. I wouldn't put it past them to so something like this. As for Austin's big build to his win at WM 14 there are circumstances that prevented it from happening before hand. It is rumoured Austin would have got the title at Final Four in February 1997. Then there are other rumours that UT was promised a title reign in 1997 along with Bret Hart. Those were the days of long term booking. Don't forget we had HBK running all over the place and Lord only knows what politics he would have pulled to keep the title if he was "healthy" for most of 1997. They clearly want Orton to main event WM 21 here, but I believe this angle really should have happened post Mania 21. Wanting him to main event WM 21 AND BE OVER as a draw will mean overpushing him now. It is rushed. At least there is some long term planning here. It's better to try to get him over within six months as a main eventer than waiting until Royal Rumble and taking a big gamble with the most important timeframe in the wwe year with trying to get him over as a face with 2 months build. If he flops now at least they can change course with the plans for Mania 21.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Since when is evading a 3 on 1 beatdown "running like a girl"?

 

He got his shot in and left. That's called "smart."

"Dude, that Randy Orton is the MAN. He's so sensible and logical!"

 

 

"I wanna marry him"

[Guest Brian]

They could have dragged it out easily if they had waited a motnh or two to turn on Orton. It should have been treated as this thing where Triple H was both genuinely happy that Orton was hitting it big, but also incredibly jealous. Build off the fact that Triple H couldn't win the title at that point in his life, plus the fact that Orton winning puts Triple H in the back seat, not just as the leader but also as evolution, that Trips is past his time.

 

You could use a number of different feuds to pull it off in between. Just have Orton drop it, which could also double up as a way to test the waters. I'd pull the trigger on an Edge feud, which I talked about in the other thread, that they should have Triple H back in that cerebral assassin role, by revealing that Edge was the one that injured Orton, and using that to spin Edge into a ruthless heel bent on vengeance. Paint Orton as the victim, turn Edge heel. Then, you get to the rumble and Orton overcomes big time odds, and Batista and Flair are the only ones standing in the way.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Benoits promos smoke Ortons. And that's not because Benoits are good, it's because Ortons fucking suck. The TCR is right, his promos sound painfully rehearsed and completely unnatural.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

Since when is evading a 3 on 1 beatdown "running like a girl"?

 

He got his shot in and left. That's called "smart."

"Dude, that Randy Orton is the MAN. He's so sensible and logical!"

 

 

"I wanna marry him"

Yeah I'm totally with you on this point. Can you imagine kids at school:

 

"Hey Steve, did you see RAW on Monday, Randy Orton was the coolest when he ran away from that fight. He's the man! I cant wait to get in a fight so I can run away just like him!"

 

Spiderman wouldn't have made much of a superhero if he would have constantly run away from battles instead of fighting off the evil villians in NYC.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

Claiming that Brock "not being ready" was the reason WM XIX didn't do well. Is like claiming that Eddy sucked as Champion because house show attendance and PPV buys were down compared to Lesnar's reign.

Not exactly. VKM vs Hogan was the main selling point for that show, so I blame them for the poor buyrate. At the same time, Lesnar-Angle and HHH-BT were right in on that 2nd level in terms of selling the PPV, and it didn't draw well. If people were really into the Lesnar chase the buys would have been higher.

 

So its like you cant totally blame them, but at the same time they dont deserve any praise because the show didn't do well.

 

I see this year's Mania in a similar situation. You dont have the year long hype and the 20th anniversary to sell the show. So you have to rely on the guys they have to sell the show. I'm not convinced that Orton's second title chase story will do any better than Lesnar's. Hence the reason for bringing Lesnar's name up.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

Not exactly. VKM vs Hogan was the main selling point for that show, so I blame them for the poor buyrate. At the same time, Lesnar-Angle and HHH-BT were right in on that 2nd level in terms of selling the PPV, and it didn't draw well. If people were really into the Lesnar chase the buys would have been higher.

That PPV also had Austin vs. Rock...

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Claiming that Brock "not being ready" was the reason WM XIX didn't do well. Is like claiming that Eddy sucked as Champion because house show attendance and PPV buys were down compared to Lesnar's reign.

Not exactly. VKM vs Hogan was the main selling point for that show, so I blame them for the poor buyrate. At the same time, Lesnar-Angle and HHH-BT were right in on that 2nd level in terms of selling the PPV, and it didn't draw well. If people were really into the Lesnar chase the buys would have been higher.

 

So its like you cant totally blame them, but at the same time they dont deserve any praise because the show didn't do well.

 

I see this year's Mania in a similar situation. You dont have the year long hype and the 20th anniversary to sell the show. So you have to rely on the guys they have to sell the show. I'm not convinced that Orton's second title chase story will do any better than Lesnar's. Hence the reason for bringing Lesnar's name up.

The problem's with the show were...

 

1. No one wanted to see Hogan/McMahon, and it got all the hype.

 

2. Austin/Rock III wasn't all that hotly anticipated either.

 

3. The build to both title matches were atricous.

 

None of those three problems were Brock Lesnar's or Kurt's fault. Period. Just like I blame the bookers and not Eddy for the recent downturn in business. That's why my analogy was perfect.