Should We Say "Told You So"?

[Guest MikeSC]

French government in crisis mode over journalist hostage drama

 

Sun Aug 29,12:16 PM ET

 

PARIS (AFP) - The French government switched into crisis mode as efforts intensified to secure the release of two journalists kidnapped in Iraq (news - web sites) by Islamic militants demanding that Paris rescind a ban on headscarves in state schools.

 

"The situation is serious. We are devoting all our energy to obtain the release of our countrymen who have been appallingly taken hostage in Iraq," Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said after a second round of emergency talks with top ministers.

 

"We have already reinforced our initiatives in the region and we will continue to do so in the coming hours," he told reporters before heading into a meeting with President Jacques Chirac.

 

It was unclear what channels of influence Paris was using to help win the release of Radio France correspondent Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot of Le Figaro newspaper.

 

Muslim leaders in France and abroad joined the government in urging the Islamic Army in Iraq, the same shadowy Sunni Muslim group that kidnapped and later killed Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni, to free the two men.

 

The group's demand that Paris revoke its ban on headscarves in state schools and universities upped the stakes in the debate over the controversial law, set to go into effect Thursday when classes resume across France.

 

"Together we ask for their release," Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin said after meeting with Muslim leaders, addressing "all those who have some kind of authority or responsibility for the fate" of the two newsmen.

 

"Secularism in our country does not divide -- it brings together all French men and women," he told reporters.

 

Raffarin met with de Villepin, Foreign Minister Michel Barnier, Culture and Communications Minister Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, Education Minister Francois Fillon and Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie on the crisis.

 

"France taken hostage," proclaimed the Sunday paper Le Journal du Dimanche on its front page above photos of Chesnot and Malbrunot.

 

The two newsmen went missing on August 20, the day they were to have left Baghdad for the central holy city of Najaf, then the scene of fierce fighting between US forces and Shiite militia loyal to radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.

 

Late Saturday, Arabic-language Al-Jazeera television broadcast images of Chesnot and Malbrunot -- both Middle East experts with years of experience in the region -- along with the ultimatum from the Islamic Army in Iraq.

 

The militants gave Paris 48 hours to meet their demands, describing the headscarf ban as "an injustice and an attack on the Islamic religion," the Qatar-based network reported, citing its "own sources in Iraq."

 

Muslim leaders condemned the kidnapping, with the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, saying he was "shattered" by the Islamic militants' "unworthy and odious blackmail".

 

"The Muslim community must set itself apart from these schemes that are reprehensible in the eyes of Islam and give no indication that these people are acting in their interest," Boubakeur said.

 

The CFCM is the first officially recognized body for France's Muslim community, which at an estimated five million is the largest in Europe.

 

Controversial Muslim scholar Tariq Ramadan -- a leading opponent of the headscarf ban -- urged Paris not to "give in to this appalling blackmail," calling the kidnapping "unacceptable and contrary to the principles of Islam."

 

 

 

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood condemned the hostage-taking, while in Iraq a strict Wahhabist group and the country's most senior Sunni Muslim scholars, the Committee of Ulemas, called for the immediate release of the two men.

 

But both Iraqi groups also called on France to reconsider its decision to ban "conspicuous" religious insignia like Islamic veils, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in the classroom.

 

The government introduced the law to stop what it saw as an increasingly radical stance by some students to assert their religious identity in schools in violation of a principle that such institutions should be strictly secular.

 

But the legislation was widely criticized in many countries in the Arab world, which charged that it was an example of blatant discrimination against Muslims.

 

Demonstrators have marched against the headscarf law in Bahrain, Egypt, the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and in France itself, where a section of the Muslim community campaigned against the new regulation.

 

Kidnappings of journalists and other foreigners have become common in Iraq as insurgents attempt to force countries to withdraw their troops from the war-ravaged country or extort money.

 

However, the journalists' employers and Sunni Muslim scholars had earlier expressed faith that if they had been kidnapped they would be safe because France had staunchly opposed the US-led war against Iraq.

 

Baldoni was killed after being held for a week, Al-Jazeera had reported. His captors had threatened to execute him unless Italy withdrew its 3,000 troops from Iraq within 48 hours.

So, being nice and understanding STILL causes them to have hostages taken when they do ANYTHING to upset the extremists?

 

So, can any of the critics of the War tell us how, exactly, Bush's actions made us less safe?

-=Mike

...As I said at the time, "If we're nice, maybe they'll kill us last" is a poor policy...

[Guest Anglesault]

"The situation is serious. We are devoting all our energy to obtain the release of our countrymen

...

 

Those guys are fucked.

 

Seriously, though, I never understood the "If we're nice to the homicidal maniacs, they'll be nice to us!" approach.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

French government in crisis mode over journalist hostage drama

 

Sun Aug 29,12:16 PM ET

 

PARIS (AFP) - The French government switched into crisis mode as efforts intensified to secure the release of two journalists kidnapped in Iraq (news - web sites) by Islamic militants demanding that Paris rescind a ban on headscarves in state schools.

 

"The situation is serious. We are devoting all our energy to obtain the release of our countrymen who have been appallingly taken hostage in Iraq," Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said after a second round of emergency talks with top ministers.

 

"We have already reinforced our initiatives in the region and we will continue to do so in the coming hours," he told reporters before heading into a meeting with President Jacques Chirac.

 

It was unclear what channels of influence Paris was using to help win the release of Radio France correspondent Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot of Le Figaro newspaper.

 

Muslim leaders in France and abroad joined the government in urging the Islamic Army in Iraq, the same shadowy Sunni Muslim group that kidnapped and later killed Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni, to free the two men.

 

The group's demand that Paris revoke its ban on headscarves in state schools and universities upped the stakes in the debate over the controversial law, set to go into effect Thursday when classes resume across France.

 

"Together we ask for their release," Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin said after meeting with Muslim leaders, addressing "all those who have some kind of authority or responsibility for the fate" of the two newsmen.

 

"Secularism in our country does not divide -- it brings together all French men and women," he told reporters.

 

Raffarin met with de Villepin, Foreign Minister Michel Barnier, Culture and Communications Minister Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, Education Minister Francois Fillon and Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie on the crisis.

 

"France taken hostage," proclaimed the Sunday paper Le Journal du Dimanche on its front page above photos of Chesnot and Malbrunot.

 

The two newsmen went missing on August 20, the day they were to have left Baghdad for the central holy city of Najaf, then the scene of fierce fighting between US forces and Shiite militia loyal to radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.

 

Late Saturday, Arabic-language Al-Jazeera television broadcast images of Chesnot and Malbrunot -- both Middle East experts with years of experience in the region -- along with the ultimatum from the Islamic Army in Iraq.

 

The militants gave Paris 48 hours to meet their demands, describing the headscarf ban as "an injustice and an attack on the Islamic religion," the Qatar-based network reported, citing its "own sources in Iraq."

 

Muslim leaders condemned the kidnapping, with the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, saying he was "shattered" by the Islamic militants' "unworthy and odious blackmail".

 

"The Muslim community must set itself apart from these schemes that are reprehensible in the eyes of Islam and give no indication that these people are acting in their interest," Boubakeur said.

 

The CFCM is the first officially recognized body for France's Muslim community, which at an estimated five million is the largest in Europe.

 

Controversial Muslim scholar Tariq Ramadan -- a leading opponent of the headscarf ban -- urged Paris not to "give in to this appalling blackmail," calling the kidnapping "unacceptable and contrary to the principles of Islam."

 

 

 

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood condemned the hostage-taking, while in Iraq a strict Wahhabist group and the country's most senior Sunni Muslim scholars, the Committee of Ulemas, called for the immediate release of the two men.

 

But both Iraqi groups also called on France to reconsider its decision to ban "conspicuous" religious insignia like Islamic veils, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in the classroom.

 

The government introduced the law to stop what it saw as an increasingly radical stance by some students to assert their religious identity in schools in violation of a principle that such institutions should be strictly secular.

 

But the legislation was widely criticized in many countries in the Arab world, which charged that it was an example of blatant discrimination against Muslims.

 

Demonstrators have marched against the headscarf law in Bahrain, Egypt, the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and in France itself, where a section of the Muslim community campaigned against the new regulation.

 

Kidnappings of journalists and other foreigners have become common in Iraq as insurgents attempt to force countries to withdraw their troops from the war-ravaged country or extort money.

 

However, the journalists' employers and Sunni Muslim scholars had earlier expressed faith that if they had been kidnapped they would be safe because France had staunchly opposed the US-led war against Iraq.

 

Baldoni was killed after being held for a week, Al-Jazeera had reported. His captors had threatened to execute him unless Italy withdrew its 3,000 troops from Iraq within 48 hours.

So, being nice and understanding STILL causes them to have hostages taken when they do ANYTHING to upset the extremists?

 

So, can any of the critics of the War tell us how, exactly, Bush's actions made us less safe?

-=Mike

...As I said at the time, "If we're nice, maybe they'll kill us last" is a poor policy...

Yeah, and killing innocent civilians won't make others join the cause of the maniacs. Good ploy to win their hearts and minds. A better policy would have been to keep our actions small so any mistakes made along the way would have been harder for any media to blow out of proportion. Yanno, so it at least doesn't LOOK like an occupation! Instead, we get a pot boiling over. Now even more of them are becoming extremists. Just like in Iran, when the iranians felt like they had no one to turn to other than the Ayatollah. Now that country is run by hardliners. Whoops! WHOOPS!

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1195124/posts

 

Yeah, I feel so much safer.

[Guest Paul H.]

It makes me sick to my stomach to see these once great nations like France(lol) and Spain bend to these cowards.You don't negotaite with terrorist you find them,juice them for info and them clip 'em.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

The sad thing is whenever I heard this story I laughed.

 

Hey, not only are the hostages French, but they're JOURNALISTS, too.

 

What's the incentive for trying to keep them alive now?

 

*crosses fingers and hopes to get his very own Site Feedback thread by someone whining about the meaness of the CE folder...*

[Guest MikeSC]

The sad thing is whenever I heard this story I laughed.

 

Hey, not only are the hostages French, but they're JOURNALISTS, too.

 

What's the incentive for trying to keep them alive now?

 

*crosses fingers and hopes to get his very own Site Feedback thread by someone whining about the meaness of the CE folder...*

You can't steal my thunder.

A better policy would have been to keep our actions small so any mistakes made along the way would have been harder for any media to blow out of proportion.

Absolutely impossible. Al Jazeera would have demonized us if we gave the thugs hugs.

Yanno, so it at least doesn't LOOK like an occupation! Instead, we get a pot boiling over. Now even more of them are becoming extremists.

It's not an occupation. Heck, Al-Sadr popped up after Iraq had already been turned over, making it a non-occupation.

Just like in Iran, when the iranians felt like they had no one to turn to other than the Ayatollah. Now that country is run by hardliners. Whoops! WHOOPS!

ACTUALLY, for what it's worth, the Iranians did not want a theocracy. Unfortunately, the Shah had destroyed all political parties --- so the only people who COULD fill the power vacuum were the ayatollahs and imams. The people did not overthrow the Shah in support of Khomeini. He stepped in shortly after, though.

-=Mike

[Slayer 0]

The sad thing is whenever I heard this story I laughed.

 

Hey, not only are the hostages French, but they're JOURNALISTS, too.

 

What's the incentive for trying to keep them alive now?

 

*crosses fingers and hopes to get his very own Site Feedback thread by someone whining about the meaness of the CE folder...*

You can't steal my thunder.

*fires up the "OAO Ban Mike and kkk thread"*

 

There, now both of you can be happy

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Well, where is it, hippie?...

[Guest MikeSC]

Well, where is it, hippie?...

I was disappointed to not see it, too.

-=Mike

[Slayer 0]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

 

....

 

 

Dammit

[Guest MikeSC]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

 

....

 

 

Dammit

I feel the love...hate...whatever.

-=Mike

[Guest Paul H.]

The French are such pussies,they'll probably concede.

 

I don't understand the hate on pre-emptive strikes.

 

Even if Saddam didn't actually have nukes there was a real chance he could have or given plans to terrorists.These fucking Euro's won't ever defend themselves(cept for the British) what's went on in Spain and what went on in Iraq should show these asses that terrorists are nut-jobs and must be dealt with.

 

The minute Iraq gets stabilized,the pressure must be put on Iran and N.korea.Without or without those hoes.

[Slayer 0]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

 

....

 

 

Dammit

I feel the love...hate...whatever.

-=Mike

You should feel the effort I had to exert

 

That's 30 seconds of my life I'll never get back...

 

30 SECONDS!

 

YOU MONSTER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...so, about those French...

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

Not much effort was put forth.

 

Usually one of those CE-is-filled-with-right-wingers threads has some condecending shit saying how he can't post in there anymore because everybody is ignorant. Then we all laugh at said poster and Dr. Tom punks him out.

 

But I guess beggers can't be choosers...

[Guest MikeSC]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

Not much effort was put forth.

 

Usually one of those CE-is-filled-with-right-wingers threads has some condecending shit saying how he can't post in there anymore because everybody is ignorant. Then we all laugh at said poster and Dr. Tom punks him out.

 

But I guess beggers can't be choosers...

Better than the usual "Only reason Mike isn't banned is because Tom likes him" crap.

 

EVERYBODY loves me.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Better than the usual "Only reason Mike isn't banned is because Tom likes him" crap.

I know. Ain't it great?

 

I feel like that little kid who pals up with Scott Farkas in "A Christmas Story..."

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

You guys are expecting me to put out effort?

Not much effort was put forth.

 

Usually one of those CE-is-filled-with-right-wingers threads has some condecending shit saying how he can't post in there anymore because everybody is ignorant. Then we all laugh at said poster and Dr. Tom punks him out.

 

But I guess beggers can't be choosers...

Better than the usual "Only reason Mike isn't banned is because Tom likes him" crap.

 

EVERYBODY loves me.

-=Mike

No, just SOMEBODY.

[Vyce 0]

Better than the usual "Only reason Mike isn't banned is because Tom likes him" crap.

I know. Ain't it great?

 

I feel like that little kid who pals up with Scott Farkas in "A Christmas Story..."

You + "A Christmas Story" reference = TEH AWESOME.

[Guest SP-1]

The conservative haven't had any kind of big advantage here since Marney left.

[Highland 0]

Please. The conservatives still far outnumber the liberals here.

[AndrewTS 0]

"These fucking Euro's won't ever defend themselves(cept for the British)"

 

Don't insult the Brits by lumping them with the Euros.

[Guest SP-1]

Please. The conservatives still far outnumber the liberals here.

Hardly.

 

I'd say it's more or less even. The conservatives just tend to be more sarcastic/"loud" so they seem to stand out more.

[Highland 0]

Are you counting the board as a whole or strictly the CE posters? I can count on one hand the number of regular posters here that are liberal. There's more conservatives here, trust me.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Advantage does not equal Outnumber.

 

Sorta like how those cops didn't have an advantage on Ken Patera and Masa Saito, but they outnumbered them.

 

The thing that got France deeper into this was banning the hejab. Of course, France was right in banning it.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

The conservatives just tend to be more sarcastic/"loud" so they seem to stand out more.

We're just better posters. Go out and buy the Passion, hippie...

[Guest INXS]

Of course, no French journalists would have been in Iraq if it wasn't for the invasion so any "I told you so" thing is irrelevant. Yeah, these Muslim fundamentalist groups that are sprouting up all over Iraq and claiming links to Al Qaeda need to be stopped which is why French diplomats have gone over to communicate with the group..who'd have thunk it..communication! Talking through the problems! Maybe reaching some kind of compromise! preventing the journos from being killed without backing down from disallowing religious dress in school! Can't the French just ignore the hostages and let them be killed like the Americans do? Who do they think they are!?

 

It all boils down to the fact that Iraq, Spain, Bali, Turkey and Russia are now all much less safer places thanks to the inept "War On Terrorism" and illegal invasion of Iraq.

[Slayer 0]

Get out of our thread, Euro-hippie

[Guest INXS]

Get out of our thread, Euro-hippie

Try level headed. Or less blinkered. I'm certainly no hippie. Nor do I have any particular affinity with Europe - certainly not France in particular. And as for the "our thread" part - you sound like a child. It's a message board - guess what? Other members are going to post in threads! Shock horror! You might disagree with their point of view! How dare they!

[Guest MikeSC]

Of course, no French journalists would have been in Iraq if it wasn't for the invasion so any "I told you so" thing is irrelevant.

But...but...France OPPOSED this. France WAS THEIR BEST FRIEND --- and those monkeys STILL took hostages.

 

Obviously, being "friendly" isn't enough for the sub-human monkeys who think taking innocents as hostages is just peachy.

 

Just carpet bomb the whole lot of them. Blow up that damned mosque that al-Sadr was hiding out in, too --- just for the hell of it.

Yeah, these Muslim fundamentalist groups that are sprouting up all over Iraq and claiming links to Al Qaeda need to be stopped which is why French diplomats have gone over to communicate with the group..who'd have thunk it..communication!

Tell the journalists how well that worked out for them. You'd think openly and visibly opposing the whole deal might keep the French safe --- but banning head scarves was, apparently, an unforgivable sin.

 

Yeah, negotiate with THOSE thugs. Brilliant.

 

Did your testicles ever drop?

Talking through the problems! Maybe reaching some kind of compromise!

Yeah, that works WONDERS! BWA HA HA HA HA! As was said earlier, "If we're nice, they'll kill us last" is a horrible policy to take.

preventing the journos from being killed without backing down from disallowing religious dress in school! Can't the French just ignore the hostages and let them be killed like the Americans do? Who do they think they are!?

Of course, negotiating with terrorists only encourages MORE terrorism.

It all boils down to the fact that Iraq, Spain, Bali, Turkey and Russia are now all much less safer places thanks to the inept "War On Terrorism" and illegal invasion of Iraq.

Wow, didn't know the War in Iraq caused the Russian/Chechen War --- which, mind you, has been quite ugly for about a decade now --- to get "bad".

 

Learn a little history, would ya?

Try level headed.

Is that a euphemism for "Retarded"?

Nor do I have any particular affinity with Europe - certainly not France in particular. And as for the "our thread" part - you sound like a child. It's a message board - guess what? Other members are going to post in threads! Shock horror! You might disagree with their point of view! How dare they

I'd say "dig the sand out of your vagina", but I fear that'd hit too close to home for you.

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Sandy vagina is the new Jumped the shark.