Something that's been bugging me

[Guest wildpegasus]

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I hate trotting out the old "You can't say SHIT unless you're a WORKER" argument, cuz I've had it used on me by plenty of wannabes myself. But, the fact remains: there are certain things about wrestling that you'll only learn by actually doing it, that cannot be adequately grasped by any other means. This isn't boy's club bullshit, it's the truth. Any wrestler, no matter how modest or honest a person they happen to be, will agree with me here.

I've always wondered about this. A little off topic here but, oh well, this interests me. I wouldn't mind talking about this sometime. If I could compare it to other things in life that is true. You just can't know everything from the outside.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

No, but his running big boot sure as hell tends to be. 

 

No it's not. They always turn and take it in the ear or the cheek bone. The high kick is never really that hard anyway with Kawada spinning off his pivot boot just before or right as it connects, making it into an almost glancing blow.

 

The only time Kawada really stiffed people was with the punts to the lower back, to the chest, and his chops. If he was really kicking people in the face than you'd see visible signs of it. Sometimes with his Spinkick with the boot missing or hitting the shoulder and his thigh actually hitting their chest to make sound.

 

When he does turn lose and stiff with his high kicks or accidently puts too much on them, you'll notice they always bleed from the ear or maybe the cheekbone...not the face.

 

Once again: Storm has actually been there and done that, while we're just talking about it.  I'd rather trust Storm's opinion on the matter than yours. 

 

So you honestly think that Kawada couldn't work with someone with an injured neck, despite contradicting evidence at 6/3/94. Fuck what Lance Storm says, especially if there's video tape evidence that suggests otherwise. So what if he's a professional wrestler, I've probably seen more Kawada matches than him.

 

Despite damn near everyone who ever knew him's testimony that Funk is one of the smartest guys in wrestling? 

 

Their damn fools as well if they think Tanaka was better than Baba's boys in 96.

 

Still doesn't change his ability to tell if someone's hitting him really hard in the face.

 

I'd say he's full of shit there too, especially since I've seen him work with Kawada in several matches.

 

BTW, yes I have friends who are wrestlers..I do live in Louisville afterall, where it seems like everyone's been trained at somepoint. Pretty much every wrestler passes through here sooner or later, and it's not uncommon to meet someone "in the business" on a regular basis. So you can leave the "I spoke to so and so or actually wrestled" nonsense at home, it doesn't impress people from these parts.

 

I guess you could even say I've been in the ring since I've took a few bumps and been stiffed..or maybe not. But so fucking what. It doesn't make my opinion any more credible than it already is. And as far as my friends go, I think they have horrible taste in wrestling. Hulk Hogan, Andre, and Sabu are the greatest ever types. Ugh, I feel dirty just mentionting this. I sound like you now....blah.

 

[Guest kjh]

I've been hit by everyone from the Harris twins to Gypsy Joe, so I feel pretty confident that I know more about the difference between worked and stiff than you do.

You've been in the ring with all the greats then.

 

Marks never get paid. I always do.

 

The biggest marks out there are the people in the business themselves. You saying "Tracy Smothers told me this", "ask Scott Hudson and Joel Gertner that", "Ricky Morton told me this", etc, etc, just goes to prove that.

 

Williams would know as well as anyone.The question is would he have a reason to lie about Kawada's stiffness? I mean making comments like that would hurt his tough guy reputation. It wouldn't make sense for him to say something like that.

 

Unless he wanted to imply that he was a much better worker than Kawada as he didn't work too stiff. I'm sure we could find some workers out there who thought Steve Williams worked too stiff as well. Should we believe them too?

[Tim Cooke 0]

This is the THREAD of the day.

 

I love it.

 

When I get home from work today (where I get paid too!), I will watch some great Lance Storm matches and shun off watching anything with that too stiff Kawada character.

 

Damn I wish I was in the business.

 

Tim

[Nevermortal 0]

Re: Samoa Joe

 

Aside from a select few matches (v. Ki being one of them), I've never seen Joe just beat the shit out of the other guy for no apparent reason. Joe's very great at making his wrestling look stiff, but not actuall BE stiff.

 

Low Ki on the other hand, well, that's a different story. Low Ki's a fucking dick in the ring. Just take a look at the matches with Deranged, the Special K 6-man, his infamous KO against Danny Maff, and the rumor that Wataru Sakata (sp?) busted up Ki's jaw for working too stiff with people in ZERO-ONE. I'd say he's the one with less control over his kicks, chops, and strikes.

 

But then again, I'm not really complaining. People getting hit for real is great entertainment. :-)

[Tim Cooke 0]

Jingus writes: "In a lot of posts and show reviews, I've noticed recently that the stiffer a match is, the more it tends to be praised."

 

I don't know about that. The last reviews I have read from people who I actually believe have something worthwhile to say about wrestling praise matches due to smart work, selling, move set, etc.

 

 

Jingus: "Why is that? Wrestling is fake, it's a work; we've all known that for years. What makes a match better when the wrestlers are legitimately beating the shit out of each other? I've seen guys like Samoa Joe, Super Dragon, Low-Ki, and so on be praised ridiculously by fans for how hard they hit other people. And I've known plenty of workers who actually pride themselves on stiffing the hell out of their opponents. To them, I say: try that on Tracey Smothers, and good luck surviving the night."

 

If that is how they want to work, that is their choice. Whether or not they will actually achieve a worthwhile match or have a long term future is another question.

 

 

Jingus: "To me, this is stupid. Hitting another guy REALLY hard may pop the crowd tonight, but it tends to cause injuries and shorten careers in the long term. To me, a lot of the stiffness marks are the modern-day equivalent of the "vampires" back in the ECW days of the 90s, guys who didn't give a shit about the show, the match, or the wrestlers; all they wanted to see was somebody bleed a lot. Lots of smart marks today seem like they'll bury a match unless it's stiff, and I think that attitude is selfish and physically unrealistic."

 

 

I can almost agree with this if you are talking about reckless stiffness that Low Ki and Super Dragon have been known to produce. But working stiff doesn't equate to being unsafe.

 

"Like the guys who'll claim that Kawada is the greatest wrestler of his time, and simply ignore the fact that he's obviously kicking guys right in the face way too hard."

 

I believe he broke Misawa's orbital bone with a kick. I really don't see any other injuries from his "way too hard" kicks. Going with that track record, you could either say that Kawada's work is tight and stiff yet also safe or you could could lump Owen Hart and Steve Austin with Kawada, both of whom have hurt opponents to the point of career damaging injuries yet are "safe" workers by most standards. You can't have it both ways.

 

And the "wrestler A said this and I am more inclined to believe him than you" is in one ear and out the other. Rey Jr. and Konan saying Sabu was the best wrestler back in 1996 is another one to add to the Terry Funk comment on Masato Tanaka.

 

Keith took care of the name dropping.

 

Question for you. Has Samoa Joe ever injured anyone with his "overly stiff" work?

 

Tim