Spain Makes No Sense

[Guest MikeSC]

Funding for Church to be slashed by Spanish

By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid

(Filed: 25/09/2004)

 

The Spanish government sparked a furious row yesterday after it emerged that it had drawn up a timetable to halve state funding of the Roman Catholic Church and to ban crucifixes from public buildings.

 

 

The Socialist government has already pedged to confront the Church ideologically and fiscally and to transform Spain into a fully secular society by scrapping the Church's "privileged position in society".

 

The newspaper El Mundo reported yesterday that the government has now drawn up a timetable to break the bonds, removing any lingering hopes that it might reach an accommodation.

 

The government plans to put an end to the arrangement whereby Spaniards can offer a percentage of their taxes to the Church. This arrangement contributes £54 million a year to Church funds.

 

Governments in the past have made up the remainder directly or indirectly through government funds paid to Church organisations. This funding, which was agreed in accords signed 17 years ago, is also now under review.

 

El Mundo complained in an editorial yesterday that the government's "secularism should not be used as a weapon against half the country". Although only a minority are regular churchgoers Spain continues to be "a sociologically Catholic country", it said. In a reference to the Spanish Civil War the editorial said: "If we should learn anything from recent history that it is a mistake to use secularism as a weapon against believers."

 

Earlier plans included a pledge to scrap the promise of the previous centre-Right government of Jose Maria Aznar to re-introduce obligatory religious instruction. The new government said religious education would be optional.

 

It is also to scrap the existing system whereby teachers of religion are paid by the government but proposed by bishops. The teachers will now be subject to secular employment regulations.

 

The newspaper reported that a commission under a senior government figure, Gregorio Peces-Barba, is drawing up proposals to eliminate Christian symbols, such as the crucifix, from state-owned public buildings such as schools, prisons and military headquarters.

 

Mr Zapatero's first act after winning the general election in March was withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq, to the irritation of America and Britain. He then turned on the Church, which he views as part of the "old Spain", announcing a string of reforms that have infuriated ecclesiastical authorities.

 

Mr Zapatero plans an entire programme of social reform, including equality for homosexuals, allowing women to inherit the Spanish throne, liberalising abortion laws, lifting restrictions on embryo research and cracking down on domestic violence.

 

In July, the Church struck back, springing an ambush on Mr Zapatero when he accompanied King Juan Carlos to the annual national offering at the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela. With 52 clergymen looking on, the Archbishop of Santiago, Julian Barrio, let loose a withering denunciation, accusing Mr Zapatero of perverting the natural order.

 

He declared that marriage was "essentially heterosexual" and that the Church had every right to interfere in national politics "in cases of people's fundamental rights, or the salvation of souls."

 

Recent surveys show that 80 per cent of Spaniards consider themselves to be Catholic but half of that figure admit 'almost never' going to church. Only 20 per cent of Spaniards claim to go regularly to church.

 

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country's one million Muslims.

 

Although Spain has been a Catholic country since the expulsion of the Moors in 1492 is has also long had a tradition of anti-clericalism that flared violently during the civil war. The old saying was that "a Spaniard is always behind a priest, either with a candle or a stake."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...25/ixworld.html

 

OK, Spain has decided to slash its funding of the Catholic Church. Not a big deal in and of itself. A secular gov't is not a bad thing.

 

However, cutting the funding of the Catholic Church while INCREASING funding of the Islamic mosques and education just makes NO sense.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

"Please don't bomb us again Mr. Terrorists..."

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Well.. i'd imagine this move may not go over well with some voters. For example.. a lot of the Catholic ones.

[Guest SP-1]

*sigh*

[Guest Anglesault]

I'm sure there's logic in there somewhere

[2GOLD 0]

I don't see anything wrong with any of it.

So they want to give Islamic religion more money so they can get a better understanding and increase education of the real islam.

 

I'm not seeing the horrible thing here. I could have sworn increased education IS what we wanted.

[Guest SP-1]

Ahh, but which Islam will they promote? A peaceful version? The extremists will still be pissy. You can't win there. The belief systems obviously differ somewhere and one of them is obviously a violent offshoot.

 

Curious: why ban the crucifix?

[2GOLD 0]

But you have a violent center of every religion. It's worth a shot and we can't be like, "oh, we want education for Islam" and then when someone does such a thing go, "what the hell is wrong with you?!?!?!"

 

Gotta make our minds. Either we want the education of the true Islam or we don't.

[Guest Shoes Head]

Thing is, the "true" Islam may not call for the killing of innocents...but it most certainly DOES call for world domination.

 

Some muslims go about it by deceptive missionary work (Ahmad Deedat), some go about it by killing everyone (Usama bin Ladin, Hamas), and some call for political parties and a gradual hostile takeover (Hizbut Tahreer in London).

 

Also, it no doubt calls for the shunning of western societal customs. Men intermixing with women in the workplace, alcohol and pork in the marketplace, and primetime sitcoms featuring oh-so-loveable fags are just never going to happen. Islam is your life, it's not a part of it. Simply put, the true Islam, textually, is by nature "extreme."

 

Thing is, so is orthodox judaism. But you'll never hear our President speak against that. How odd.

[Guest SP-1]

But you have a violent center of every religion. It's worth a shot and we can't be like, "oh, we want education for Islam" and then when someone does such a thing go, "what the hell is wrong with you?!?!?!"

 

Gotta make our minds. Either we want the education of the true Islam or we don't.

To be fair, the Crusades don't betray a violent center to Chistianity. Biblical teaching (correct biblical teaching, which interprets the Old Testament with the new and establishes the new commands) doesn't teach violence.

 

And yes: educating people on a peaceful version of Islam is needed. But that isn't really Islam at its origin or at its core. As Shoes Head said: at its core it's about dominating land mass.

[Guest MikeSC]

But you have a violent center of every religion. It's worth a shot and we can't be like, "oh, we want education for Islam" and then when someone does such a thing go, "what the hell is wrong with you?!?!?!"

 

Gotta make our minds. Either we want the education of the true Islam or we don't.

The problem is --- I know of NO Islamic group that promotes education of "true" Islam. The Islam that is taught has a nasty habit of being of the Wahhabist strain, which is well-funded and virulently anti-west.

To be fair, the Crusades don't betray a violent center to Chistianity. Biblical teaching (correct biblical teaching, which interprets the Old Testament with the new and establishes the new commands) doesn't teach violence.

 

And yes: educating people on a peaceful version of Islam is needed. But that isn't really Islam at its origin or at its core. As Shoes Head said: at its core it's about dominating land mass.

Honestly, the problem with the Crusades, in my opinion, was the church completely bastardizing the message of Jesus.

 

The Reformation, to me, changed the Christian faith from a bastardized faith dominated by less-than-honorable men to a worthy, noble faith. Yes, some problems exist, but Christianity has since, for the most part, been a force for good.

 

Islam needs a Reformation. More than anything else.

-=Mike

[Guest SP-1]

To be fair, the Crusades don't betray a violent center to Chistianity. Biblical teaching (correct biblical teaching, which interprets the Old Testament with the new and establishes the new commands) doesn't teach violence.

 

And yes: educating people on a peaceful version of Islam is needed. But that isn't really Islam at its origin or at its core. As Shoes Head said: at its core it's about dominating land mass.

Honestly, the problem with the Crusades, in my opinion, was the church completely bastardizing the message of Jesus.

 

The Reformation, to me, changed the Christian faith from a bastardized faith dominated by less-than-honorable men to a worthy, noble faith. Yes, some problems exist, but Christianity has since, for the most part, been a force for good.

 

Islam needs a Reformation. More than anything else.

-=Mike

I'm Protestant Evangelical so yes, I'd tend to agree with you. I mentioned the Crusades because that's usually what's thrown up in Christians' faces to compare Christianity to radical Islam.

[Styles 0]

Thing is, so is orthodox judaism. But you'll never hear our President speak against that. How odd.

Orthodox Jews don't blow up busses. After being oppressed since basically the dawn of time, they just want to be left alone.

 

ANyway, it seems like Spain is trying to mimmick France....

[Guest Shoes Head]

Orthodox Jews don't blow up busses. After being oppressed since basically the dawn of time, they just want to be left alone.

Israel's current climate of anti-palestinian sentiment and portrayal of the ENTIRE palestinian population as subhuman terrorists is disgusting. She is gradually creating a framework in which genocide can, and some (admittedly leftists) say is already occuring. To boot, reading Talmudic description of goyim and how filthy and unworthy gentiles are isn't any better than the Koranic description of "kafirs." Don't mistake any of this as anti-semitism. I'm merely pointing out that both religions' base texts belittle and degrade those who don't follow their way.

 

To spider and mike's credit, christianity doesn't fall into this category since it's just a bunch of rituals for atonement for your ill-defined sins.

[Vyce 0]

Islam needs a Reformation. More than anything else.

-=Mike

As my grandmother always use to say, wish in one hand and shit in another - and see which fills up the quickest.

 

It doesn't matter how much they need it. In this day and age, if one Islamic Martin Luther stepped forward, there'd be a million zealots (at least) ready and willing to kill him for it.

[Styles 0]

Orthodox Jews don't blow up busses. After being oppressed since basically the dawn of time, they just want to be left alone.

Israel's current climate of anti-palestinian sentiment and portrayal of the ENTIRE palestinian population as subhuman terrorists is disgusting. She is gradually creating a framework in which genocide can, and some (admittedly leftists) say is already occuring. To boot, reading Talmudic description of goyim and how filthy and unworthy gentiles are isn't any better than the Koranic description of "kafirs." Don't mistake any of this as anti-semitism. I'm merely pointing out that both religions' base texts belittle and degrade those who don't follow their way.

 

To spider and mike's credit, christianity doesn't fall into this category since it's just a bunch of rituals for atonement for your ill-defined sins.

Time to dust off that old chestnut....ISRAEL MYTH AND FACT OF THE DAY~!!!! Courtesy of your friends at http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

 

MYTH

 

"Israel is pursuing a policy of genocide toward the Palestinians that is comparable to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews."

 

FACT

 

 

This is perhaps the most odious claim made by Israel's detractors. The Nazis' objective was the systematic extermination of every Jew in Europe. Israel is seeking peace with its Palestinian neighbors. More than one million Arabs live as free and equal citizens in Israel. Of the Palestinians in the territories, 98 percent live under the civil administration of the Palestinian Authority. While Israel sometimes employs harsh measures against Palestinians in the territories to protect Israeli citizens – Jews and non-Jews – from the incessant campaign of terror waged by the PA and Islamic radicals, there is no plan to persecute, exterminate, or expel the Palestinian people.

 

In response to one such comparison, by a poet who referred to the "Zionist SS," The New Republic's literary editor Leon Wieseltier observed:

 

The view that Zionism is Nazism — there is no other way to understand the phrase “Zionist SS” — is not different in kind from the view that the moon is cheese. It is not only spectacularly wrong, it is also spectacularly unintelligent. I will not offend myself (that would be self-hate speech!) by patiently explaining why the State of Israel is unlike the Third Reich, except to say that nothing that has befallen the Palestinians under Israel's control may responsibly be compared to what befell the Jews under Germany's control, and that a considerable number of the people who have toiled diligently to find peace and justice for the Palestinians, and a solution to this savage conflict, have been Israeli, some of them even Israeli prime ministers. There is no support for the Palestinian cause this side of decency that can justify the locution “Zionist SS.”10

 

The absurdity of the charge is also clear from the demography of the disputed territories. While detractors make outrageous claims about Israel committing genocide or ethnic cleansing, the Palestinian population has continued to explode. In Gaza, for example, the population increased from 731,000 in July 1994 to 1,225,911 in July 2002, an increase of 68 percent. The growth rate was 3.95 percent, one of the highest in the world. According to the UN, the total Palestinian population in all the disputed territories (they include Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem) was 1,006,000 in 1950, and rose to 1,094,000 in 1970, and exploded to 2,152,000 in 1990. Anthony Cordesman notes the increase "was the result of improvements in income and health services" made by the Israel. Since the intifada, the Palestinian population has continue to grow exponentially, increasing more than 20 percent just from 1995 to 2,000 when it reached 3,183,000.11

 

So that takes care of the Israel is or could be on the way to committing genocide nonsense.

 

And to explain how treatment of Muslims in Israel is far nicer than that of Jews in Muslim countries we go to an OMG DAILY DOUBLE~!!!

 

MYTH

 

“Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”

 

FACT

 

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22

 

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23

 

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).

 

Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24

 

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.

 

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

 

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

 

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

 

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27

 

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28

 

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

 

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29

 

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30

 

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

 

 

To sum it up: Israelies wouldn't give a damn about the Palestinians if they would stop trying to murder them. Although it has happened in rare cases, you don't hear much about Jewish terrorism. They've been chased out of and/or killed in every place they've tried to live, which is why they need Israel. The Muslims control a huge part of the world and could provide citizenship for the Palestinians, yet they want to continue the war and hate and exile them to keep them disenfranchised. If the Palestinians don't want to be stereotyped, they should not condone murderers and racists that basically run their society instead of parading in the street like animals everytime a new "martyr" has come about.

[Guest Shoes Head]

I'll add my rebuttal when I wake up tomorrow. But nice google for a pro-Israel site to support you stance, tho.

[Guest MikeSC]

Orthodox Jews don't blow up busses. After being oppressed since basically the dawn of time, they just want to be left alone.

Israel's current climate of anti-palestinian sentiment and portrayal of the ENTIRE palestinian population as subhuman terrorists is disgusting. She is gradually creating a framework in which genocide can, and some (admittedly leftists) say is already occuring. To boot, reading Talmudic description of goyim and how filthy and unworthy gentiles are isn't any better than the Koranic description of "kafirs." Don't mistake any of this as anti-semitism. I'm merely pointing out that both religions' base texts belittle and degrade those who don't follow their way.

 

To spider and mike's credit, christianity doesn't fall into this category since it's just a bunch of rituals for atonement for your ill-defined sins.

Gee, Palestinians are permitted to practice their religion and are allowed to vote.

 

Man, that is mean.

 

And the population of the Palestinian areas has gone up. I guess, though, that Israel is just real weak with that whole "attempted genocide" thing.

 

You can say all you want about Israel --- if they behaved as Palestine has, there wouldn't be a Palestinian left alive.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I'll add my rebuttal when I wake up tomorrow.  But nice google for a pro-Israel site to support you stance, tho.

Slapnuts doesn't need to Google -- he pretty much uses that Web site any time there's an Israel argument at this place.

 

Nice try at being snide/humorous/whatever it-was-you-were-trying-to-be, tho...

[Guest MikeSC]

I'll add my rebuttal when I wake up tomorrow.  But nice google for a pro-Israel site to support you stance, tho.

Slapnuts doesn't need to Google -- he pretty much uses that Web site any time there's an Israel argument at this place.

 

Nice try at being snide/humorous/whatever it-was-you-were-trying-to-be, tho...

Don't patronize him.

 

That attempt at snarkiness sucked.

 

Hard.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

OK, sorry...

[Guest SP-1]

You're better than that, kkk.

 

Stop hiding the "A" material.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

The 'Palestineans' and their leadership are something that only fools and the ignorant get behind. The leadership sucks. That's the top reason against any Palestinean state. If you give them a state and Arafat dies, who takes power? If you give them a state and Arafat isn't the leader, who is the leader? will this leader be from an organization which calls for the destruction of Israel? if so, then it's dangerous to create such a state.

 

You know that if the home next to you was sold to a family that wanted to kill you, you wouldn't like that.

 

The Arab leadership has also screwed over the 'Palestineans' since it was better to their agenda to leave them miserable as opposed to helping them find new homes.

 

The leadership which got them out of their homes in 1948 also screwed them.

 

Even opportunists like Osama bin Laden are just using the Palestineans to enhance their image. For OBL, it's a recruitment tool. You can't recruit people into your group if you don't say stuff that they'll agree with. Same goes for Saddam Hussein.

 

Islam is more peaceful than really seen, but soon enough, the Wahabbi fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia and other places will clash with the other Muslims. Any Martin Luther in the Middle East will likely have to get a huge bodyguard group.

 

As for the Israeli settlements. Even with that, they're better than the Palestineans. I haven't seen anything to suggest that there's extraordinary oppression of the 'Palestineans' in Israel. There's stuff that is done for security reasons (such as the wall and so on). Stuff is also done after the 'Palestineans' provoke the Israelis. Sure, the Israelis have superior firepower and the 'Palestineans' should have noticed that. They should have realized that throwing stuff at them doesn't work out well for them.

 

As for the Hamas assassinations. I wish there was a better way to get rid of those Hamas leaders. Such as a way to reduce civilian casualties, but if those people are around the leaders, then they might die too. The Palestineans are better off each a Hamas leader is killed.

 

Man.. I really skew to the right on Israel. Nah, it's not really the right. It's just that the Palestineans are fuckups.

[Guest Shoes Head]

Ok, to clarify, I am NOT a palestinian sympathizer. As has been stated, they've arguably done more to fuck up their own cause than Israel has done. Even some wahabi scholars (among them head Mufti Abdul Aziz Ibn Baz before he died) have pointed out that Israeli occupation is part of a punishment from god for the sinfulness and pathetic state of muslims worldwide.

 

However, my point was that

 

A) The texts of Orthodox Judaism are just as hateful and extreme as the texts of sunni and shi'ee Islam. Talmud features just as much "hate speech" as the Koran (neither support suicide bombing however). and

B) Israel's human rights abuses are just as despicable as those of the palestinians. They're excused by Mike (who I've been ignoring ever since his disgusting "Let Allah sort them out." comment) and the rest of the hawks in a "shit happens when you defend yourself" excuse. Unfortunately..destroying farmland, blowing up radio stations , and torturing detainees can't be considered self defense by anyone with sense.

 

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23

 

Why would anyone quote 1500 year old papyri which Daniel Pipes and Patricia Crone don't even consider authentic to support a modern day position?! Assuming the incident in question even happened, it's explained by muslims as "self defense." What a parallel.

 

There are no good guys and bad guys in this situation. I truly believe that the Israeli occupation of the region began illegally. Also, I believe that it's too fucking late for the palestinians to do any goddamn thing about it. In the face of the fact that the total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign aid budget, it's odd that I can't find one reason as to why. The only reason I take an interest in the mideast is because the U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen. That would be nice if we got something in return, but I can't imagine what Israel has ever done for us besides offering us a useless ally in the region.

 

EDIT: Typos.

[Guest MikeSC]

The moment Israel specifically targets innocents for no reason other than them being Jewish, then I'll give a damn.

 

Otherwise, Israel should do all they can do to expedite the terrorists' desire to meet Allah personally. Let their God decide who is innocent, since NONE of them seem to be worth a damn,

 

The destruction of farmland --- whose fault is it? It's the fault of the sub-human monkeys who decide that firing rockets is a good idea. If the "innocents" won't stand up to the thugs who "represent" them, my level of sympathy for them is non-existant.

 

If Palestinians left them alone, the Israelis would happily let them live in the misery that Arab governments so utterly adore. Will the Palestinians leave Israel alone? Absolutely not.

 

You don't want to get eradicated? Don't attack a country that could easily wipe you off the face of the Earth.

-=Mike