When did Workrate start to matter in WWF?

[strummer 0]

In the 1980s Vince McMahon was criticized by the smart wrestling community for not focusing enough on workrate. The main events were filled with very poor wrestlers like Studd, Bundy, Kamala, Andre, Zeus, Beefcake, One Man Gang, Warrior, Hogan, etc. Fans still packed arenas and responded to the matches, even though they were considered very poor quality wise. When do you think the transition was to the fans actually expected quality wrestling in WWF? Was it through the pushes of Bret and Shawn? or much later around 2000? When do you think WWF fans started to recognize talent in wrestlers and respond to them over the larger than life characters? As much as Shawn and Bret brought to the table, I think 2000 changed the ways of thinking of the fans.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'd say Bret and Shawn helped bring it out, but in 2000 it was put at the forefront, as Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, Rock, Trips, and Angle were all top stars and could GO.

 

I still don't think pure wrestling ability has much to do with whether or not fans like a wrestler - that's more to charisma and character - but it certainly does help more than anything else could.

[Guest wildpegasus]

In the 1980s Vince McMahon was criticized by the smart wrestling community for not focusing enough on workrate. The main events were filled with very poor wrestlers like Studd, Bundy, Kamala, Andre, Zeus, Beefcake, One Man Gang, Warrior, Hogan, etc. Fans still packed arenas and responded to the matches, even though they were considered very poor quality wise. When do you think the transition was to the fans actually expected quality wrestling in WWF? Was it through the pushes of Bret and Shawn? or much later around 2000? When do you think WWF fans started to recognize talent in wrestlers and respond to them over the larger than life characters? As much as Shawn and Bret brought to the table, I think 2000 changed the ways of thinking of the fans.

What do you mean when you say workrate? Great wrestlers or the rate of work that's happening in the ring? ie how hard you are working?

 

 

 

The Bulldogs, Savage, Santana and the Hart Foundation brought some workrate back in the day. I think there's always been someone to keep workrate fans happy over the years. Bret Hart and Michaels did help the workrate a lot and raised people's expectations on workrate. I would say WCW wetted people appetite for workrate and that in turn probably made some of the crossover fans want it in the WWF as well.

 

But than you have the attitude era which is a hard era to analyze as far as the relationship between fans and workrate went.

[strummer 0]

When I say workrate, I basically mean that the company was trying to put on good matches, they might not have been all been great, but the effort was there to put on good matches. In the 80s, the company did not care if the matches were good.

 

Yes, I do agree that pure in-ring talent is not guarenteed to get someone over. It's only one part of the equation

 

I just always hear smarks say "Things are different now" "Fans recognize talent now" "You have to have good matches on top" I just wanted to know why the fans all of a sudden could recognize good wrestling when before they supposedly couldn't.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

When I say workrate, I basically mean that the company was trying to put on good matches, they might not have been all been great, but the effort was there to put on good matches. In the 80s, the company did not care if the matches were good.

 

Yes, I do agree that pure in-ring talent is not guarenteed to get someone over. It's only one part of the equation

 

I just always hear smarks say "Things are different now" "Fans recognize talent now" "You have to have good matches on top" I just wanted to know why the fans all of a sudden could recognize good wrestling when before they supposedly couldn't.

They always could. Hence Randy Savage becoming huge despite being fucked over numerous times.

[Guest Coffey]

The workrate still only matters to "smart" fans. We're the minority.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The workrate still only matters to "smart" fans.

Not true. WWE fans in general have become accustomed to a certain level of workrate in the main event, and, while the casuals might not obsess over workrate as much as the 'smart fans' do, they still expect a certain level of quality in the top matches.

[BHK 0]

The quality of the matches is not the only thing that matters, but consider this:

 

the company's most successful year monetarily, was also their most successful year quality wise, 2000.

 

I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

Vince has to realize, that the core of the business is wrestling. You have great matches, and you build stoires around them. you do NOT have great sotries with medicore matches, it jsut DOESN'T work as well.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

My take: I think it was a gradual process rather than any specific era. The marks remembered mathces like Savage-Steamboat, the Harts-Bulldogs tag series, Flair-Sting and Flair-Steamboat in the late 80's because they were great matches.

 

Bret-Perfect from SummerSlam 91 was starting to take on that technical 'classic' feel with the marks after the event which was one of the reasons Bret was given the title in late 92. He had a big following with fans who could see he was clearly a better wrestler than Hogan, whose act was at the time growing repititious and tiresome. Bret was constantly referred to as 'the best technical wrestler in the WWF' by announcer Gorilla Monsoon, but the marks weren't ready for 'the best technical wrestler' also being the champion - he wasn't larger than life - hence the step back into the Hogan/Yokozuna/Luger debacle the following year. Business had already decreased but hit the skids completely with this apparent confusion in direction.

 

So things flip-flopped back again. Bret got another run in 94 and had a good run with his brother Owen - but business was still down. They ditched Bret and went with Diesel in 95 - a poor wrestler with a good look, Vince hoping to reclaim the Hogan era. Business got even worse. Another flip-flop and they decided to go with Shawn for 96. Match quality picked up but once again, business did not. The WWF had no clue what to do.

 

What was really significant at this time was what was happening over on the other channel in WCW. Their ratings were really picking up. While the WCW main events of 96-97 were filled with bygone stars, invariably poor workers (who, to be fair, were charismatic enough to carry the load) the undercard was padded out with great workers from the indies, Japan and Mexico. They put on terrific matches and stayed away from the main events. This led to the situation where marks began to expect good but unimportant matches on the undercard and poor but entertaining matches headlining. It was a formula that worked, for a while.

 

WWF picked up on the fact that their main guys at the time (Shawn, Bret, Bulldog, Owen, Austin, Vader, Foley, Taker) were all much better workers than the old guard on the other channel and mocked WCW for it. Ridiculing Hogan vs. Piper in late 97 as "The Age In The Cage" comes to mind. WWF had a dearth of undercard talent back then (cause WCW had bought everyone) but their guys on top could really go. The marks gradually began to take notice. When the over-the-top storylines of the Austin Attitude Era in 98-99 made the main event scene more entertaining, as well as better quality, than WCW the pendulum swung to them and WWF regained their fanbase. Although with Austin's neck injury the main event style was mainly brawling - it was damn fine quality brawling, well constructed with lots of psychology. The same could not be said for WCW where past-their-primes Hogan and Nash and green-as-hell Goldberg were ruling the roost and the talented undercard were growing increasingly frustrated with their lack of upward mobility.

 

99-00: WWF signs Chris Jericho ... Austin takes time off for injury ... Rock & HHH step up to the top of the card, both of whom have improved into stellar workers ... Kurt Angle debuts ... WWF signs The Radicalz - Benoit, Eddie, Malenko & Saturn ... From Royal Rumble 00 to SummerSlam 00 WWF have their best ever run of PPVs quality wise (discounting KOTR) ... Their best undercard talent gone, WCW is going down the tubes fast ... WWF has its most profitable year ever ... With such great talent, the fans come to expect - and get - high quality matches from top to bottom of the card ... Expectations are changed forever ... 2000 is the high water mark in every aspect of the WWF's existence and to put the icing on the cake they buy out WCW in early 2001 ...

 

So where did it all go wrong. The WCW InVasion angle. Fans couldn't take seriously the threat of a company they had been taught to ridicule, even though the workers they initially brought in were generally good talent. When the good (read 'inexpensive') WCW talent wasn't increasing business they brought in the bad WCW talent, the talent that brought more mainstream recognition but couldn't work high quality matches. Business, unsurprisingly, hit the skids again - as it had done in 1993 when they took a step back away from quality. Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash & Scott Hall - the cornerstones of the old WCW reneissance - were brought in in 2002. While this would have been fine for a nostalgic undercard angle, they ended up putting the title back on Hogan. Business got even worse. They panicked. Instead of pushing the good workers the fans wanted to see (the fans were just willing RVD & Booker T to the top at this time), they brought in a degenerating Scott Steiner. They tried giving Hogan and Nash another run on top. They brought in Goldberg in 2003, who still hadn't learned how to work. Business, unsurprisingly, did not pick up.

 

But the worst thing to happen for the fans was the introduction of 'WWE Style'. In an attempt to limit injuries (and to not show up the increasingly poor guys at the top of the card), the workers were all forced to eliminate high-risk moves from their repertoires and all work a certain generic matwork & brawling-based style. Now 'WWE Style' is a solid, no-frills style of match. If everyone had worked 'WWE Style' in the 80's, WWF show quality would have been through the roof. But when the ENTIRE ROSTER works the same style of match, how can they expect to keep an audience entertained? That said, how can they expect to keep the workers themselves entertained? When was the last time you saw real fire and determination on a regular basis in WWE matches? You can't expect people to love their work when you're deliberately telling them not to do it as well as they know they can. Even workrate favourites Benoit & Eddie - given a brief run at the top this year - have been forced to harness their individual styles into the bland 'WWE Style' way of putting matches together. As a result, very little makes an impact or stays in the memory.

 

Until WWE takes the limitations it has willingly imposed on its workers away, the marks who have come to recognise workrate and match quality will continue to not watch this bland product. You simply can't re-educate the fanbase into accepting a worse product than they've been given in the past. You know when the next 'wrestling boom' everyone always whispers about will be? It'll be when WWE gives in and signs some of the awe-inspiring workers on the indy scene right now and lets them bust out the moves which the mainstream TV audience has never, ever seen before. That's what'll get the general public talking again, not match after match of 'WWE Style' dross. Workers risk injury on their own terms - they won't attempt moves they're not comfortable with. Only when the restrictions are taken off will we see an increase in wrestling's quality and an increase in its popularity.

[Guest Loss]

The workrate still only matters to "smart" fans. We're the minority.

This is why bad matches get booed out of the building these days. Riiiiight ...

[Guest Loss]

I don't know if there's a specific answer to this that envelopes everything. I think fans have always appreciated talent and effort. Being good in the ring is sometimes important to the company and sometimes not. I remember how laughable it was when Chris Jericho came into the company in 1999 and was called a bad worker when he was probably better than anyone they had on the roster at the time, with Austin sidelined, Foley regressing and HHH and Rock not yet hitting their stride.

[Guest HTQ's Personal Bitch]

The quality of the matches is not the only thing that matters, but consider this:

 

the company's most successful year monetarily, was also their most successful year quality wise, 2000.

 

I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

Vince has to realize, that the core of the business is wrestling. You have great matches, and you build stoires around them. you do NOT have great sotries with medicore matches, it jsut DOESN'T work as well.

1985-1991 were very, very successful years. Hogan was on top. Piss on your "workrate".

[frisco 0]

I think work rate is important, but also fans need to be interested in the character. People have legitimately criticized Hulk Hogans work rate, but at the same time he was very popular and one of the reasons the WWE is where is it today. I would say Chris Benoit clearly has a better work rate than Hogan, but Hogan, in his prime, was vastly more popular than Benoit.

Fans boo matches by wrestlers who have a poor work rate and are not particularly interesting. Call it a prediction but Stinsky comes to mind.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

That was a good read Deputy.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

1985-1991 were very, very successful years. Hogan was on top. Piss on your "workrate".

Piss on your inability to read the topic. The question was 'when did workrate start to matter in WWF'. I think its pretty obvious it DIDN'T matter a whole hell of a lot to WWF fans during the time period you're talking about. But fans expectations have clearly changed since then, hense the topic exploring how that change came about. Read - think - post.

[Guest HTQ's Personal Bitch]

1985-1991 were very, very successful years. Hogan was on top. Piss on your "workrate".

Piss on your inability to read the topic. The question was 'when did workrate start to matter in WWF'. I think its pretty obvious it DIDN'T matter a whole hell of a lot to WWF fans during the time period you're talking about. But fans expectations have clearly changed since then, hense the topic exploring how that change came about. Read - think - post.

Apparently you didn't read the post I was responding to.

[Guest Loss]

GREAT read! There's one point where I wanted to elaborate.

 

You know when the next 'wrestling boom' everyone always whispers about will be? It'll be when WWE gives in and signs some of the awe-inspiring workers on the indy scene right now and lets them bust out the moves which the mainstream TV audience has never, ever seen before. That's what'll get the general public talking again, not match after match of 'WWE Style' dross. Workers risk injury on their own terms - they won't attempt moves they're not comfortable with. Only when the restrictions are taken off will we see an increase in wrestling's quality and an increase in its popularity.

 

I too think that needs to happen at some point, and that perhaps they should all be signed at once so they can run some type of angle about their arrival. If it happened tomorrow, though, I don't know that WWE would be fully prepared to use them properly. They need to gradually move toward that style anyway and transition from HHH and Undertaker as the wrestlers most taken seriously to the guys on the roster who can actually keep up with those guys when they come in and give them good matches. They need some established hierarchy within the booking so the wins and losses will be meaningful or all the matches will run together after a while.

 

The problem is that even the best wrestlers on the roster have regressed noticably. Benoit and Guerrero were better in 1994 than they are in 2004. Jericho has eliminated most of his once extensive moveset in favor of a more bland style. Even Angle has already peaked, and Shawn Michaels has shown since returning that he wants everyone to wrestle his match. I don't think he'd be willing to take the bumps he'd need to take at this point.

 

So, yeah, that would probably be when the turnaround started to happen for them. I just hope that they are prepared for them when they arrive.