How will HHH be remembered?

[what 0]

Poor man's Shane Douglas.

[Papacita 0]

On the topic of how HHH will be remembered...I agree that the company will sell him as one of the greatest champions ever, but I'm not sure that marks--at least those who've watched during the time period--will ever really buy it, primarily for the reason that most of you have touched on, he doesn't make his opponents look good. Thus far, he's had one good/great title reign with competition from the likes of Rock, Taker and Foley, and since that time, he's basically been going over a bunch of scrubs (at least that's how they're presented) with little to no effort at all. Wrestling is just like other sports in that a champion's quality is determined by the quality of competition he has around him, and if all of HHH's competition is weak, what's making his title reigns so special? It's not like he's having mind-blowing matches month after month, and other than his feud with Michaels (which pretty much lost all significance after SummerSlam 02), he hasn't had any significant or career defining feuds because of their insistance on always putting him over. I think he will be remembered somewhat favorably because of DX and his run in 2000-01, but unless something drastic happens in the future, I don't expect him to even come close to guys like Austin, Rock, Flair or even Bret.

[Silence 0]

Poor man's Shane Douglas.

Well, he's got the beard, and he uses a gruff voice in his promos.

 

Aside from that, he's more of a poor man's Hogan, since HHH also had an appreciation night not too long ago on Raw after winning the World Heavyweight title from Randy Orton at Unforgiven (when Orton popped out of the cake), and the politics, of course. Certainly not the charisma, though.

 

Hogan's appreciation night was when he was still in the NWO in WCW. It consisted of Bischoff kissing his ass verbally, as usual, like Flair does to HHH all the time on TV.

 

*covers mouth*

 

Believe me, I am NOT Randy Orton, I'm just pointing something out.

[Guest LooneyTune]

everyone else will believe the hype of Triple H being in the league of stars with Flair, Hogan, Hart, etc.

HHH isn't good enough to scoop their dogs shit off the sidewalks. I'll half-respect HHH for his hard work and pretty much carrying the WWF on his (roided) back in 2000 when no other main event heels were around (Benoit was treated as an IC Level guy, and Angle wasn't ME until the year was more than half over), but his political B.S. tarnishes anything positive he's ever done.

 

Big deal, he tapped out to Chris Benoit. Who was the main focus during Benoits world title reign? Lets see...Bad Blood...World Title Match: Benoit vs. Kane is on before HHH vs. HBK, despite being for the World Title.

 

Benoit loses the title...and curtain jerks the next PPV (Unforgiven), and is on RAW even LESS, while HHH gets to cut 40 minute promos and get 5 hours of backstage segments talking about how he's going to screw/beat someones ass and then molest his sledge hammer.

 

Or how about that miracle 2002-03 World Title reign? He makes RVD and Kane look like jokes, Booker T's "people" can't win, made Steiner look like a wuss (well, I agree on this refusal), had a 3 month long feud with the barely mobile Kevin Nash, and jobbed the title for 3 weeks to his best friend.

 

Then the Summerslam 2003 Bullshit. Goldberg murders EVERYONE, the crowd is clearly nuts for him...and HHH wins with ONE FUCKING MOVE...a sledge hammer blow. And he wasn't even in the match until the last possible minute, because of his torn groin, and STILL refused to drop the title at the PPV.

 

Then the special MSG show where we were suppose to have HHH vs. Brock (House Show). However, HHH gets a sudden case of wontjobitus, and backs out with an "Injury", yet wrestles again days later. I can probably think of more, but I think we all get the point. HHH in the last 2 years ALONE makes him the biggest sack of shit in wrestling. At least Hogan justified his holding down by drawing boatloads of money with anyone he worked with in the 80's, Flair could drag a *** match out of anyone, and Steve Austin well...he pretty much was the second coming of Hogan, except just slightly below him.

[Australian Pride 0]

I can't force myself to care about ANYTHING on the program, because I know that when any angle ends, it'll end with HHH on top.

Survivor Series - HHH vs Gene Snitsky vs Kane for the World title. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, but hopefully this feud is a bit too low brow for Trips to get in on.

 

Back on topic of how he will be remembered - On the recent WM20 DVD they had a 10 greatest WM matches. If there is another WM retrospective in 30 years, produced by WWE, he will have at least 3 matches in the top 10 and one of them will be number one. (it wont be the WM20 3-way because he didn't win that)

 

It's the same as everything else produced by WWE. Example - HHH won best match of 2001 because of the 2/3 falls match with Austin, which wasn't even close to being the match of the year (my personal pick would have been Austin/Angle at SS, or Rock/Jericho at No Mercy).

 

From a smark (or at least my own) perspective, HHH will be remembered as a political genius, who weaseled his way into Stephs pants, and power. He was the man in 2000 while others were injured (Austin/Undertaker), retired (Foley) or making movies (Rock). After that year (and up until May 2001) there isn't much to like about him, the big pop in MSG was memorable, but he blew it in the months following with crap performances and the destruction of Y2J's credibility. He got embarrassed by Vince giving Hogan the title, and has been doing everything possible to keep that from happening again. He will be remembered more for his backstage power-plays than his in-ring qualities, which on occasion are still very good.

 

Even if you look at him from a strictly in-ring viewpoint, you could shoot holes in any argument for greatness just by looking at his WM19 match with Booker T, where he made Booker look pathetic on the way to the inevitable victory.

[AlaskanHero 0]

Just out of curiousity, how did Steph and HHH get together? Didn't they start dating or something during the Test/Steph angle? Just think, Test and Steph could have gotten hooked up in real life and it would be Test holding people down and winning multiple world titles instead of HHH.

[Guest LooneyTune]

They got together I think sometime after the McMahon-Helmsley angle began. I'll throw out a random time frame and say the Spring or Summer of 2000.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Has it been really 3, maybe 4 years that everything Triple H is involved in has been something just to get him more over as a heel?

 

I forget most of 2000-2001 with wrestling. But this is pretty sad, because Triple H is pretty much in the same league as The Undertaker...he will always have heat, no matter what he does.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

But this is pretty sad, because Triple H is pretty much in the same league as The Undertaker...he will always have heat, no matter what he does.

 

The important question is though...would he have that heat if he wasn't booked to go over everyone, all the time? I mean, *I* could get heat if I got to beat everyone, had my own World Title handed to me, and had one of the greatest wrestlers ever constantly give me verbal blowjobs.

[Guest DeathBecomesYou]

That's a very good point that, it would be interesting to see how over HHH would be without him doing the political shit.

In the end, like has been said numerous times already in this thread, WWE will always put HHH as being the greatest ever and the casual audience will buy it, just because WWE says so. Amongst smarks though, I think HHH will be held in at least some regard, but whatever he does in the ring will forever be linked with all the political shit he did outside of it.

From my own personal standpoint, this is where HHH stands. He's always been a decent worker, nothing special but solid. That's how i'll always look at HHH, he's not bad, he's not brilliant, he's just average.

[Guest DeathBecomesYou]

Poor man's Shane Douglas.

Well, he's got the beard, and he uses a gruff voice in his promos.

But HHH doesn't say fuck 20 times in every promo like Shane did for the bulk of his career, so that's one difference.

[The Niggardly King 0]

But this is pretty sad, because Triple H is pretty much in the same league as The Undertaker...he will always have heat, no matter what he does.

 

The important question is though...would he have that heat if he wasn't booked to go over everyone, all the time? I mean, *I* could get heat if I got to beat everyone, had my own World Title handed to me, and had one of the greatest wrestlers ever constantly give me verbal blowjobs.

 

So would it work for someone like Maven?

 

Trips plays the asshole so well, like it's just second nature to him. He has good mic skills, and can get a crowd interested in things...but he can also make them not care. Now not everyone can pull it off, even with everything Trips has gotten I couldn't see someone like Rhyno doing it because he's not good on the mic. Not everyone would get the same heat.

[Guest Loss]

HHH is a better worker than Maven, obviously, and no, I don't think it would work with Maven. The main reason for that, though, is that Maven has been on TV for three years and is still pushed as the Tough Luck Kid who happened to win the first Tough Enough. There's been no character development or memorable matches, aside from an upset elimination of the Undertaker in the 2002 Royal Rumble.

 

Contrast this with HHH, who three years into his run was a KOTR winner who was influencing the outcome of World title matches. He had gotten several Benjamin-like victories over Bret Hart on TV, had an undefeated streak when he first entered the company, won the '97 King of the Ring, had an IC title reign and had wrestled high-profile guys like Steve Austin on PPV, and wrestled in very memorable, if crappy, gimmick matches. He had valets and butlers, an Amazonian female bodyguard, and was leading DX and getting a lot of promo time. He had some extremely competitive TV matches with Shawn Michaels, when HHH was WAY below HBK on the totem pole and got the rub from Mr. Perfect as his chosen one.

 

If THAT doesn't show the difference between now and then in creating new stars, I don't know what does.

[Guest Rrrsh]

HHH will be remembered as Half Hogan, Half Nash

 

A man who could have a good match (Hogan) and could be in worthwhile storylines (Nash).

 

But, is a complete failure as a draw (Nash) and was a peice of shit behind the scene, playing polictics to make sure he was at the top whether the fans cared or not (Hogan)

[deancoles 0]

HHH will be remembered as Half Hogan, Half Nash

 

A man who could have a good match (Hogan) and could be in worthwhile storylines (Nash).

 

But, is a complete failure as a draw (Nash) and was a peice of shit behind the scene, playing polictics to make sure he was at the top whether the fans cared or not (Hogan)

That sums up Michaels pretty good as well.

Edited October 14, 2004 by deancoles411

[Guest Rrrsh]

HBK's only diffrence is now he isn't such a prick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

O yah, and has had about 20 times as many good matches as HHH.

[BHK 0]

had gotten several Benjamin-like victories over Bret Hart on TV.

I honsestly can't recall any Bret Hart/HHH matches at all, let alone when Bret was on top of the company. Anyone want to refresh my mind on this?

 

 

but on topic: In my mind, Triple H will go down as someone who was more shoved down our throats than anything else.

[Papacita 0]

had gotten several Benjamin-like victories over Bret Hart on TV.

I honsestly can't recall any Bret Hart/HHH matches at all, let alone when Bret was on top of the company. Anyone want to refresh my mind on this?

I remember them fighting at least twice in 97, the first was during the European title tourney (same Raw as Owen/Bulldog)...I don't remember the exact result, but Chyna came from the crowd to confront Bret as he was beating on HHH post-match, and they made a big deal about that.

 

The second match was the night after Badd Blood. HHH won via count out when Chyna prevented Bret's ringpost figure four attempt, distracting him long enough for Shawn to come up and KO him with Sweet Chin Music (btw, I marked like hell for that finish).

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I thought HHH was pouting for a long time because Hart put Rock over pretty cleanly and wouldn't do it for him.

[Fökai 0]

HHH is a better worker than Maven, obviously, and no, I don't think it would work with Maven. The main reason for that, though, is that Maven has been on TV for three years and is still pushed as the Tough Luck Kid who happened to win the first Tough Enough. There's been no character development or memorable matches, aside from an upset elimination of the Undertaker in the 2002 Royal Rumble.

 

Contrast this with HHH, who three years into his run was a KOTR winner who was influencing the outcome of World title matches. He had gotten several Benjamin-like victories over Bret Hart on TV, had an undefeated streak when he first entered the company, won the '97 King of the Ring, had an IC title reign and had wrestled high-profile guys like Steve Austin on PPV, and wrestled in very memorable, if crappy, gimmick matches. He had valets and butlers, an Amazonian female bodyguard, and was leading DX and getting a lot of promo time. He had some extremely competitive TV matches with Shawn Michaels, when HHH was WAY below HBK on the totem pole and got the rub from Mr. Perfect as his chosen one.

 

If THAT doesn't show the difference between now and then in creating new stars, I don't know what does.

Contrast this with Randy Orton, who within two and a half years into his run was a World Champion and Intercontinental Champion with the company. He had gotten several important victories over Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit on PPV, had a role with the top stable in the company upon return to the RAW brand, had wrestled other high-profile wrestlers such as The Rock, Goldberg and Triple H on PPV and wrestled in a few memorable gimmick matches. He had a sixteen-time World Champion for a valet, and was an integral part of Evolution, getting a lot of promo time. He had some extremely competitive TV matches with Chris Benoit AND Goldberg, when Orton was WAY below Benoit on the totem pole and got the rub from Ric Flair AND Triple H as their chosen one.

 

Contrast this with Brock Lesnar, who within SIX MONTHS into his run was the King of the Ring and Undisputed Champion of the company. In his second week with the company, he was fought over by the two co-owners of the company for the rights to wrestler for his respective brand. Instantly, he was booked at the top of the totem pole, winning over fans AND smarks who resented his spot in the company. He has secured several important victories over The Rock, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle on PPV, was placed as the focal point of the Smackdown brand within his first year in the company, defeated every active definable legend in his rise to the top (Hogan, Flair, Rock, UT) and wrestled in a few memorable gimmick matches. He was feared by every wrestler on the active roster, despite being just a rookie.

 

The period of 2000-2003 created just as many stars as the 1996 – 1999 period did.

[Fökai 0]

I thought HHH was pouting for a long time because Hart put Rock over pretty cleanly and wouldn't do it for him.

Hart did it for Rock out of the respect Rock had for the business.

 

Hart wouldn't do it for HHH out of pure hate for HBK and his heat-leeches.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Granted, you couldn't just put HHH's push on anyone and expect the same results. But I'll wager for every guy who wouldn't get as over, there'd be one who could get just as, if not more, over.

 

The point I was trying to make is simply that HHH's heat is not bulletproof.

 

The period of 2000-2003 created just as many stars as the 1996 – 1999 period did.

 

My problem is HOW they build these stars. Brock and Orton were GOING to be WWE Champions, no ifs, ands, or buts, before they ever appeared on TV. It seems to me that the fed decides who they want to wear the belt, then they make the fans accept them as champion. That's the exact opposite of how it should work.

 

Besides, I don't think it's fair to compare the period that saw the rise of Stone Cold, the Rock, Mick Foley, HHH and probably some others I can't recall right now to the period that gave rise to Brock (who quit, so it's kind of irrelevant) Angle and Orton. Of course, that's partially because it's kinda early to tell how well these characters will do in the long run (if Orton somehow becomes a mammoth draw, I'll take back this statement), but still.

[Guest Loss]

Contrast this with Randy Orton, who within two and a half years into his run was a World Champion and Intercontinental Champion with the company. He had gotten several important victories over Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit on PPV, had a role with the top stable in the company upon return to the RAW brand, had wrestled other high-profile wrestlers such as The Rock, Goldberg and Triple H on PPV and wrestled in a few memorable gimmick matches. He had a sixteen-time World Champion for a valet, and was an integral part of Evolution, getting a lot of promo time. He had some extremely competitive TV matches with Chris Benoit AND Goldberg, when Orton was WAY below Benoit on the totem pole and got the rub from Ric Flair AND Triple H as their chosen one.

 

Contrast this with Brock Lesnar, who within SIX MONTHS into his run was the King of the Ring and Undisputed Champion of the company. In his second week with the company, he was fought over by the two co-owners of the company for the rights to wrestler for his respective brand. Instantly, he was booked at the top of the totem pole, winning over fans AND smarks who resented his spot in the company. He has secured several important victories over The Rock, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle on PPV, was placed as the focal point of the Smackdown brand within his first year in the company, defeated every active definable legend in his rise to the top (Hogan, Flair, Rock, UT) and wrestled in a few memorable gimmick matches. He was feared by every wrestler on the active roster, despite being just a rookie.

 

The period of 2000-2003 created just as many stars as the 1996 – 1999 period did.

All good points, but there's a big difference. Brock Lesnar was pushed as a star and there was no demand for him to be pushed. The crowd didn't take to him and necessitate his role there. There was no crowd movement to make Orton a main event guy.

 

When HHH was put in the top position, he was put there because they needed a credible heel on top besides The Undertaker, and he was the best option they had. Orton and Lesnar were both elevated in times when the fans were more into Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddy Guerrero, Rob Van Dam and Booker T. That entire generation of wrestlers has been passed by now when they should be the kingpins of the company. It was the fans, not the company, that made Jericho, Guerrero and Van Dam stars specifically. The company gave Jericho a half-hearted push just so they wouldn't get criticized for not doing so. The company was really into Eddy Guerrero on top, and yanked him from that position so they could put the belt on JBL (???). Rob Van Dam, upon his debut, was more over than Austin, Rock, Angle or Jericho -- the top four guys at the time -- and was pushed beneath all of them.

 

1996-1999 didn't see any missed opportunities. There was no one who the crowd was begging for a run on top that didn't get it. 2000-2003 has produced nearly a half dozen missed opportunities.

 

It shows a certain bias that I don't really understand. Orton doesn't get over after six months of push and they give him the world title anyway and then turn him face after pushing him as a heel for over a year. Benoit and Jericho fail to draw 7.0 ratings after two weeks on top and the company immediately gives up on them.

 

Steve Austin would be considered a big risk who was too injury prone and who got mixed reaction if he was a star on the rise in today's political climate. At best, he'd get a Benoit push. And if you think Lesnar, Angle and Orton "stuck" on top like Austin, Rock, HHH and Foley did from 1996-1999, I'm truly shocked.

 

As for the Bret/HHH thing, HHH got two victories over Bret in 1997 -- one by countout and one by DQ. Bret never defeated HHH in return. An interesting side story about Rock -- Bret never did put over Rock. Shawn and HHH were actually pushing for Bret to cleanly defeat him in the middle of his heel push and Bret felt he didn't need to do anything to thwart Rock's momentum at the time. That has been reported by Dave Meltzer many times as being where the problems between Rock and HHH began.

[deancoles 0]

Wasn't that Bret/Rock match on Raw for the IC Title?

 

Edit: I think it was on the night that the Hart Foundation started again.

[what 0]

Poor man's Shane Douglas.

Well, he's got the beard, and he uses a gruff voice in his promos.

But HHH doesn't say fuck 20 times in every promo like Shane did for the bulk of his career, so that's one difference.

Same gimmick. Similar wrestling ability. Same look.

 

lol Dick Flair lol

[what 0]

HHH will be remembered as Half Hogan, Half Nash

 

A man who could have a good match (Hogan) and could be in worthwhile storylines (Nash).

 

But, is a complete failure as a draw (Nash) and was a peice of shit behind the scene, playing polictics to make sure he was at the top whether the fans cared or not (Hogan)

Calling HHH a complete failure as a draw is ridiculous.

[Guest Rrrsh]

In comparison to his conterparts (Austin and Rock) no its not.

[what 0]

In comparison to his conterparts (Austin and Rock) no its not.

It still is.

 

A guy like Nash was a complete failure as a draw. Or Sid. Hart and Michaels could even be called complete failures as draws.

 

But not HHH. He was the most integral part of the most profitable year in wrestling history.

[The Niggardly King 0]

In comparison to his conterparts (Austin and Rock) no its not.

It still is.

 

A guy like Nash was a complete failure as a draw. Or Sid. Hart and Michaels could even be called complete failures as draws.

 

But not HHH. He was the most integral part of the most profitable year in wrestling history.

Trips had great people around him, Sid and Nash didn't.

[what 0]

In comparison to his conterparts (Austin and Rock) no its not.

It still is.

 

A guy like Nash was a complete failure as a draw. Or Sid. Hart and Michaels could even be called complete failures as draws.

 

But not HHH. He was the most integral part of the most profitable year in wrestling history.

Trips had great people around him, Sid and Nash didn't.

What were Michaels and Hart?