Meltzer gives Joe vs. Punk five stars

[JoeDirt 0]

From the ROH boards:

 

Just perused over my copy of the Observer which i received today. I live in the UK so I think we get it quicker for some reason.

 

Anyway, there is a pretty big review of the Joe-Punk Chicago Ridge match inside.

 

Meltzer describes that it is clear "it's one of the best matches in years" and gives it a rating of *****.

 

He also states that anyone who is considering voting for match of the year needs to go out of their way to see this match.

 

"It really turned into something special about 45 minutes in, with some great near falls, with WrestleMania main-event like crowd intensity. They weren't moves you hadn't seen, but they were good, beleivable exchanges of strikes and moves, throwing in Japanese style spots with a little MMA. At 52:00, loud ROH chants started and it was clear it didn't matter who won the match at that point, because people thought it was so good".

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I've got this one on order! WOW, I REALLY wanna watch this one.

 

But for the record...........he gave Kobashi/Akiyama 5 stars too, and that match is my MOTY right now...............but it's not 5 stars.

[JoeDirt 0]

True, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on that match. But I haven't heard a single person yet say that this Joe vs. Punk match isn't great.

[Guest SoCalTF]

I always knew Meltzer overrated things, but God Damn! It was good, but calling it ***** just doesn't seem right to me.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

True, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on that match. But I haven't heard a single person yet say that this Joe vs. Punk match isn't great.

I would agree with that. I've heard nothing but good stuff about it.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Punk/Joe II is amazing. Thats all that could be said about it. It tells an amazing story and the heat is phenominal. MOTY, all the way.

[Guest OSIcon]

I always knew Meltzer overrated things, but God Damn! It was good, but calling it ***** just doesn't seem right to me.

 

Nearly every review I've read as it as MOTY and the best match in ROH history.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

One of the most talked about matches of late was the 10/16 Samoa Joe v CM Punk 60:00 draw from Chicago Ridge, IL for the ROH Title. It was the rematch of their 60:00 draw on 6/12 in Dayton (****1/4) that many had talked about as a match of the year contender. Mick Foley watched the Chicago Ridge match, seeing the second half from the stands and nobody even noticed he was there because there was so much attention on the match. Foley called it one of the best matches he’d ever seen live. Everyone who saw both matches said the Chicago Ridge match was better, and, after seeing it, I think it was considerably better.

 

The match really exemplified the upside of ROH, which is, to their niche audience, the booking of the championship as the main characters. The story here was as old as wrestling. Samoa Joe played world champion, who is respected but plays very subtle heel, only because the challenger, Punk, is a local product. What made the match was, in 2004, they got the audience to totally buy into the idea that the belt is a meaningful world title. With the exception of NOAH (which books their world champion similarly), no other worked promotion can get that kind of intensity from the crowd in their world title matches now, although there were some early in the year WWE matches like Eddie Guerrero v Brock Lesnar at No Way Out and the Wrestlemania main event that did as well.

 

To go 60:00 today, you need everything working for you. You need wrestlers who are over and a title that people take seriously. When HHH and Chris Benoit tried to do it on Raw, realistically, it failed. While the crowd was into the final 10 minutes, they don’t care much about anything but the finish, and they knew the finish wasn’t coming. Of course, that’s the problem with the Iron Man dynamic, as opposed to a match simply goes the hour.

 

The downside was it was 750 people in a city the size of Chicago. ROH delivers the nearly perfect product for its audience, but right now, the audience still is smaller than it needs to be.

 

But the crowd was buzzing for this match even before it started, which was half the battle. After the Japanese streamers open, the early part of the match was very much superior to the first match. The first match had them playing around with a ringside fan, and they were trying to kill time, knowing they were going so long. This match saw them do a lot of mat wrestling, but they never lost focus on the goal of making it appear to be realistic match for a realistic title. The crowd took to the realism, as every escape and exchange got a reaction, even though it was mainly moves like headlocks, head scissors and hammerlocks. A WWE crowd would have lost interest early, although that’s irrelevant because this crowd didn’t, and you can’t possibly do a bunch of big moves early in a 60:00 match or the crowd will burn out long before the halfway point. I was really impressed with Joe’s work as champion, because his job was to make Punk credible, but he sacrificed none of his own credibility. He came across as something special himself, and if doesn’t, people don’t think the belt means anything if the champ isn’t something special. There were some big moves starting about 25 minutes in, such as Joe doing a suplex on the floor, Punk with a tope, and then playing off each other’s trademark moves, most of which are Japanese inspired. Joe, at his size, did an elbow suicida (tope ending with an elbow smash).

 

It really turned into something special about 45 minutes in, with some great near falls, with Wrestlemania main event-like crowd intensity. They weren’t moves you hadn’t seen, but they were good, believable exchanges of strikes and moves, throwing in Japanese styles spots with a little MMA. At 52:00 loud ROH chants started and it was clear it didn’t matter who won the match at that point, because people thought it was so good. The show ended with submissions and near falls, with the idea of peaking when Joe did his muscle buster just as time was running out.

 

On the home video of this, which was just released, there are minor problems. You don’t hear the ring noise in the first 15 minutes, but that gets corrected and you do get the crowd noise. But in the end, that barely matters. The commentary done by Mark Nulty and booker Gabe Sapolsky (who uses a pseudonym of Jimmy Bauer for some reason, even though I’m guessing 95% of the people buying the tapes know it’s him) was good. Nulty is excellent in this kind of environment doing the X’s and O’s style of sports commentary and explaining strategy and the story of the match. At the 42:00 mark they cut the commentary, saying the match was so great they want to watch it from the stands. In most cases, that would be a bad idea, particularly in a match where the story is so much of the bout. It didn’t hurt this match at all as just with the visuals and no commentary, it is clear it’s one of the best matches in years, and I’d give it *****. The idea that the match wouldn’t play as well with another crowd, which is true, is irrelevant. The match showed that if you book something to be important and prestigious, your audience will ultimately take it that it is. Joe in the champ role has been protected, and made to look strong. The idea of a 60:00 match is that it is supposed to elevate the title and make the challenger seem on the level of the champion. It sure worked here in both aspects. The idea of the champion there to mainly get over the challenger, or frequent title changes, or ref bumps and run-in, where you think the champ is retaining via fluke, is lucky to hold the title and therefore the emotion that the next time you see him, he’ll probably lose the title, would make this mean the same as any other title does to its audience. Very little.

 

It’s nit just the audience, because it’s the same crowd that cared little about the same title early in the promotion history when they put the belt on Xavier, with the idea top guys didn’t need the belt and the belt would make Xavier a star. Hoe doesn’t need the belt, but if anyone else had it, it wouldn’t mean all that much.

 

And this is probably the best lesson of all. Joe doesn’t need the belt-the belt needed Joe. After nearly two years as champion, they’ve created a situation where if it does change hands, it will be huge. It’s an emotion a lot of newer fans can’t comprehend and current fans would think is ancient, yet with all the companies doing it the new way, nobody even knows or cars who the champions are, even the fans in the building. And if they see it change, they probably won’t remember it more than a week later. The idea that seeing a world title change was something you were lucky to see live (and you would never see on television except on videotape) once in your lifetime. They say that’s ancient thinking, and I thought you couldn’t have much more than a one-year run as champion in modern wrestling because the audience won’t care and you run out of challengers. Yet, in 2004, the only two belts that are able to garner intensity and believability every time out are Joe’s belt and Kobashi’s belt. In both cases, it’s the lengthy title reign that hasn’t the title situation boring, and the clean finishes, no ref umps and outside interference hasn’t made it hard to put together finishes. Both belts mean far more at the end of 2004 than they did at the end of 2003, at which time both men had already held those belts “too long” for the modern fan. The nearly two years without a title change have elevated the titles to where every title match, just by being a title match, now has the feel of being more important. What have become the booking crutches to get a reaction-the controversial finishes and the title changes, are the very things that appear to be what is crippling the idea of what a championship used to be, and apparently still can be today.

 

Anyone who is considering voting for match of the year needs to go out of your way to get this video. Even if you aren’t, it’s a great match to enjoy, and even more, to learn from.

 

Credit - WON

[Michrome 0]

Just curious SoCalTF, when you say he overrated it are you sure you've seen this one? Or are you talking about the Dayton match. I think this match is the best match in ROH history, and on Meltz's scale deserves 5 stars.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

This match and event isn't out on DVD yet is it?

[Michrome 0]

No it's not.

[JoeDirt 0]

Hopefully it comes out on DVD soon...I only buy DVDs, so I'm still waiting for 9/11, 10/2, 10/15, 10/16, and then the Weekend of Thunder shows too...

[Guest SoCalTF]

Just curious SoCalTF, when you say he overrated it are you sure you've seen this one? Or are you talking about the Dayton match. I think this match is the best match in ROH history, and on Meltz's scale deserves 5 stars.

I've seen both. The Chicago match is really good and I'd put it up around the ****1/2 mark. Hell, it made me a Punk fan again, but I think it wasn't *****. But hey, it's only a matter of opinion in the end. To say it's the best ROH match ever I'd agree with, but I'm saying that without having seen Aries/Dragon 75 Minutes yet.

[Tim Cooke 0]

What was wrong with it from being ****3/4 or *****? What matches have you given ***** in the past? Just curious...

 

Tim

[Guest Deviant]

Accusing Meltz of being incredibly generous seems a bit much when he gives the first Punk/Joe ***1/4. Even if you don't take the star ratings to be fact (which any half-way intelligent person wouldn't...) you have to consider that on his scale the second match is *3/4 better than the first.

 

And for the record, I found the humiliation of the Punk fan in the first match to be fucking hilarious. If it hurts the star rating, so be it, but it had me laughing my ass off for five minutes straight to the point that I had to stop the tape so I didn't miss anything.

 

Good review from Meltz too, I'm glad he didn't give it all away since I haven't seen II yet, and I liked his rant on the title reigns of Joe and Kobashi and agree completely. It's just a pity that his spelling and grammar die around that point...

 

ROH's newswire says this is the first time since 1997 that Meltzer has given a US match *****, which begs the question - What was the match from 1997 that was that good? Anyone know?

[JoeDirt 0]

Actually that was a typo, he gave the first Joe/Punk match ****1/4.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Undertaker Vs Shawn Michaels. Hell In a Cell was the last American 5 star match from Meltz.

 

Mysterio/Eddy the week after that show got a ****3/4 rating.

[JoeDirt 0]

Undertaker Vs Shawn Michaels. Hell In a Cell was the last American 5 star match from Meltz.

 

Mysterio/Eddy the week after that show got a ****3/4 rating.

He also gave Bret vs. Austin at WM13 *****.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Yes, but that was before the HIAC Match.

 

I just telling the rating for the Guerrero/Mysterio Havoc match since I figured someone would ask "but what about that match" since they were a week apart.

 

I'd like to see a complete list of the ***** American Matches Meltzer has given. I'm shocked he didn't give Angle/Benoit that for their RR03 Match considering most people had it in the ****-***** range and he's a Angle mark.

[JoeDirt 0]

He gave Angle/Benoit from the Rumble ****3/4.

 

There's a full list at:

 

http://www.geocities.com/mfoy18/wwfstarlist.html

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Meltzer is a interesting Rater.

 

He's apprently very tough on Matches.

 

Only 5 ***** american matches on his list (1990-2004)

 

War Games 1991

War Games 1992

HBK vs Razor @ WMX

Owen vs Bret @ SS1994

Samoa Joe/CM Punk @ Joe Vs Punk II (ROH's video title for the event)

[JoeDirt 0]

Meltzer is a interesting Rater.

 

He's apprently very tough on Matches.

 

Only 5 ***** american matches on his list (1990-2004)

 

War Games 1991

War Games 1992

HBK vs Razor @ WMX

Owen vs Bret @ SS1994

Samoa Joe/CM Punk @ Joe Vs Punk II (ROH's video title for the event)

Well, other than the two we already mentioned, yeah.

 

I have some issues with a few of his ratings, but usually he's pretty on the mark I think.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Meltzer is a interesting Rater.

 

He's apprently very tough on Matches.

 

Only 5 ***** american matches on his list (1990-2004)

 

War Games 1991

War Games 1992

HBK vs Razor @ WMX

Owen vs Bret  @ SS1994

Samoa Joe/CM Punk @ Joe Vs Punk II (ROH's video title for the event)

Well, other than the two we already mentioned, yeah.

 

I have some issues with a few of his ratings, but usually he's pretty on the mark I think.

I would agree that I disagree with his ratings too, but usually he's within a star or so of what I usually give stuff.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

I Find it interesting that Joe/Punk is the only straight wrestling match to hit *****. All the others were gimmicked matches. 6 were gimmicks...(war games, hiac, i quit, ladder, cage)

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I Find it interesting that Joe/Punk is the only straight wrestling match to hit *****. All the others were gimmicked matches. 6 were gimmicks...(war games, hiac, i quit, ladder, cage)

I'll be honest, I've never seen Meltz give a non stip 5 stars.............unless it was Puro.

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

Just curious, has Meltzer ever given a match -*****?

 

Edit: Ah, now I see that he has. Roddy Piper v. Mr. T from Wrestlemania 2. And he gave Hogan v. Andre -****? Wow. The match sucked a fat one, but...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Just curious, has Meltzer ever given a match -*****?

 

Edit: Ah, now I see that he has. Roddy Piper v. Mr. T from Wrestlemania 2. And he gave Hogan v. Andre -****? Wow. The match sucked a fat one but...

He gave The Bushwhackers v Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff from the infamous Heroes Of Wrestling PPV -459.4 stars, calling it "the worst match I've ever rated in my life".

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Has anyone else here seen Joe v Punk II yet ?

 

I've finished watching the tape, and I'd say it was easily ***** for me, and by far the best North American match of the year. I won't go into too much detail yet, as I want to see what others have to say, but there were so many great things about this match that really made it special. Little nuances throughout the match from both men, mostly from Joe early on, and more from Punk near the end, really added something. The crowd were great as well, and the atmosphere was unlike anything else in North American all year, with the exception of the endings to Lesnar v Eddie, and the WM main event. The commentary was excellent too, with Sapolsky and Nulty getting all the key points across, and really giving the match a sports-like feel. I highly recommend this match to anyone who wants to see what a major title match should feel like.

[AnonymousBroccoli 0]

I'd like to see the match, but I doubt it'll happen soon, with my empty pockets, and DVDs from the ROH site being pretty expensive for Canadians.

 

I've never kept current with ROH very well (the most recent match I've seen is Punk & Colt vs. Briscoes from DBD2Pt1, most recent show: DBD1), but I'm really impressed at how effectively they're booking the title. The respected 2-year champ and popular #1 contender have two spectacular 60-minute time limit draws behind them. So what do they book? A rubber match with no time limit. It's so effective, it almost boggles the mind that it's so simple. (Not to say getting Punk & Joe to where they are was simple, of course.)

[Michrome 0]

Yeah, the match is amazing, I hope more people see it.

 

The booking is very simple, but in today's environment, simple booking seems rare. It takes a lot of patience to create a title scene like they have--the belt was meaningless under Xavier, but they have been able to ignore the pressures to switch champs and create a great aura around the belt.