Wrestler of the year for 2004?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's funny how the guy who brought up the WO qualifiations in regard to Wrestler Of The Year seems to be ignoring the part about "overall strong value to the company." To me, if you want to see how valuable someone is to a promotion, you should consider the effect taking them out of the promotion would have. As much as I love them, taking out Benoit or Guerrero, or any one person in WWE, would have zero effect on the company.

[Guest krazykat72]

It's funny how the guy who brought up the WO qualifiations in regard to Wrestler Of The Year seems to be ignoring the part about "overall strong value to the company." To me, if you want to see how valuable someone is to a promotion, you should consider the effect taking them out of the promotion would have. As much as I love them, taking out Benoit or Guerrero, or any one person in WWE, would have zero effect on the company.

You think taking Joe out of ROH would kill them?

 

It'd be a blip on the radar. The people who go to those shows go for the workrate.

At the numbers they do, they'd be fine with Danielson, Punk, Aries, etc in the spot.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's funny how the guy who brought up the WO qualifiations in regard to Wrestler Of The Year seems to be ignoring the part about "overall strong value to the company." To me, if you want to see how valuable someone is to a promotion, you should consider the effect taking them out of the promotion would have. As much as I love them, taking out Benoit or Guerrero, or any one person in WWE, would have zero effect on the company.

You think taking Joe out of ROH would kill them?

 

It'd be a blip on the radar. The people who go to those shows go for the workrate.

At the numbers they do, they'd be fine with Danielson, Punk, Aries, etc in the spot.

Funny how you never brought those points up in regard to the wrestlers who you think should be WOTY. Apart from Kobashi, taking out any of the other wrestlers you've mentioned out of their respective promotions would have zero effect too. Doesn't say much for their importance, which is a key factor in the WO criteria you measure by.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

The wrestler who puts on the best matches is the Most Outstanding Wrestler. The most important wrestler is Wrestler of the Year. The unquestionable choice is HHH. He's the top guy for the only company making money.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Oh course that completely ignores that the company is in the tiolet mostly for his being on top.

[Guest krazykat72]

It's funny how the guy who brought up the WO qualifiations in regard to Wrestler Of The Year seems to be ignoring the part about "overall strong value to the company." To me, if you want to see how valuable someone is to a promotion, you should consider the effect taking them out of the promotion would have. As much as I love them, taking out Benoit or Guerrero, or any one person in WWE, would have zero effect on the company.

You think taking Joe out of ROH would kill them?

 

It'd be a blip on the radar. The people who go to those shows go for the workrate.

At the numbers they do, they'd be fine with Danielson, Punk, Aries, etc in the spot.

Funny how you never brought those points up in regard to the wrestlers who you think should be WOTY. Apart from Kobashi, taking out any of the other wrestlers you've mentioned out of their respective promotions would have zero effect too. Doesn't say much for their importance, which is a key factor in the WO criteria you measure by.

The difference is the WWE is *far and away* the most successful company in the world right now. How can you not realize this?

Guerrero is every bit as good a worker Joe is, is the WWE's top draw in the Southwest and the top Latino ratings grabber. You're wrong if you think he'd have no effect on business if he was just dropped. It'd sure as hell be more than if Joe left ROH.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Because the WWF isn't successful right now. Their profits continue to decrease every year. And the only reason they even make a decent profit is because they gouge fans.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Because the WWF isn't successful right now. Their profits continue to decrease every year. And the only reason they even make a decent profit is because they gouge fans.

Exactly. WWE may be making the most money right now, but that isn't a fair indication of real success. If it was, then a WWE wrestler would always win Wrestler Of The Year, because they'd be working for the 'most successful' company. WWE will always make money, but that does not mean they are always being a success.

[Guest krazykat72]

Because the WWF isn't successful right now.  Their profits continue to decrease every year.  And the only reason they even make a decent profit is because they gouge fans.

Exactly. WWE may be making the most money right now, but that isn't a fair indication of real success. If it was, then a WWE wrestler would always win Wrestler Of The Year, because they'd be working for the 'most successful' company. WWE will always make money, but that does not mean they are always being a success.

I'd take a top WWE guy in a company still making millions of dollars, working a full schedule in the biggest company in the world, who at their worst outdraw everyone else, along with PPV and TV than a guy who works between 25-30 shows a year for a company that has no actual significance in the industry outside of a niche that has no real potential for growth and who on their best day draws crowds that are bottom level for the opposition and usually it's far significantly less.

Of course, I'd pick Kobashi this year over anyone since his company is in the black, he has great matches (subjective, but thats my opinion), draws reasonalbly well and is more important to his company than anyone in ROH, WWE, etc.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest NateRizzle]

Samoa Joe is drawing in fans, and has the best title reign I've seen in forever.

 

10/16 and 6/12 vs. CM Punk, 10/2 and the PWG match vs. Bryan Danielson, the six man tag on 7/17, w/ Lyger vs. Danielson/Ki from November are all better than anything Eddie or Benoit have done in years.

[Guest OSIcon]

Yes Hogan should have won at least a few of those years.

It's a joke for you to even compare Joe being on the level of Flair

since Flair was in a National Company drawing some of the higest ratings on Cable in the country.

 

Where did I ever compare the two or even infer that Joe is currently on the same level that Flair was in the mid to late 80's?

 

I just stated that Hogan was the bigger draw and had more national exposure than Flair, yet Flair won the award over Hogan every time. That was to illustrate that the voters haven't eliminated a wrestler from contention in the past just because he was being outdrawn by a large margin or had less national exposure.

 

Sabu was an aberration in '94.

 

Agreed that he didn't deserve the second place finish. However, the fact that he did get it shows how a lot of the voters interpret the awards (right or wrong).

 

There has never been anyone who has won this award that has not been in one of the top companies in thier country. From Flair to Misawa to Choshu to Angle to Kobashi to Race etc. I'd actually say that plays a huge part in what I'm saying.

 

ROH is the third biggest promotion in the US. Second if you factor financials into the. So I'd say ROH is "one of the top promotions in the country" unless you want to get more specific.

 

so shold this, ROH is a *nothing* company in this country that caters to a few dedicated fans. It has excellent workrate, but it's an indy, probably the best one, but an indy with no real impact on anything.

 

This isn't four years ago where there was WWF, WCW, ECW, and then the rest of the indies. Percentage wise, the indies still make a fairly small amount of indy fans but the ratio is much closer than it has been in anytime in the past. In an environment where there is just the WWE and then the indies, I would say being the biggest indy *is* important and *does* have an impact on US wrestling. You could make the argument that Joe Joe is the chanpion of the top indy promotion which puts him at the top of hundreds (thousands?) of other indy wrestlers. That seems pretty important to me.

 

You say they've increased business? Really? There's no imminent expansion.

 

Since Joe has been champion? Sure. Look at average attendence from an ROH show in March of 2003 and then now. Hell, in March 2003 they were running two cities regulary (Philly and Boston) and were attempting to delveop a following in Pittsburgh (which never panned out). Now they have a semi-regular schedule that includes 5 cities (Philly, Boston, Dayon, Chicago, and Elizbabeth) plus some other cities they've ran and done decently in (Baltimore for example). Sounds like expansion to me. Even this year they've expanded, making Chicago into a permenant stop and getting Dayton up to good attendence levels after disappointing turnouts earlier in the year. On that note, you could even make the case that the Joe/Punk match (and therefore Joe himself) was a big part of Dayton's attendence going up since ROH was about to drop Dayton has a stop after a relatively poor turnout for the show that match was on.

 

They're not even at TNA level in the public eye, which is nothing and the biggest shows they run are too small for even the smallest WWE house show.

 

Agreed for the most part.

 

That means Joe's "drawing" is meaningless.

 

Is it?

 

So until you reach a certain undefined level, any "drawing" that wrestler does is rendered meaningless? That is pretty arbitrary and self-fulfilling. If Joe works the main event of a show that draws about 2000 people without television or any real forms of advertising besides the internet, that is rendered meaningless just because it isn't as a big as a WWE show that has advertising, tons of television, and 20 years of public exposure behind it?

 

Your problem is that you are comparing apples with oranges. No, Joe is not working shows that draw as much as WWE shows. Is that a reflection on his drawing power though or rather a reflection on circumstance? The criteria for the award is not "what top wrestler worked for the company that drew the most". If that were the case, then this award would be easy pickings every single year.

 

 

Benoit and Guerrero in the main events have drawn more people in one night *No Way out*, *Backlash* than Joe has drawn in his life. Give

 

Same thing as above. That is largely based on circumstance. Not to mention, iit goes back to what you said in one of you earlier posts. You can't give the credit to drawing in the US to one person. Would have those Pay Per Views done less buys or worse at the gate if there was another main event? Shows headlined by Michaels and Triple H have done as good and better this year and in recent memory than those shows headlined by Benoit and Triple H. Going by what your saying, then Triple H and Michaels should be above Benoit and Eddie for WOTY consideration.

 

Again, you are arguing that because Benoit and Eddie work for a bigger promotion, that automatically makes them better regardless of how many people they actually draw or how good their work is. I would tend to disagree with that. It *can* make them better, but it doesn't necesarily. You have to compare the two things relatively.

 

I've never argued Joe wouldn't be a fine pick for Most Outstanding, but anyone pimping him for WOTY is out there. He has no influence or drawing power which last I checked were two important criteria.

 

Once again, I'd beg to differ. I already outlined my reasoning on how Joe is influential and important so I won't go through it again. Maybe you'd care to outline how Eddie and Benoit have been important and influential?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

As much money as WWE makes, the fact that they are making less money than ever before, and are struggling at the gate, means I can't call them a success. If they were a real success, business for them would be far more better than it is.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

The WWF is only making money right now because they raise prices and are essentially cutting off whole limbs of the corporation to stay in the black. That's hardly being successful.

 

When you honestly doubt the long term for a company it's not a good thing.

[Guest krazykat72]

ROH is the third biggest promotion in the US.  Second if you factor financials into the.  So I'd say ROH is "one of the top promotions in the country" unless you want to get more.

You point out the 2nd place results. How many non top national stars have ever won? Zero.

The ratio is close? The *lowest* PPV buyrate in years for Taboo Tuesday was about 170,000 buys (it'll probably go up like most of them do)

The *highest* ROH show drew 1700 people.

TNA drew 35000 on PPV.

The ratio is still ridiculously high and the numbers back that up

When one group controls 95% (and that's on the low side) of the national scene and you're in *third* place with about 1%, and that's giving TNA which at least has TV and PPV, it doesn't say much for you being the third biggest company in the US.

Not ot mention a company that runs nowhere near a full schedule, operates its shows while losing money, sometimes makes it back due to dvd sales, and will not ever be significantly larger than it is now.

It's so far from major league it's not even funny. You're suggesting Joe is to say Benoit, or Orton or Guerrero as Flair was to Hogan, he's not.

He's more like what someone from a small 80's indy was to hogan back then. Totally insignificant. Being an important part of drawing a few hundred people to shows isn't that signifcant. There have been Lucha and Nostalgia shows that have drawn far more people to the box office than anythign ROH has ever done (and thats with bringing in Foley, Lyger and Steamboat, all of whom it could be argued are bigger draws for them than Joe.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If a group that controls 95% of the national scene is barely drawing more than 2,000 to live events, and has to heavily paper TV and PPV's, how is that a success ?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

And a company that had to heavily paper a show just to get 7500 people into an arena for one of it's Big Four shows just a few short weeks ago.

[Guest krazykat72]

If a group that controls 95% of the national scene is barely drawing more than 2,000 to live events, and has to heavily paper TV and PPV's, how is that a success ?

The TV shows which cover a good portion of the live events (which are a distant third in the company's money making revenue streams) still draw higher than that.

You read the Observer and you should know that. Not to mention the foreign shows. Being able to still make millions per quarter on wrestling is a success.

Not nearly as big of one, but *far* bigger than anyone else here.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

They aren't making millions though. They are through WWF math (ie lying). They lost money by the time they had to pay stock holders last quarter. They didn't even try to spin how poorly they did.

 

Making less money every year is not being successful. That's called being on a sinking ship.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Raw at the Baltimore Arena, and I assume it was there, drew around 50% of capacity. Yes, quite the success that is.

[Sass 0]

Who's had the better buzz this year?

 

Joe, Benoit, Eddy, HHH, or Kobashi?

 

The guy, who's name when you hear it makes you go "he the ace" and not even need to pause for a moment to consider the other top guys around.

 

For me, that's been Joe.

 

Joe is the king of his company right now and he has helped carry the company through what could have been a potentially nightmarish year after the RF scandal from earlier.

[Tawren 0]

krazykat, you do realize Joe doesn't just wrestle for ROH, right? Joe has also actively competed in PWG, JAPW, IWA:MS, and several other indies. Just because he is ROH champion doesn't mean that is all he does.

 

Edit: Got mixed up, sorry Mad Dog.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Why was that comment thrown at me?

[Guest krazykat72]

krazykat, you do realize Joe doesn't just wrestle for ROH, right? Joe has also actively competed in PWG, JAPW, IWA:MS, and several other indies. Just because he is ROH champion doesn't mean that is all he does.

 

Edit: Got mixed up, sorry Mad Dog.

Yes, but all arguments are being used for him as ROH's "World Champion" and he doesn't get too much pub elsewhere. Especially considering ROH is "one of the top 3 promotions in the US"

[Guest OSIcon]

You are still missing my point.

 

By the logic you are presenting, everyone in the WWE is a better canidate for Wrestler of the Year than Samoa Joe simply because they have much broader exposure. You are also discounted *any* impact (the "importance and influential" bit again) simply because it is not on the grand stage. I'd say having a lot of influence and importance on a small scale is better than minimal or no influence and importance on a larger scale.

 

For example, how exactly has Benoit been influential this year? I am a big fan of Benoit and have been for quite some time, but I find it difficult to pinpoint an area where he has been influential this year. It's not like his title reign ushered in an area of small guys working at the top. It's not like his main event run lead to a change in the WWE main event wrestling style that goes along more with his own wrestling style. He simply won the title, had virtually no impact on ratings, attendence, and buyrates and was back down the upper mid card for the rest of the year. However, jut because he reaches a much broader audiance, you seem willing to overlook all of that. Joe reaches a much smaller audiance and wrestles in a much small universe (the indy world as a whole...not just ROH since he does wrestle other palces and HAS had an impact in those places), yet he has actually been influential in that world and had been had a lot of importance in that world.

 

I am still waiting for you to present cases for Benoit and Eddie (though the case for Eddie is a lot more clear). Instead of continually saying "Joe doesn't reach as many people", why don't you explain how Benoit has been influential and important this year. Then we can compare Joe's importance and how he has been influential alongside Benoit's importance and influence to see who really is the better canidate. If Benoit hasn't had any influence this year and has only been mildly important, how can he make a better canidate than Joe who has had both of those things, just on a smaller scale?

 

I don't even think I'd vote for Joe. Kobashi is my pick right now with Eddie and Joe as runner ups. I *do* think Joe is a viable option though.

 

Especially considering ROH is "one of the top 3 promotions in the US"

 

Are you disputing that?

[Guest krazykat72]

Especially considering ROH is "one of the top 3 promotions in the US"

 

Are you disputing that?

I think calling them that means absoulutely nothing, since being 3rd at this point means just that.

 

They drew about 750-800 in thier biggest market last night on the back of the Joe/Punk and Heenan/Cornette lineup.

 

It was pimped as one of the biggest shows of the year and it was a little more than half of the show they did there in March and down from Lyger being there last month. You'd think with all the MOTYC candidate from the previous 2 matches and Joe being such a "draw" for the company, the numbers would be up.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

Kenta Kobashi, Chris Benoit, and Samoa Joe are all great wrestlers. But the all-important question must be asked: do they kill babies? And the answer to that question is NO. Therefore, the wrestler of the year can only be...

 

G

E

N

E

 

S

N

I

T

S

K

Y

Bitches!