Finally saw XXX/AMW Cage from 12/04 PPV

[Tim Cooke 0]

I finally got to see the TNA cage match from the December PPV.

 

Certainly wasn't awful but it won't be blip on the radar map for 2004/2005 match of the year candidates.

 

The problems with the match are numerous. There was absolutely no build in the match. From Daniels blading 2 minutes in (most likely being told to do so) to the noticable lack of crowd heat in the first 14 or so minutes (due to the story being told so weakly) to the absurd nature of the high spots.

 

Wrestling matches, like great songs, television shows, movies, plays, etc. all build from an opening to a middle portion to a climaxing ending. This match featured no opening and no ending, just a middle portion that served to represent all three portions of the match.

 

There were no control segments to help the heat of the match. Besides the fact that most of the match consisted of "your move, my move", the lack of roles from the teams had a clear impact on the teams. Since the fans didn't know who to cheer and who to boo, the first 3/4's of the match was heatless. This killed the face in peril segment on AMW. Daniels did a little in trying to heel it up but Skipper was oblivious to that fact.

 

The final 10 minutes was little more than the "your move, my move" wrestling that is flashy on first sight but won't hold water a few viewings later, none the less years later. Skipper's spot off of the top took so long to set up that I thought I was watching a bad ECW match where RVD would take forever to set up a spot that might end up looking decent but would kill any logic that the match had. This was followed by Daniels hitting a really pretty elbow off of the top of the cage. But guess what? It got no heat, since it wasn't placed before the more higher risked move. The lack of thought in designing the match was clearer than ever.

 

I wasn't expecting epic selling but I expected more than, "I'll sell, okay you're down so now I will pop up."

 

I am hardly a fan of the Ring of Honor Scramble Cage matches but at least they present a well built story, build the spots in order from smallest to biggest, and don't just run through everything in their arsenal in random fashion. The story of the TNA match with both teams putting everything on the line because they don't want to split up was good but would have worked a lot better if there had been some build.

 

**1/2 for the hard work that everyone gave. But without smart and logical thinking and planning, hard work will only get you so far.

 

Tim

[geniusMoment 0]

You have tough standards, but I love you for them. No really, I do.

[Insane Bump Machine 0]

I agree with you. Skipper's spot and maybe the big elbow by Daniels are the only thing I'll remember about the match because the rest was just not that good. Their first cage match, though also a bit of a clusterfuck, was much better.

[RedJed 0]

While I know everyone has a right to an opinion, I just dont get some people - I swear they have to "go against the grain" of a rating or overall majority feeling of a certain match just to be different or to act like they know more than anyone else. While I'm not saying this is the case here, I just think its a weird dynamic of some of the IWC.

 

Whatever the case though, as it pertains to this opinion - I think it is sad though about some people's overcriticalness of a clearly very solid match, as it just generally narrows the mind so much about the sport that you miss out on alot of aspects that make it great to be a fan of wrestling. Again though, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I just think its funny how nitpicking some people can be in general, as even the most hardcore book or film critics can't touch some IWC posters. It's like, why are you even bothering to watch if you are turning a viewing of a match into a intrical surgical breakdown of things without seeing the big picture, that is was just a fun match to watch? It also demeans the hard work all 4 of these guys put forth in this match to do something worthwhile and memorable with the 20 minutes they were given.

 

The fact that there is a comparison here of this match and ROH Scramble matches (which are usually memorable but even MORE spotty and illogically built than this match in most cases) is something I definately dont agree with. Dare I say this statement may have more to do with a "ROH Rules, TNA drools" mentality than anything.

 

Plus to say there was no build here - umm, they have been on and off feuding (and more "on" in the last 4-5 months) for a very long time. That, to me, shows just a lack of knowledge about the current TNA product and their program than anything.

 

I guess TNA, once again, can't do anything right, huh?

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I have to say I think this is the best match in TNA history. This is the one classic match they have under their belt, and if they do more like this match, they will be fine.

[Insane Bump Machine 0]

'Just a fun match to watch' is correct, but it's been praised way beyond that during the past weeks. Not only at this board but by numerous critics like Meltzer, Keller and Scott Keith.

 

Nobody denies that they worked hard. But a great cage match needs guts AND brains, and this match lacked the later.

 

Tim said that there was no build in the match, and he's right. They didn't build to anyting with maybe the exception of the contrieved handcuffs bit. He didn't even comment on the buildup for the match and their feud because he only critizised the match itself. I guess you misread that.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I thought the match built well until the Skipper spot, and then there was a bit of an anticlimax. The Skipper spot was to contrived and took too long to set up, but it served it's purpose of having everyone talking about that match.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"While I know everyone has a right to an opinion, I just dont get some people - I swear they have to "go against the grain" of a rating or overall majority feeling of a certain match just to be different or to act like they know more than anyone else. While I'm not saying this is the case here, I just think its a weird dynamic of some of the IWC."

 

To go against something just to do it is ridiculous. To go against something for a reason that you can validate with some reasonable logic is another. I have watched enough TNA to know that the company is incapable of producing a great match. So when I read all the reviews and Meltzer smoking the ratings stash by giving it ****3/4, I wanted to check it out just to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

 

 

"Whatever the case though, as it pertains to this opinion - I think it is sad though about some people's overcriticalness of a clearly very solid match"

 

Very solid match? What was solid about the match? The moves were hit cleanly for the most part so that is defintely a plus but that makes a solid match?

 

"as it just generally narrows the mind so much about the sport that you miss out on alot of aspects that make it great to be a fan of wrestling."

 

This is just an off shoot of, "Don't think while you are watching a match." I've attended 3 shows in the past 3 months that have satisfied my wrestling fandom in more ways than I can imagine.

 

There are no doubt people like this match. That's not the issue. I like the Mighty Mighty Bosstones a lot. But I would never say that they are an all time great. This match isn't close to being an all time great like some (even respected people) have said.

 

"Again though, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I just think its funny how nitpicking some people can be in general, as even the most hardcore book or film critics can't touch some IWC posters."

 

I've seen plenty of TV/Film/Book critics who are way more critical than wrestling fans are.

 

"It's like, why are you even bothering to watch if you are turning a viewing of a match into a intrical surgical breakdown of things without seeing the big picture, that is was just a fun match to watch?"

 

Because, like I said in my intital post, the match may be fun to watch once, but a true "classic" or whatever key word or star ratings that are being thrown around for this match indicate, it is nothing more than a one time thing. A true classic or great match is able to stand up to a criteria that all great wrestling matches share aspects of.

 

 

"It also demeans the hard work all 4 of these guys put forth in this match to do something worthwhile and memorable with the 20 minutes they were given."

 

Nah, you know what is even more demaning? The quiet reaction Daniels got after he did his elbow off of the top of the cage. Daniels risking his body for a spot is admirable. But with a little pre-thinking, the reward of getting a large reaction would have made that spot even better.

 

 

"The fact that there is a comparison here of this match and ROH Scramble matches (which are usually memorable but even MORE spotty and illogically built than this match in most cases) is something I definately dont agree with."

 

So give me the reasons. The first scramble cage was designed to be a high risk spot fest where you climbed the cage to get to the platform to do the dives off of and try to win the match. Spot fu? Of course. But it didn't promise to be anything more. The latest Scramble Cage was designed to eliminate your opponent with a dive off of the plat form. Again, it didn't promise to be an epic, it promised to be a stunt extravaganza.

 

"Dare I say this statement may have more to do with a "ROH Rules, TNA drools" mentality than anything."

 

Sure you could dare to say that, but you would be wrong. I could have mentioned any of the TLC matches for at the very least building the match in an order of simpler spots to middle spots to the biggest spots.

 

 

"Plus to say there was no build here - umm, they have been on and off feuding (and more "on" in the last 4-5 months) for a very long time."

 

The BUILD of the match. You know, what is actually going on in the ring during the early portions of the match. Besides not hitting 2 moves off of the top of the cage, the opening of the match was wrestled the same as the middle and the ending.

 

"That, to me, shows just a lack of knowledge about the current TNA product and their program than anything."

 

See above.

 

 

"I guess TNA, once again, can't do anything right, huh?"

 

No, they could do it right. They could have layed the match out better so enhance better crowd reaction for the spots. I would rather watch a good spot fest than a poorly laid out and contrived spot fest.

 

Tim

[Tim Cooke 0]

"I thought the match built well until the Skipper spot, and then there was a bit of an anticlimax. The Skipper spot was to contrived and took too long to set up, but it served it's purpose of having everyone talking about that match."

 

How did it build well? If it built well, they would have got heat at the very least for the hot tag (though, with the handcuffs gimmick, they pretty much squandered the notion of the hot tag). But they didn't do that. There was never a clear story presented in the ring. They both wanted to win so badly so they just went move after move after move without any thoughts or reasoning behind what they were doing?

 

The Skipper spot was contrived. And it took forever to set up. But my real problem isn't with the spot. It is with the stuff that happens after, like Daniels elbow drop, which got little reaction.

 

It is very telling when the crowd was dead silent through the first 3/4's of the match until the high risk spots came. What does TNA have to do next time to get heat, have someone jump off the roff of the building on to someone in the ring?

 

Tim

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Well, at least someone posted a thought provoking thread here......I'll give you that Tim.

 

Well, although I enjoyed the match and would probably agree that it IS the best match they have had in their companies history. With that said, I'm not exactly going to sit here and call it the greatest match in the history of the sport or nothing of the sorts. I would agree with the fact that the build in the match was pretty bad. It WAS essentially the same at the beginning as it was in the end. I didn't think the key spot was done as good as they should have done it and it wasn't the most layed out match I've ever seen either.

 

On the positive side I will say that everyone in the match worked their asses off and it showed. I think the reason why so many people went apeshit after seeing the match was there hasn't been too much if any stuff in TNA's history like this. It was EVIDENT that everyone in the match was really busting their ass and trying to give this match a special feel to it. I also think that Tim is being critical of something that he needs to get over. Companies like TNA and WWE could give two shits if the matches are worked in the way that you were explaining. I'm not saying it's better that way and I would agree that it is lacking and actually somewhat insulting to the "smart" fan. That IMO, is the reason why I watch Indy's and Puro stuff. It's about the only wrestling out there with a brain or is at least remotely reasonable when it comes to builds and selling etc. Not to say either that these kind of matches are never put on by WWE or TNA (although TNA is more guilty of this...) but the majority of the time......this is the case.

 

But I think if someone wants to say Tim is wrong.........you should probably try and back it up with some points.....because I know Tim will.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"On the positive side I will say that everyone in the match worked their asses off and it showed."

 

Never disputed they worked hard. But that's only half the battle. Let's say I have a job that requires me to add up 100's of numbers for a final calculation. I bust my ass getting into work and staying late to produce a final product. While everyone else is taking a lunch break, I am working. And when I turn in my final analysis, the total sum of the numbers is wrong. Yea, I worked hard, but hard work only gets you so far.

 

"I think the reason why so many people went apeshit after seeing the match was there hasn't been too much if any stuff in TNA's history like this."

 

Agreed.

 

"It was EVIDENT that everyone in the match was really busting their ass and trying to give this match a special feel to it."

 

Agreed.

 

"I also think that Tim is being critical of something that he needs to get over. Companies like TNA and WWE could give two shits if the matches are worked in the way that you were explaining. I'm not saying it's better that way and I would agree that it is lacking and actually somewhat insulting to the "smart" fan."

 

I am talking Pro Wrestling 101. I'm not asking for the TNA guys to go out there and work a match that is based around selling. I am saying that if you want to work a spot fest, work it intelligently. Simple things like a hot face run to start the match (which they kind of did but there was still too much back and forth stuff for the fans to get into who to cheer), a face in peril segment (which they did, but had no heat because of the messed up first segment), and then go to your finishing spots with each spot building until you hit the biggest spot and take it home.

 

"That IMO, is the reason why I watch Indy's and Puro stuff. It's about the only wrestling out there with a brain or is at least remotely reasonable when it comes to builds and selling etc."

 

Again, this isn't asking to build a masterpiece. This is just common sense so that the crowd will at least have a chance to get into the early stages of the match. If the crowd still doesn't react, then the workers can at least say they did their best and the problem lies in the booking, etc.

 

Non Lucha fans think lucha is spoteriffic. But most Lucha match builds from the ground to the rope running spots, to the flying spots.

 

If this match would have built from a hot face run to a face in peril segment to the high spot near finishes, I bet it would have got more heat earlier in the match as well as got more heat for the dive spots at the end.

 

I have no problem watching a fun spotfest. But watching this was like watching a train wreck, when a little bit of thinking could have made the match so much better.

 

But since the TNA fans now see that TNA will give them high risk spots, they will only pop for those. But why shouldn't they? The wrestlers and the booking have given them no other reason to.

 

Tim

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Never disputed they worked hard. But that's only half the battle. Let's say I have a job that requires me to add up 100's of numbers for a final calculation. I bust my ass getting into work and staying late to produce a final product. While everyone else is taking a lunch break, I am working. And when I turn in my final analysis, the total sum of the numbers is wrong. Yea, I worked hard, but hard work only gets you so far.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I know that work is only half the battle and honestly they accomplished that half IMO. As far as the intelligence in this match.........it's extremely low. I thought it was a fun match to watch however and I didn't get the trainwreck feel that you did Tim. Would you mind elaborating on that some? I'm not being a smartass.....I really would like to hear your opinion on it.

 

 

I am talking Pro Wrestling 101. I'm not asking for the TNA guys to go out there and work a match that is based around selling. I am saying that if you want to work a spot fest, work it intelligently. Simple things like a hot face run to start the match (which they kind of did but there was still too much back and forth stuff for the fans to get into who to cheer), a face in peril segment (which they did, but had no heat because of the messed up first segment), and then go to your finishing spots with each spot building until you hit the biggest spot and take it home.

 

I'm aware that is not what you were saying Tim, I've read your posts here and elsewhere and I know you are a pretty hard critic on stuff, and I have no problem with that. That's also the reason why I'd put effort into the convo.........at least I know you know what you talking about. I admit fully that the elbow spot was done at the wrong time and basically it messed the ending up a bit. Also, I WILL try and stick up for the fact that neither team was booked as face or heel at least IMO. People always cheer Daniels no matter what and people always boo AMW no matter what. Not saying everyone, but the crowds are divided on those guys, so I would chalk this up to TNA being poor at not defining their roles for them in the match. The face in peril thing in essence shouldn't work well(and it really didn't in this case) if the roles aren't clear. I agree with you as far as the big spot should be the ending too...........

 

Again, this isn't asking to build a masterpiece. This is just common sense so that the crowd will at least have a chance to get into the early stages of the match. If the crowd still doesn't react, then the workers can at least say they did their best and the problem lies in the booking, etc.

 

I didn't think you were expecting a masterpiece, but I was saying maybe because of all the hype you read.......you were expecting too much. Kind of like (I hate this example but please bear with me) when people say that a five star match in WWE is different than one in Japan. I don't rate things differently as I see all wrestling under the same umbrella.............but I KNOW we all do not think that way. I already saw this as a booking issue and can't put the blame on the performers. Like I mention earlier, there were no clear defined roles for them in the match.........and that is the killer here.

 

Honestly, I think it would have been good if AMW went dick heel in this match considering the amount of blood that Daniels lost for no reason. They could have had them build to his juice in the typical "look at us making your hero bleed spot" and then XXX could have done the "we need to hit highspots to win.....we have nothing left" type ending. Maybe that isn't explaining it enough, but I think you'll know what I mean.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

All I did was watch the match, and go,"that was good, but I didn't feel like it was a classic". Does that make me bad for not going into great detail over it ?

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

No, cause I won't either. Sounds like DK and I have about the same read on this match, as far as best in TNA's history, but far short of best ever. If Tim has watched it and thinks it sucks, that's fine, and I don't care to change his mind. The only thing I will add is the "Best match ever" etc. chants from the crowd. Regardless if the match was technically perfect or not, for TNA to get a crowd excited like that is a step in the right direction. If that match sucked, they need to do a lot more matches that suck.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

I love wrestling more than just about anyone on this board, but you people who write paragraphs and paragraphs about actual matches and why they do and don't make sense and how they build and etc. etc. really do need to get a life. You are quite sad.

[Epic Reine 0]

But having 919 posts on a message board does equal a life? LOL

[Michrome 0]

Yeah really. Some people see more in wrestling than others, and like to think about what they watch. It's no different than being really into anything, and in the time you take to tell people they're sad they can write a couple sentences about what they liked about a match. "Paragraphs upon paragraphs" generally takes 15 minutes, and it usually helps to understand why someone thinks that way rather than just throwing out "durrrr I liked it" and refusing to talk about it. Of course, if you do refuse to think while watching wrestling, that can help explain why AJ Styles is a favorite of yours.

[Coolclint 0]

But having 919 posts on a message board does equal a life? LOL

Since 2002...He's had 919 posts since April 2002. You've had 208 since May 2004. There's a logic gap here, since it's just about the same amount of posts per month as you.

 

Don't throw rocks in glass houses, CBenoit.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

I love wrestling more than just about anyone on this board, but you people who write paragraphs and paragraphs about actual matches and why they do and don't make sense and how they build and etc. etc. really do need to get a life. You are quite sad.

As opposed to.... reading the paragraphs upon paragraphs that they write..

 

Why would you sign up to a message board if you aren't going to write? Last time I checked, that's what they're for.

[Tawren 0]

I love wrestling more than just about anyone on this board, but you people who write paragraphs and paragraphs about actual matches and why they do and don't make sense and how they build and etc. etc. really do need to get a life. You are quite sad.

45 hours of non-TNA AJ Styles footage

[Guest dvkorn]

I think something that Meltzer said is well suited here...

 

People who have a narrow-minded view of what great wrestling is miss so much about what is often great about wrestling.

 

 

EDIT: and i should also say... when you watch something that has been hyped up so much on the internet... your expectations are much higher going in then they would be then say if you were seeing something live... and because it didn't live up to those high expectations the match doesn't seem as good as it is made out to be on the internet or wherever...

[Tim Cooke 0]

First, my apologies to DK if my response came off as jerky. Wasn't in the greatest mood yesterday.

 

Anyways.....

 

"I couldn't agree with you more. I know that work is only half the battle and honestly they accomplished that half IMO. As far as the intelligence in this match.........it's extremely low. I thought it was a fun match to watch however and I didn't get the trainwreck feel that you did Tim. Would you mind elaborating on that some? I'm not being a smartass.....I really would like to hear your opinion on it."

 

When I watched the match, I was never given something to latch on to and follow throughout the match. The opening minute or two at least established that both teams were pretty equal. Then they did a bunch of trading back and forth of moves before the face in peril segment happened. Then the high spots which climaxed at the top of the cage rana with everything afterwards losing me. Not that the cage rana had to end the match, but a little bit of spacing and thinking through of placement for spots would have been much appreciated.

 

From what I have read, the weeks leading up to the PPV, XXX has hand cuffed AMW numerous times and beat them down. Wouldn't AMW want to come out guns blazing and destroy XXX to start until something was able to turn the tide for XXX to get the match back in their favor? So then the fans would be clamoring for AMW to make the hot tag (and XXX handcuffing one of the AMW guys would have complimented the match really well), hot tag is made, AMW cleans house briefly and then they run the the 8 minutes of high spots and near finishes building from small to big, climaxing with AMW getting the most important victory of their careers.

 

Just some basic structure so that watching the match wasn't like trying to connect the dots of a biazzare picture. I doubt the match would have been as great as people are calling it now, but if it was at least laid out like that, they would have a better chance for crowd heat throughout the match (not just pleasing one person who likes to write some thoughts on wrestling).

 

"Also, I WILL try and stick up for the fact that neither team was booked as face or heel at least IMO."

 

Yea, I understand that. That is obviously the bookers responsibility first and foremost. But Daniels did try to heel it up a little but his partner couldn't be bothered to join in, probably worrying if he would die from the spot he would attempt later. AMW are natural faces. Honestly, I really liked them early on in TNA when they had Brian Lee and Slash to help them work through matches. They are a really neat southern babyface tag team, even modernized enough to work in 2004.

 

But your point about no heels or faces being booked doesn't make up for the fact that the first 3/4's of the match are basically worthless because the crowd obviously didn't care at all and it wasn't like they were building to the bigger spots. A face/heel dynamic at the very least (and I suspect it would have helped a lot more) would have been able to get crowd reactions for smaller spots earlier on and then would have shocked the crowd later with the big high spots. But since their first cage match was based on high risk spots and they didn't use a face/heel dynamic, they crowd was waiting for the high risk stuff.

 

"People always cheer Daniels no matter what and people always boo AMW no matter what. Not saying everyone, but the crowds are divided on those guys, so I would chalk this up to TNA being poor at not defining their roles for them in the match. The face in peril thing in essence shouldn't work well(and it really didn't in this case) if the roles aren't clear. I agree with you as far as the big spot should be the ending too..........."

 

Yea, it is the overall booking of TNA that lead them to this- plus running one place for 2 years and then running the same place for the last 5 months doesn't help as the same fans over and over will eventually dictate what they want.

 

As for the rana spot ending the match- it didn't have to if Daniels had hit his elbow prior off of the top of the cage, they figured a way to temporarily "KO" on member of XXX and then hit the finisher on the other member.

 

"Honestly, I think it would have been good if AMW went dick heel in this match considering the amount of blood that Daniels lost for no reason. They could have had them build to his juice in the typical "look at us making your hero bleed spot" and then XXX could have done the "we need to hit highspots to win.....we have nothing left" type ending. Maybe that isn't explaining it enough, but I think you'll know what I mean."

 

If AMW would have heeled it up, that would have been terrific. All I wanted to see was some type of heel/face dynamic, a staple of professional wrestling. Instead I got 4 guys beating each other up to stay together as a team. NO attachment. That's why I think most of the 2002 ROH stuff and some of the 2003-early 2004 ROH stuff is so over rated...too much face vs. face even though both act like heels throughout the match.

 

"The only thing I will add is the "Best match ever" etc. chants from the crowd. Regardless if the match was technically perfect or not, for TNA to get a crowd excited like that is a step in the right direction. If that match sucked, they need to do a lot more matches that suck."

 

Oh, the final minutes of the match no doubt satisfied the crowd. But what next? Surely the next matches will be disappointing if they don't feature such high risk stuff like rana's off of the top of the cage. The WWF had something special with their TLC matches and they have all but killed that gimmick off because of over use and bad booking with it. The next thing that would have had to happen to really pop the crowd would have been someone jump off of the roof of the building and go through a table.

 

"I love wrestling more than just about anyone on this board"

 

I love wrestling too, my bank statements prove that for better or for worse. In fact, 2004 was the best year I have had watching present wrestling since Feb-March 2001 with WCW. So your point?

 

"but you people who write paragraphs and paragraphs about actual matches and why they do and don't make sense and how they build and etc. etc. really do need to get a life. You are quite sad."

 

This is the best you can come back with? Honestly. I am writing this stuff while bored at work. I am not laboring on and on at all hours of the day just to get off by writing about a TNA match. But thanks for your contribution, I had a feeling this is what you would say.

 

Tim

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Oh, the final minutes of the match no doubt satisfied the crowd. But what next? Surely the next matches will be disappointing if they don't feature such high risk stuff like rana's off of the top of the cage. The WWF had something special with their TLC matches and they have all but killed that gimmick off because of over use and bad booking with it. The next thing that would have had to happen to really pop the crowd would have been someone jump off of the roof of the building and go through a table.

 

I agree that the booking would have to be smart to follow this up, but let's take this one step at a time.

 

First, this is TNA.

Second, the crowd WAS satisfied.

 

TNA has rarely been able to deliver a product that their audience wants. This match did just that, and considering TNA's recent circumstances, I can't see how that is a bad thing.

 

By the way, I would much rather you write a well thought out reason for disliking this match than saying, "It sucked". so if you are sad for writing it, what am I for reading it and appreciating it?

[Tim Cooke 0]

"TNA has rarely been able to deliver a product that their audience wants. This match did just that, and considering TNA's recent circumstances, I can't see how that is a bad thing."

 

It is short term thinking. Short term thinking will only end TNA up where WCW is now, dead.

 

It's a no win situation. The X-Division started off fairly hot with lots of new and innovative spots that no one had seen before on TV. It was fresh. But then the freshness wore off, wrestlers had to try to up themselves, and the matches became either masturbatory or just a bunch of spots, have hit and half blown.

 

If TNA had given their audience a product early on that actually followed some of the basic principles of wrestling, they would be fine by rolling out this glamorous spot fest because they could go back to having regular matches after the big spot fest was over and the crowd would be fine with it. But they didn't go that route so now they have to up the ante next time they want to put on something spectacular (unless they have some wrestlers who are able to connect with the audience through more than high spots).

 

If the next TNA PPV doesn't have something as high risk as the cage match from December, will the show be praised? I doubt it, unless they have the worlds most solid undercard, which they really don't.

 

Tim

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

First, my apologies to DK if my response came off as jerky. Wasn't in the greatest mood yesterday.

 

Not a problem Tim.....I didn't take it that way.

 

When I watched the match, I was never given something to latch on to and follow throughout the match. The opening minute or two at least established that both teams were pretty equal. Then they did a bunch of trading back and forth of moves before the face in peril segment happened. Then the high spots which climaxed at the top of the cage rana with everything afterwards losing me. Not that the cage rana had to end the match, but a little bit of spacing and thinking through of placement for spots would have been much appreciated.

 

OK, now I see where you're coming from. Thanks Tim.....

 

From what I have read, the weeks leading up to the PPV, XXX has hand cuffed AMW numerous times and beat them down. Wouldn't AMW want to come out guns blazing and destroy XXX to start until something was able to turn the tide for XXX to get the match back in their favor? So then the fans would be clamoring for AMW to make the hot tag (and XXX handcuffing one of the AMW guys would have complimented the match really well), hot tag is made, AMW cleans house briefly and then they run the the 8 minutes of high spots and near finishes building from small to big, climaxing with AMW getting the most important victory of their careers.

 

Well, Tim....they had exactly the spot you were talking about for XXX to come back on them after the initial onslaught, too bad that they didn't do it correctly (I was thinking the handcuffs would have been good in the case of XXX but they did the handcuff thing at the wrong time) so I would agree with what you said on that.

 

Just some basic structure so that watching the match wasn't like trying to connect the dots of a biazzare picture. I doubt the match would have been as great as people are calling it now, but if it was at least laid out like that, they would have a better chance for crowd heat throughout the match (not just pleasing one person who likes to write some thoughts on wrestling).

 

Well, I actually feel that it WOULD have been better if it did have better structure......but most people are happy with highspots........so it may have been better for me though.

 

But your point about no heels or faces being booked doesn't make up for the fact that the first 3/4's of the match are basically worthless because the crowd obviously didn't care at all and it wasn't like they were building to the bigger spots. A face/heel dynamic at the very least (and I suspect it would have helped a lot more) would have been able to get crowd reactions for smaller spots earlier on and then would have shocked the crowd later with the big high spots. But since their first cage match was based on high risk spots and they didn't use a face/heel dynamic, they crowd was waiting for the high risk stuff.

 

For the record.........I agree that the heels and faces thing doesn't make up for the beginning of the match. I was just making the point that if it was more clear to the crowd who they should be reacting too, then it would have made for a hotter match. I don't know if I agree that the first match had much bearing on the crowd for this one either. That is assuming that a lot of the people in attendance didn't start watching the product until Impact started.......so they might not be as familiar with the older product as a result. I admit that is just a guess, but it's still food for thought.

 

If AMW would have heeled it up, that would have been terrific. All I wanted to see was some type of heel/face dynamic, a staple of professional wrestling. Instead I got 4 guys beating each other up to stay together as a team. NO attachment. That's why I think most of the 2002 ROH stuff and some of the 2003-early 2004 ROH stuff is so over rated...too much face vs. face even though both act like heels throughout the match

 

Another reason why I wanted to see AMW doing the dick heel thing as it would have at least freshened them up a bit. I'm not saying that they would have to go full out heel for months or anything.......but it would have been cool if it was only for this match.

[Guest Loss]

Good thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Tim.

 

I don't see what the problem was about naming the things he did and didn't like about the match. How else are we supposed to understand his point of view?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Good thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Tim.

 

I don't see what the problem was about naming the things he did and didn't like about the match. How else are we supposed to understand his point of view?

Not to mention that.....but I actually agree with him on several of his points.

 

I would say that this thread is good for the TNA folder. For once it's not a bullshit goofball thread that's just for comedy(not that there is anything wrong with that.....but it's a nice change)........

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The only major gripe I had with this match was Daniels bleeding less than five minutes in. When a match is going 20 minutes, you don't get color so soon; it's better to save it until just past the half way mark, because then you can use a big move to get it, which in turn gets over the brutality of the match more. As it is, it came way too early, and didn't have anywhere near the meaning it could have had.

[RedJed 0]

People who have a narrow-minded view of what great wrestling is miss so much about what is often great about wrestling.

 

Thats a good point, thats kind of what I was trying to get at - although I admittedly went overboard on trying to make that point previously.

 

Bottom line though is that everyone has their own opinion on what they feel is a good match and what isnt. For every person that thinks that a technical masterpiece is the best match ever, another person will think its boring. Everyone has their own criteria for judging what makes a match ***, ** 1/2, ****, whatever. So to each their own.

 

My major argument was that a match that had me personally on my feet near the end of it in anticipation of the finish would no way get only *** 1/2 from me and I am really shocked that anyone would rate this match that low. But as I said, to each their own - but it's just something I still don't get after reading long winded post after long winded post here. Alot of the points made about the structure of the match and build of it being weak - I didnt see personally, but I've only watched it a few times and I'm not one to breakdown a match piece by piece in most cases, which maybe is the difference here. I felt XXX had been established enough as the heels in the weeks past on Impact as well, with teams like the Naturals actually helping XXX assault AMW before, etc. I dont think I mind that the heels and faces werent defined though to the n'th degree but thats just me (and maybe my love to ECW). All I know was it started out fast with some good cage brawling, early blood, and in general, not wasting much time to get somewhere. Thats not always a bad thing to me.

 

Working the highspots at a certain time, such as doing Daniels elbow some other time, wasnt a big deal to me since logic concludes that he was up by the top of the cage anyway after the Skipper highspot and they were going to attempt to finish off Harris with the two big manuevers one after another. I feel like its a tit for a tat when things get this detailed in determining why a match sucks or why it kicks ass. So I wont get into things anymore than that as far as a lack of organization of spots does not really turn me off from a match enough to hurt its rating. Example - even though I dont think it was the greatest match ever, Foley taking the fall from the HIAC match with Taker right away didnt make it a worse rated match if it would have been held til the end of the match.

 

One thing though, dont get it twisted that in no way, shape, or form do I think this is a "classic" - all I'm stating is that it is one of the better TNA matches ever, and to be probably **** or **** 1/2 according to my criteria (which definately isnt the same as Tims but thats ok)

 

Numerous RAW main events this year got that sort of *** 1/2 feeling from me, and this was nothing near those in terms of overall quality - this was way better and memorable to me than those RAW matches. *** 1/2 to me is something that is solid but probably not one that I would feel compelled to watch more than once or really sticks in my head as something "wow".

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

It is short term thinking. Short term thinking will only end TNA up where WCW is now, dead.

How do we know? TNA has NEVER been consistent. You have to have long term goals, but those goals are reached through accomplishing a series of short term goals.

 

Step 1) please crowd

Step 2) follow up.

 

I will say that I have no faith in TNA to properly book the follow up to this match. The booking will be all over the place, inconsistent, bad, and won't lead us anywhere. That's what Tna has shown me in their history. However, the question was only about this match, and I thought it was good.

 

I don't think the points about well defined heel and face is realistic in 2004. Those lines were blurred many years ago, and now fans are condiioned to cheer whoever they like the best. I'm not saying it's good for wrestling, but it's hardly TNA's fault