An open question

[Precious Roy 0]

I don't think Jericho's potential has been wasted. He's more or less a JTTS, yet is STILL one of the most consistently over guys in the company, and he can always get back his heat after a loss just by talking. If they ever have the brains to pull the trigger on another title run, as a face this time, I see no reason for him not to become an even bigger star than he is, it's just a matter of them going that route with him. Face Jericho v. heel HHH is still a money feud in my eyes. But either way, he is rather bulletproof, yet could still be so much more than what he is.

 

I still think RVD could get over like he was during the Invasion, he has the ability, the crowd still marks out for him, it's just a question of the E having the faith to push him and him becoming more motivated after being convinced that the E actually has plans for him. His staleness has just as much to do with his attitude as his booking, but I don't see him as a lost cause yet, just an unlikely case of righting the ship.

 

I think Hurricane and Tajiri have been wasted horribly, another case Vince's size fetish burying extremely talented performers who the crowd wants to support. Will they ever live up to their potential? Probably not, but it's still there.

 

The one guy I get the most bummed over is Val Venis. He was basically the WWE prototype, big guy with a great look who can work the "WWE Style" as well as anyone, yet they misbooked him so much that he's become an afterthought to the fans. I still think of a match he had with Steve Austin on SD back in the day where he showed the potential to be a main-eventer, put on a super hot match, but the E just never handled him right, and fans just refuse to take the gimmick seriously.

[iggymcfly 0]

You know what's weird? It's like Jericho knows all that. He always states in his interviews that winning and losing don't matter to his character anymore because he is bulletproof. I think him, RVD and Rey are about the only guys who can say that.

Rock, even though he isn't around anymore, is more bulletproof than anyone.

Ah yes, that's right. Rock is totally bulletproof, which was why he could put over Jericho in 2001 without blinking. Good call.

How come when Rock has a months-long feud with Jericho in which he never gets pinned clean once, but he pins Jericho multiple times including once with a DDT, he gets credit for being the bigger man, but Undertaker can put over Brock clean eight different times and he gets no credit at all.

 

That's one thing I never got.

 

Until Rock started making movies, he hadn't put over anybody clean in four years. In fact, if he'd been sticking around, I wouldn't have put it past him to refuse to job to Brock at Summerslam.

 

When you go four years without a clean loss, it's a lot easier to be "bulletproof" than it is when you're getting pinned clean on television every other week.

[Dark Age 0]

How come when Rock has a months-long feud with Jericho in which he never gets pinned clean once, but he pins Jericho multiple times including once with a DDT, he gets credit for being the bigger man, but Undertaker can put over Brock clean eight different times and he gets no credit at all.

 

A months long feud in which he jobbed THREE times on PPV to Jericho, with zero PPV wins in return. One defeat was as clean as you get in 'big' WWE matches. Jericho had Rock beat with the Walls Of Jericho, then Stephanie McMahon got involved. Distractions lead to a chair ending up in the ring, yet Jericho ends up with the victory, via the BreakDown. That's clean enough for me. Vengeance, Jericho was the heel. His entire heel run, he was put over as a joke. He wasn't MEANT to win matches clean. And he didn't need to - IF they would have done it right i.e Jericho cheating, but booked to look smart, do it on his own. That means winning like he did against Rock, not like he did against Austin. At Vengeance, Jericho beat Rock WITH HIS OWN MOVE. When does that ever happen?

 

At Royal Rumble, Jericho's win was far from clean - but he done it on his own. The not-yet-named Un-Americans interfered, but didn't get the job done. Jericho looked doomed, but with the odds against him, pulled out the victory. He cheated, it wasn't clean - but it did A LOT more for Jericho than any other match in his heel run did.

 

Jericho also pinned Rock in a Triple Threat title match on Raw. He also pinned him in two (maybe three) tag matches, one of which, again, with Rock's own move. That's six or seven pins Jericho registered on Rock in the space of about three months. And through it all, Jericho came out the champion AND with the last laugh on Rocky. In big matches, Jericho DOMINATED Rock. Rock's only victories came in a title match on Raw (in which Jericho beat the crap out of him after the match, drawing huge heel heat), which he only squeezed out with a small package, and in a couple of tag matches. You honestly think Rock's tag victories compare to Jericho's PPV title wins? No, they don't.

 

Rock did more for Jericho than anyone else has in Jericho's entire WWE run. He put him over on three PPVs, made him look like a threat, didn't make him look like a joke. This all with Jericho as a heel, Rock as a face. How many other big matches has Jericho won? Well, he's jobbed three times to Triple H. Twice to Angle. Lost one to Kane, won once. Is 2-4 against Benoit. 0-2 against RVD. 2-2 against Austin (and if you want to complain about being made to look like a joke, look no further than Jericho's matches with Austin). 1-1 against Flair. 1-1 against Booker. 0-3 against Shawn. And yet through it all, you have the nerve to complain about how Jericho has been treated by ROCK?!? Jericho has been made to look like a joke. Rocky tried to give him credibility. What a fool you are.

 

Undertaker hasn't put Brock over clean eight times, so just shut the fuck up. Taker's jobbed to Brock TWICE. One in HIAC with a 'broken' hand, and once with four different guys interfering, a steel chain, a ref bump and everything else it takes to beat him. TWICE he's jobbed to Brock. Once clean. Once everything BUT clean. In return, he beat Brock (clean) in a triple threat match, and in that whacky 3/5 falls, No DQ, Falls Count Anywhere Handicap match, or whatever the hell it was. Rock, on the other hand, put Brock over 100% clean, no questions asked, no debate. So, once again, just be quiet, because you don't have a clue.

 

Until Rock started making movies, he hadn't put over anybody clean in four years. In fact, if he'd been sticking around, I wouldn't have put it past him to refuse to job to Brock at Summerslam

 

Rock's first movie (I think) came out around Backlash 2000. It was onlt a bit part, but still. When he started 'for real', he took off at WM17. WrestleMania 2001. Rock debuted just a bit over four year prior to that. So, AGAIN, just shut up, because you are full of shit.

 

I have no idea why you think he wouldn't have put Brock over. Your just letting personal biases get in the way, so there is no point even arguing it with you.

 

When you go four years without a clean loss, it's a lot easier to be "bulletproof" than it is when you're getting pinned clean on television every other week.

 

Once again, stop talking crap. Rock didn't go four year without being pinned clean. If you want to talk crap, tell me, when was the last time your buddy the Undertaker was pinned clean? Only Taker losses I can think of that were even SLIGHTLY clean were his losses to Brock at No Mercy 2002 and... and that's it. A lot of clean jobs there, huh?

[Precious Roy 0]

The last clean Taker job I remember was against Austin at SummerSlam 98. Stunner, clean pin. I don't think he's dropped a match that didn't involve bullshit since then, and if he did, it wasn't anything that mattered.

 

0-3 against Shawn.

 

Jericho made HBK tap to the Walls on the LA RAW in 2003, the Mania rematch. It involved a ton of interference, but he still made him tap.....

[Guest Mordecai's Cathedral]

Tazz - Vince McMahon said on the ECW DVD that he was a huge fan of Taz's character and the character that Heyman built Taz into. He had the debut victory over Kurt Angle, ending Kurt's undefeated streak. So what the hell happened? They should have went with the whole "Team Taz" fight night entrance and he should have worked programs with Rock, Benoit, etc. Even during the Invasion, fans were ready to pop huge for him and he instead got punked out by Austin. He deserved a better WWE run.

I was waiting for someone to mention Tazz. The reaction he got when he debuted against Angle was loud. I just don't get why WWE screwed him over. He was extremely over and had a great character. First they make him end Angle's undefeated streak relatively easy and then they suddenly bury him like there's no tomorrow. Why Vince would do that is beyond me... (Yeah, okay. Apart from "He's not a WWE creation")

[Precious Roy 0]

The reason I've always heard is that Vince decided he looked too small compared to his big stars, and that it didn't really set in with him until he actually saw it in his own ring and then decided it was unbelieveable for Taz to compete with Rock, Austin, Undertaker HHH etc. Take that for what it's worth....

[jester 0]

Undertaker hasn't put Brock over clean eight times, so just shut the fuck up. Taker's jobbed to Brock TWICE. One in HIAC with a 'broken' hand, and once with four different guys interfering, a steel chain, a ref bump and everything else it takes to beat him. TWICE he's jobbed to Brock. Once clean. Once everything BUT clean. In return, he beat Brock (clean) in a triple threat match, and in that whacky 3/5 falls, No DQ, Falls Count Anywhere Handicap match, or whatever the hell it was. Rock, on the other hand, put Brock over 100% clean, no questions asked, no debate. So, once again, just be quiet, because you don't have a clue.

THANK YOU. "The Undertaker put over Brock" is one of my favourite WWE myths, right up there with "The Ultimate Warrior died" and "Hogan just wants to do the right thing."

 

Anything that UT ever gave to Brock he got back, and then some. He pinned Brock in a handicap match when it was UT vs Brock and Bigshow, while heel GM Heyman was changing the rules in his favor.

 

Taker doesn't even squash individual wrestlers, but tag teams and whole heel factions. Meanwhile, Brock has to sell for Bob Holly.

 

And they wonder why Brock got fed up and left.

[Guest LooneyTune]

You forgot Brock was booked strong and went over everyone he faced except for Angle & Undertaker up until the Holly feud, so being fed up with 1 program is a little lame to give for a reason why someone left. Have I mentioned every Undertaker feud from 1992-1995?

 

Feud with Hardyz when he debuted: Major Squash

Mini-Feud with Bubba Dudley- Squash

Mini-Feud with RVD - Didn't last long, but won KOTR vs. RVD.

Mini-Feud with Hogan - won clean and pretty much destroyed Hogan.

Feud with Rock - Went over clean

Feud with UT #1 - Won the blowoff clean

Feud with Show - Manhandled him in every match, although lost the title only because he was injured by him.

Feud with Team Angle - Squashed both of them in house show matches.

Feud with Angle - Only time someone got the upper-hand on Brock.

Feud with Cena - Won clean

Feud with Show #2 - A little more even, but still won clean.

Feud with UT #2 - Won, although lots of interference.

Feud with Angle #2 - Made Angle his bitch in the Iron Man Match.

Mini-Feud wth Benoit - Won

Feud with Holly - Although horrible booking, won clean.

[zyn081 0]

I wish they would do something with Charlie Haas...I was pissed when TWGTT was split up and even though Sheltons got the IC belt(until Maven takes it from him) I would still rather see them together as opposed to what Haas is doing now...they've got him stuck with F'n Holly and he keeps losing! I can't stand watching them ruin these guys who could actually go out there and put on great matches. Cena is stale right now but I don't see him losing the US title anytime soon so why not give him a fresh opponent like Haas who can help carry Cena...they could have a great feud..and then give Haas the belt so that Cena can get the strap from JBL at Mania although I think that there's no time to do it right but with the WWE they don't care about time so who knows...but at this rate Haas will never be anything more than a jobber

What happened Hass-Jackie-Dawn Marie?

[Guest LooneyTune]

They had Haas (not Hass) dump Miss Jackie at Armageddon, saying he was sleeping around with Marie. Then he called her a slut, and somehow remained a face and is teaming with Hardcore Holly on Velocity.

[justcoz 0]

The reason I've always heard is that Vince decided he looked too small compared to his big stars, and that it didn't really set in with him until he actually saw it in his own ring and then decided it was unbelieveable for Taz to compete with Rock, Austin, Undertaker HHH etc. Take that for what it's worth....

 

Well, Vince actually saw Taz in a WWF ring years before he signed him to a contract when ECW invaded the Raw anniversary show at the Manhatten Center in New York. Taz wrestled that night.

 

Add two more people to my list although in smaller roles. Spanky and Paul London had all the ingredients to become this generation's Rockers, Rock n Roll Express and Hardys. The pretty boy faces who lacked the size but had all the heart and ability. When a creative team says, "we don't know what to do with you guys, let's put you on velocity", that just screams to me that they don't know or understand the wrestling business. If you would have thrown a Spanky/London team on the roster with a Jim Cornette, Paul Heyman, Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair, Bill Watts or even Kevin Sullivan booking, they would have known exactly what roles to put them in and Spanky would have been bumping like Ricky Morton to the screams of teenage girls across the country.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

There are so many guys the WWE f'd up with, its actually really upsetting to think about.

 

For me, the most glaring mistake was with Jericho. If you recall when he debuted he was on par, in terms of being seen as a star with The Rock. And then within a week or two, instead of being in programs with guys liek Rock and Taker, he was with......Pac and Road Dogg!!! Nice!

 

I agree with the guys who are saying Rock did a lot for him. I think I've read in some places that Rock and Jericho were pretty tight, so that probably explains why Rock sacrificed so much for him. Too bad all the main eventers didn't have the mentality of Rock and Foley.

 

Jericho had all the tools to be the next big star, and in part thats probably what cost him. Because another guy was just starting his main event push when Jericho came in, and coincidentally Jericho wasn't pushed to the top.

 

Benoit was also handled badly. They got him basically as the uncrowned WCW champion, you would think they could make some money off that, but they didn't.

 

In both Jericho and Benoit's case, I believe they waited too long, and when they did put the World Titles on them, the fans seen them as mid carders 4 life, and those guys never draw as champions.

 

With that said, I never really thought Benoit could draw big money. But I did think he could have been a solid second tier main eventer, and could have complemented a guy like Jericho very well in main event programs.

 

RVD and Tazz were totally botched. During the Invasion fans were dying to cheer for someone over Austin. They could have kicked off the brand extension then, if they would have split off WCW/ECW and WWF as separate shows. WCW could have played heels, led by Austin and fued with RVD and Tazz on one show, while the WWF guys do their on thing ont heir show.

 

Angle was also handled badly, especially in the Summer of 2001. Nobody could have predicted 9/11, but its funny how Angle looked like this ultra tough badass in his Summerslam match with Austin, and then if they would have followed that up by making him a kick ass face, instead of a goofy ass face with a kiddy pool, they might have had something. After 9/11 he would have been the logical guy for the fans to rally behind.

 

Lesnar was even botched a fair bit. The whole thing with him jobbing to Show killed a lot of his mystique, and on top of that, I never thought he fit right as a babyface. But what I thought really hurt him was his program with Cena. They had Cena come across as the face, and with his character being so fresh, it kinda made Lesnar look stupid.

 

As for the Taker-Brock issue, I'm of the mind that Taker only did business the right way ONCE with Brock and that was in HIAC. Even though Taker had the arm to use a crutch for losing (can he ever just freaking' lose?), he did bleed a ton, and made Brock look pretty tough. But every other match, I felt they made Brock look weaker and weaker against Taker. Which made no sense.

 

Another problem that I feel caused a lot of problems is that Austin never put anyone over. Austin was seen as the top guy by just about all the fans, and yet they never had him put over any up and coming stars. Much like Hogan before him, you never had that transition from one star to a new one. Austin just left and then he couldn't wrestle anymore. Hogan did essentially the same thing, except he then went to WCW.

[Guest BDC]

Even worse with Austin, when Foley pinned him (the match Ventura reffed) with the double arm DDT, it was Austin's first clean loss in three years.

 

I hated that stretch because NO ONE looked like a credible threat.

[Guest Loss]

I think Austin is a large part of the reason Kurt Angle, Booker T and Chris Jericho are seen the way they are currently seen. While he defeated Benoit in their matches, he did everything possible to make Benoit look credible, and losing to Austin actually got him more over. Jericho has more wins over Austin than anyone has ever gotten except maybe 'Taker, but only one match they had (the HHH Quad Tear match) was done properly.

 

I do think Austin v Jericho at Vengeance '01 is overrated in some ways, and that was definitely a case of Austin selling like crazy for Jericho, who controlled almost all of the match. The finish was overbooked beyond belief, though, and we now know that's because Austin refused to do a clean job.

 

The Austin/Jericho Smackdown match from August of '01 was also a tremendous example of Austin going out of his way to make Jericho's wacky arm submissions look good, squeaking by with a pinfall where Jericho looked like he was robbed. It was never followed up and should have been.

 

The June '01 RAW match, the squash on the Dec '01 RAW, the cage match the night after Vengeance and the No Way Out '02 match were all disasters, and those are more the ones people remember.

[bob_barron 0]

How is the Vengeance match overrated when no one really likes it and everyone says it's overbooked to hell?

[Black Lushus 0]

when are people going to let that Val venis pipe dream go? shit, Im surprised no one mentioned freaking steven richards yet...

[justcoz 0]

Stevie couldn't be a main eventer or pushed to any great extreme because of his injuries. However, he could be entertaining as demonstrated in ECW and anytime he's been given an opportunity to work the mic in WWE. He could still be a valuable part of the roster rather than someone who can't even get on television.

[Guest Loss]

How is the Vengeance match overrated when no one really likes it and everyone says it's overbooked to hell?

I meant to say underrated.

[bob_barron 0]

Oh okay- Fair enough.

 

I don't remember getting into that match or any other Y2J v. Austin match except for the August SD! match. Both guys seemed pretty gassed and all the run ins at the end were tiring

[humongous2002 0]

Stevie couldn't be a main eventer or pushed to any great extreme because of his injuries. However, he could be entertaining as demonstrated in ECW and anytime he's been given an opportunity to work the mic in WWE. He could still be a valuable part of the roster rather than someone who can't even get on television.

Richards entertaining? A big YES.

Main Event entertaining? Hell no.

[zyn081 0]

They had Haas (not Hass) dump Miss Jackie at Armageddon, saying he was sleeping around with Marie. Then he called her a slut, and somehow remained a face and is teaming with Hardcore Holly on Velocity.

Thanks for pointing out the typo

 

Yes, so the angle is just going to be left like that? HaAs calling her a slut.

[zyn081 0]

There are so many guys the WWE f'd up with, its actually really upsetting to think about.

 

For me, the most glaring mistake was with Jericho. If you recall when he debuted he was on par, in terms of being seen as a star with The Rock. And then within a week or two, instead of being in programs with guys liek Rock and Taker, he was with......Pac and Road Dogg!!! Nice!

 

I agree with the guys who are saying Rock did a lot for him. I think I've read in some places that Rock and Jericho were pretty tight, so that probably explains why Rock sacrificed so much for him. Too bad all the main eventers didn't have the mentality of Rock and Foley.

 

Jericho had all the tools to be the next big star, and in part thats probably what cost him. Because another guy was just starting his main event push when Jericho came in, and coincidentally Jericho wasn't pushed to the top.

 

Benoit was also handled badly. They got him basically as the uncrowned WCW champion, you would think they could make some money off that, but they didn't.

 

In both Jericho and Benoit's case, I believe they waited too long, and when they did put the World Titles on them, the fans seen them as mid carders 4 life, and those guys never draw as champions.

 

With that said, I never really thought Benoit could draw big money. But I did think he could have been a solid second tier main eventer, and could have complemented a guy like Jericho very well in main event programs.

 

RVD and Tazz were totally botched. During the Invasion fans were dying to cheer for someone over Austin. They could have kicked off the brand extension then, if they would have split off WCW/ECW and WWF as separate shows. WCW could have played heels, led by Austin and fued with RVD and Tazz on one show, while the WWF guys do their on thing ont heir show.

 

Angle was also handled badly, especially in the Summer of 2001. Nobody could have predicted 9/11, but its funny how Angle looked like this ultra tough badass in his Summerslam match with Austin, and then if they would have followed that up by making him a kick ass face, instead of a goofy ass face with a kiddy pool, they might have had something. After 9/11 he would have been the logical guy for the fans to rally behind.

 

Lesnar was even botched a fair bit. The whole thing with him jobbing to Show killed a lot of his mystique, and on top of that, I never thought he fit right as a babyface. But what I thought really hurt him was his program with Cena. They had Cena come across as the face, and with his character being so fresh, it kinda made Lesnar look stupid.

 

As for the Taker-Brock issue, I'm of the mind that Taker only did business the right way ONCE with Brock and that was in HIAC. Even though Taker had the arm to use a crutch for losing (can he ever just freaking' lose?), he did bleed a ton, and made Brock look pretty tough. But every other match, I felt they made Brock look weaker and weaker against Taker. Which made no sense.

 

Another problem that I feel caused a lot of problems is that Austin never put anyone over. Austin was seen as the top guy by just about all the fans, and yet they never had him put over any up and coming stars. Much like Hogan before him, you never had that transition from one star to a new one. Austin just left and then he couldn't wrestle anymore. Hogan did essentially the same thing, except he then went to WCW.

Jericho is too small for Vince, so is Benoit.

 

Remember the hype and promos Jericho got before he started with the WWE and started a feud with The Rock. That went on to were?

 

Look at what Foley did for Orton.

 

They had the unofficial WCW Champ in their fold, the reverse of Hart. They could have pimped this huge, Benoit being stripped because he joined the WWE, they could have had a WWE Title match with Benoit vs whoever was the champ at the time, to crown the REAL WORLDS HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP.

 

RVDs so stiff and been screwed over so many times, he couldnt care less. Same for Booker. Tazz was too small for Vince.

 

Angle's seen too much of a joke, Brock too unstable. Cena was so over this time last year.

 

UT doesnt job nor sell. Thats his gimmick.

 

Weve never had a proper passing of the torch, in any promotion. I think HBK-Austin at WM was the closest thing youll ever get.