Eddy/JBL 2004 MOTY

[Mole 0]

I only saw one PPV this year, WM XX, and HBK vs. HHH vs. Benoit is the MOTY from what I saw.

[Precious Roy 0]

That's because in a good match, the action builds towards a finish. In a match with a DQ, there is no actual finish. Rather, the match is ended abruptly by the referee because of a rules violation. Thus a major component of the match is missing.

 

Ahhh, but you contradict yourself here. A DQ is a finish, and there are many examples of matches that build to a DQ rather than a clean pinfall, and do so well. Austin/Angle, Austin/HBK, Taker/HBK from Ground Zero, these are all very good matches where the internal story and progress of the match led to the disqualification.

[JoeDirt 0]

I can buy this as being the WWE MOTY. It's one match I got into a lot, and didn't think I would at all going in.

 

But without Eddy's bladejob, I agree that it wouldn't be very memorable. I don't remember a lot from the first half of the match, just Bradshaw hitting a fallaway slam on the announce table.

 

Good match, one I'd like to see for a second time. I never did see their GAB match, either.

 

I liked Brock vs. Eddie, WM main event, and JBL/Eddie this year. Not sure what I'd pick for a WWE MOTY though.

[Angle-plex 0]

Benoit had a storyline that added to that match?

 

I agree that Benoit/HHH/HBK was MOTY, although it still wasn't ***** like some say. I didn't see the Eddie/JBL match but found Eddie/Brock to be nothing special. I think most say Eddie/Brock is better than it really is because of the emotional aspects of Eddie's title victory.

 

Funny you say that about Eddie/Brock when naming Benoit/Triple H/Shawn as your MOTY (a match that is could also be filed as overrated, due to the fact that Benoit won).

It was highly overrated. I'd put it at about ****.

 

Which, from what I saw from WWE this year, puts it at MOTY.

[Guest Evolution]

I also think Eddy's sick bladejob was completely unecessary and instead of me focusing on the match I just thought it was disgusting.

I think some people may have found it disgusting, but for the majority (and for just about every smart mark), I think they were worried that this would be the night that JBL wins the WWE Title. They saw Eddie take a monster chairshot and then blade like a madman and wondered if this would be the big one for JBL. I remember sitting in the theater and watching Eddie bleed and bleed and I was convinced that this would be the night JBL would win the title.

 

So they got me there.

[tekcop 0]

I haven't seen this since I aired, but I do remember loving it at the time. I'd probably consider it one of my favorite WWE matches from last year behind Eddie/Brock and Shawn/Benoit II.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"The DQ finish is still kinda weak. It was the best way to protect both JBL and Eddie that I can think of, but it would've been better if the match had been lower in the card so that the main event would be able to deliver on Vince's usually policy of letting the fans go home happy (because I believe the last image that fans at Judgment Day saw was Eddie getting carried away after passing out from the blood loss)."

 

Ever since the downwards trend that the WWE has been encountering since late 2001, they have seemed to abandon the policy of leaving the fans happy at the end of the show. Part of this is Trips and his "must main event" philosophy. I think Eddy/JBL needed to be the main event just to get the feud started right. Any lower and it would have looked like a second fiddle. But I agree in most cases, you should leave the fans happy or totally shocked so they have a reason to come back.

 

 

"Not Match of the Year, because the Great American Bash was better due to using the gimmick to what I thought was near-perfection"

 

I watched the Great American Bash yesterday. It's a good match, probably around ***1/2ish, but as much as it plays to the strengths of a strap/bullrope match, it also suffers within the confines. Vader/Sting from Superbrawl III is the ultimate gimmick match for me (and happens to a strap match). They work the gimmick as well as it has ever been done, wrestling their match but at the same time adding in the strap spots. Eddy/JBL wrestled more towards the straps strengths than their first match strengths. It produced a lesser match. But the big thing was the finish. There is no reason that JBL shouldn't have been declared the winner without the Dusty finish. Eddy's facial expressions of losing the belt would have meant even more and it wouldn't have been so screwy. Now Eddy should have of course won the belt back on Smackdown in the cage to end their feud, but that defies WWE logic.

 

"but reading your analysis made me appreciate the Judgment Day match a lot more than just for Eddie's bladejob."

 

I loved the blood. It was a key to the match. But the structure of the match plus the smart way they worked their moves and sold was the real key for me.

 

 

"And I agree that a DQ finish or a run-in does not guarantee a match not being great. In the case of Eddie/Lesnar that was previously mentioned, that run-in was amazing and though some fans thought it cheated the title victory for Eddie, they would soon come to realize that Eddie would be all about the cheating, even as a face."

 

My problem with the Brock/Eddy match is not the run in, but the fact that the ref was down for WAY too long, despite the ref bump not being too severe. There are other problems with that match (Brock not having smart ways of killing time is the big thing) but the ref staying down so long made me groan big time.

 

S_D wrote:

 

"I only remember this match for Eddie's monster blade job and JBL sucking wind after 10 minutes. Match of the Year? My left nut."

 

Well, at least you remember one of two things correctly. Eddy did have a monster blade job but JBL was NOT sucking wind. I can only guess that this is another SKeith myth, since he wanted to believe JBL was blown up. Watch the match, he wasn't. If you want to see someone sucking wind, watch Kurt Angle after the opening of the Benoit/Angle Wrestlemania 17 match.

 

"Eddie's bladejob makes the match."

 

I have had this debate at a few other boards. A good blade job in this match will do it. Eddy just happened to hit a huge gusher. A Rock blade job (very little blood) wouldn't have worked but any normal blade job would have had the same effect. The extra blood helped, but did it really make all the difference in the world. JBL's blade job at GAB was much less than Eddy's yet it was a good one, one that I can see Eddy doing and not having the Judgement Day match lose a step.

 

The other thing is the underlying work. You could bleed buckets from the start of the match until the end, and blood would be the only attraction if you didn't know how to work. Everything they did in the non-blood segments was crucial to the bloody sections. Anyone can work a bloody match-see ECW. But to make it more than that, you need substance. Eddy/JBL had that.

 

Tim

[Guest nikowwf]

i cant call that moty because i dont even remember it that well...except for the blood. to me, that match, which I DID NOT want to see, and which had such a bad finish, had to make up for that by being clearly better than the other candidates to be moty. The title match from mania, which had mega heat, benoit winning the title, was much better and had the right finish.

[Guest Loss]

The problem is that a well-booked match doesn't make a great match. Benoit winning the title was the right decision, and the post-match celebration was tremendous. If I was asked, though, to recall spots off the top of my head from the WM main event, here's what I'd recall:

 

* Shawn's moonsault from the turnbuckle to the floor

* the double suplex from HHH and HBK on the announce table

* Shawn calling HHH into the ring

* The finish of HHH tapping out to the crossface

 

I had problems with this match because I felt it was hypocritical. HHH is on record many times saying that a great match doesn't require going through tables and highspots galore, to a point where management has started listening to him and the agents have stripped the undercard of a lot of the offense that has made them unique. I agree that the main event should be special, so if they were going to pull this, this was the place to do it, but HHH is just as guilty of those tricks as he accuses everyone else of being. Was there enough substance in this match for it to hold up without the blood and table breaking and highspots? And isn't HHH hypocritical for pointing out how the wrestlers seem unwilling to tell a story the old-fashioned way while relying on the same cheap thrills here? I thought it was an entertaining match, and the "best three-way ever" label certainly applies, but there's so much that this match lacked that it needed.

 

The storyline is often a reason cited for people calling HHH/HBK/Benoit the match of the year, but the storyline is awfully hollow. Benoit had a ready-made storyline with Brock on Smackdown where he was chasing the belt, and had he stayed there, the victory would have meant more than jumping to RAW just because he wanted to defeat HHH. That did more to put over HHH than it did to put over Benoit, and it also made Smackdown appear to be the inferior brand with the inferior champion. Benoit lost to Lesnar and just gave up before jumping shows. Heyman was making his life Hell and he just gave up so he wouldn't have to deal with it. He needed to overcome those obstacles instead of running from them. It's why I've often argued that Eddy Guerrero should have both defeated his brother at the Rumble and then gone on to win the title shot later in the night. Eddy hadn't even bothered addressing Lesnar at that point, so jumping to RAW and starting a feud with HHH would have been far less of a leap in logic. He resolved his family issues and then won the Rumble, which is a microcosm of what the bigger story could have been, which was that he overcame the adversity of having his family against him before moving on to bigger and better things.

 

I've heard a tremendous about of praise for the triple threat match, and much of what is said is deserved praise. But aside from "because Benoit won" or "because it was great" or "because of the storyline", I haven't heard anyone really argue much about the work *in* the match. I'm sure someone will step in and say "IT ENTERTAINED ME MORE THAN THE EDDY/JBL MATCH", which is fine in and of itself, but the best matches aren't often the most entertaining ones, or else Angle/Show from Backlash '00 would have been an MOTYC.

[bob_barron 0]

Part of it is the atmosphere of the match- Wrestlemania XX, Madison Square Garden, crowd going crazy for Benoit- that's what makes the match.

 

I've seen the triple threat about 15-20 times- I never tire of it. I pretty much have the match memorised.

 

The table spot has a purpose though. HBK and HHH spend the whole match trying to get at each other but Benoit constantly gets in the way so they decide to team up for one second and put him through a table. This also creates perfect drama when HHH pedigrees HBK and everyone assumes Benoit is dead. Watching MSG beg and plead with Benoit to get up is great.

[Black Lushus 0]

he addressed that stuff though, Bob...he's looking for something OTHER than phsycology that sets this match apart from others...there are tons of shitty matches that are so covered by physcology and how the crowd reacts etc. that we don't notice the matches with actual workrate...

[Guest Loss]

Part of it is the atmosphere of the match- Wrestlemania XX, Madison Square Garden, crowd going crazy for Benoit- that's what makes the match.

Undoubtedly. So, if Eddy v JBL would have happened in MSG with a well-crafted storyline and this sort of heat, would it be the MOTY? That's just an honest question, and I don't intend for it to be pointed at all.

 

I've seen the triple threat about 15-20 times- I never tire of it. I pretty much have the match memorised.

 

The table spot has a purpose though. HBK and HHH spend the whole match trying to get at each other but Benoit constantly gets in the way so they decide to team up for one second and put him through a table.

 

I have a problem with this as the story of the match, because HHH and HBK don't take Benoit as seriously as they should. I can understand HBK considering Benoit a nuisance, and I can understand HHH hating HBK a little more because they had a long feud, but the part of the puzzle that bothers me more than anything is HHH treating Benoit like a nuisance. Benoit getting the win in the rematch in Canada the following month cemented the original match as not a fluke, but a flaw in the storyline headed into the Mania match was the treatment of Benoit as a third wheel. That manifested itself in the body of the match.

 

This also creates perfect drama when HHH pedigrees HBK and everyone assumes Benoit is dead. Watching MSG beg and plead with Benoit to get up is great.

 

I totally agree. It's one of the best parts of the match.

[Guest Loss]

he addressed that stuff though, Bob...he's looking for something OTHER than phsycology that sets this match apart from others...there are tons of shitty matches that are so covered by physcology and how the crowd reacts etc. that we don't notice the matches with actual workrate...

No, actually, I'm looking FOR psychology. Workrate is a term I don't really care about one way or the other. My point was that the crowd was not responding to the in-ring work, but rather that the crowd was responding to the idea of someone new on top. There was little done in the match layout itself, aside from the finish, that contributed to that atmosphere. The crowd had made up their minds before the match even started that they wanted Benoit to win, and that was just because they were sick of the other two.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"i cant call that moty because i dont even remember it that well"

 

I don't remember much about my 5th birthday but my parents tell me I had a great time. Re-watch the match. I thought AJPW sucked when I first started watching it but then I finally understood it.

 

"...except for the blood. to me, that match, which I DID NOT want to see, and which had such a bad finish"

 

What was bad about the finish?

 

"had to make up for that by being clearly better than the other candidates to be moty. The title match from mania, which had mega heat, benoit winning the title, was much better and had the right finish."

 

If mega heat involves the crowd dying mid way through the match, then yes, it did have mega heat. Benoit won the title in WCW as well against, of all people, Sid. And that match is better than the WM XX Main Event. There are a few decent qualities to the WM XX Main Event but I don't know if I would call it more than good.

 

To quote my buddy Phil Schenider:

 

"You could have stuck any shitty match on the front of that finish and gotten the same pop, and they basically did. All the Shaun v. HHH stuff was terrible, and it was a moment not a match. Beniot v. Sid when Beniot wins WCW title smokes this."

 

Tim

[Tim Cooke 0]

"I have a problem with this as the story of the match, because HHH and HBK don't take Benoit as seriously as they should."

 

Ding Ding Ding - winner!

 

Of course, I have read people give detailed analysis of how this did happen, when it obviously didn't.

 

Tim

[SuperJerk 0]

That's because in a good match, the action builds towards a finish. In a match with a DQ, there is no actual finish. Rather, the match is ended abruptly by the referee because of a rules violation. Thus a major component of the match is missing.

 

Ahhh, but you contradict yourself here. A DQ is a finish, and there are many examples of matches that build to a DQ rather than a clean pinfall, and do so well. Austin/Angle, Austin/HBK, Taker/HBK from Ground Zero, these are all very good matches where the internal story and progress of the match led to the disqualification.

I've seen very few matches where it builds towards a DQ. Angle/Austin from Summerslam 2001 is the best example of it doing this well, but it still felt cheap to end it that way, in my opinion.

 

The only reason to set up a DQ finish to to set up a rematch for later on. This built-in "leave them wanting more" mentality is fine for a TV match or a house show, but on a PPV doesn't work. Fortunately in the case of Angle/Austin, it wasn't the main event, and you did have a rematch the next month.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I've only seen parts of Eddie vs JBL. I must say the matches didn't look too bad from what I've seen but I just couldn't get myself into them even though I'm a big Eddie fan. A lot of that is due to my not being interested about JBL.

 

My WWE MOTY from what I've seen is still Benoit vs Michaels Showdown in the Desert. Almost a 4 star match and it certainly could've been if it weren't for two commercial breaks and a somewhat cut short ending by HHH. Benoit vs Orton from Raw and Benoit vs Kane from Raw I also have as being close.

 

 

Now about the triple threat. It feels a little weird to defend a match that I'm really not that crazy about at all but the notion that it didn't matter what they did in there - the crowd would've popped regardless is not totally accurate. Yes, they would've still popped if no wrestler really did anything for 20 minutes and than Benoit won at the end. But the final stretch of the match from the point where Benoit is thrown into the table is well done and designed to increase the crowd's pop. After the table spot HHH and Michaels put the spotlight on themselves but I have no problem with that as it also helps out Benoit. From right there on the match is designed to give the fans a rollercoaster ride of emotions. Basically from "Yes, yes, yes to no, no, no" several times over. If the match was just random you wouldn't get that.

 

They did a nice job of using anticipation here with the rollercoaster effect. Spots such as Benoit breaking HHH's pinfall after being laid out on the table, Michaels superkicking Benoit in the face while he has HHH in the sharpshooter, Michaels getting ready to superkick Benoit, HHH right afterwards from behind getting ready to pedigree Benoit, (something he likes to do and which Benjamin fell for just rescently on Raw) HHH making it look like he was really going to hit the pedigree as Benoit reverses it later than you would normally expect and of course the crossface spot at the end. All designed at the time for the fans to cheer for Benoit and finally have an orgasm at the end. For us to go "Screw you" to HHH/Michaels to losing our voices cheering for Benoit multiple times over which as I'm sure anyone who watched this match live with anyone else would attest to. Yes, the fans would've popped at the end nontheless but the key here is it wouldn't have been as big if Benoit/HHH/Michaels didn't do what they did. We as the fans were supposed to pop like mad when Benoit won. They just helped us pop all the more.

 

Now as for the rest of the match. I thought it was good but nothing to write home about. There was a nice fighting of moves throughout which I really liked which was a slick touch. The triple threat curse reared its ugly head where one guy magically has to stay down for awhile but they managed not to make it too bad here.

 

Forgot about this -- Ending was a nice touch where Benoit elimanates Michaels Royal Rumble style to finally get the match the way it was "supposed" to be in the first place. One on one.

 

Personally, I'd give it 3 1/2.

 

 

 

Eh, I think I'll rant on some more. Some matches have advantages over others from the get go such as the triple threat or Hokuto vs Kandori from Dreamslam. And that is that. They take the current situation that they're in and what happened in the past and work on that. Your typical midcard or even a lot of highprofile matches do not have the same advantage as that. In this case, the triple threat used emotion that is not prevalent in a lot of other matches to its advantage. That emotion was at a very feverish high peak here -- for a lot of people its highest ever. However high you regard this emotion will dicatate how great a match this is for you.

[Precious Roy 0]

That's because in a good match, the action builds towards a finish. In a match with a DQ, there is no actual finish. Rather, the match is ended abruptly by the referee because of a rules violation. Thus a major component of the match is missing.

 

Ahhh, but you contradict yourself here. A DQ is a finish, and there are many examples of matches that build to a DQ rather than a clean pinfall, and do so well. Austin/Angle, Austin/HBK, Taker/HBK from Ground Zero, these are all very good matches where the internal story and progress of the match led to the disqualification.

I've seen very few matches where it builds towards a DQ. Angle/Austin from Summerslam 2001 is the best example of it doing this well, but it still felt cheap to end it that way, in my opinion.

 

The only reason to set up a DQ finish to to set up a rematch for later on. This built-in "leave them wanting more" mentality is fine for a TV match or a house show, but on a PPV doesn't work. Fortunately in the case of Angle/Austin, it wasn't the main event, and you did have a rematch the next month.

Not all PPVS can deliver finality, and I wouldn't want them to, things get boring when you stick with the same formula. The HBK/Undertaker match from Ground Zero may be my favorite "forgotten" main-event, I had so much fun watching that match, was so into it, and the match ending in a double DQ was so perfectly done and left me pumped up and wanting to see these guys go at it again. And of course it built up to the first Hell In A Cell, so what's to complain about? I'm just saying that it can be done and done well with the right circumstances.

 

I have a problem with this as the story of the match, because HHH and HBK don't take Benoit as seriously as they should. I can understand HBK considering Benoit a nuisance, and I can understand HHH hating HBK a little more because they had a long feud, but the part of the puzzle that bothers me more than anything is HHH treating Benoit like a nuisance. Benoit getting the win in the rematch in Canada the following month cemented the original match as not a fluke, but a flaw in the storyline headed into the Mania match was the treatment of Benoit as a third wheel.

 

Well, it's HHH and HBK we're talking about, explain WHY we should expect them to take Benoit seriously in the build up? To them he's a vanilla midget. That WAS the story of the buildup and the match, that those two viewed Benoit as a third wheel. So you're basically just complaining that you didn't get the story you wanted rather than pointing out flaws in their storytelling, because they really put over the idea of Benoit being an outsider and a "nuisance" perfectly throughout the match, and that was the part of the storyline that was meant to legitimize Benoit, the fact that he forced them to respect him in the ring. It wasn't a flaw in the storyline, it WAS the storyline.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Well, if that is the explanation of the story, sublte burying commences~~!!

 

Tim

[Guest Contentious C]

No match with a DQ or run-in finish deserves to be considered MOTY.  Period.

Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind, Mind Games 1996. Ended in a DQ and was MOTY for some.

Who didn't watch anything anywhere else in the entire world (including WCW), that is.

[pochorenella 0]

Sorry, never mind this post.

[Guest Contentious C]

I have a problem with this as the story of the match, because HHH and HBK don't take Benoit as seriously as they should. I can understand HBK considering Benoit a nuisance, and I can understand HHH hating HBK a little more because they had a long feud, but the part of the puzzle that bothers me more than anything is HHH treating Benoit like a nuisance. Benoit getting the win in the rematch in Canada the following month cemented the original match as not a fluke, but a flaw in the storyline headed into the Mania match was the treatment of Benoit as a third wheel. That manifested itself in the body of the match.

I'd hardly call it a flaw that they chose to take that direction. It just didn't help matters one bit that HHH & HBK had killed their feud dead over the course of the previous 17 months. Go back to Survivor Series 02, where Shawn wins the belt in a shit match, and you'll hear MSG go absolutely insane for his win. It's as big a pop as the one Benoit got. If they'd shipped Benoit over to Raw after the Royal Rumble loss to Angle and put him in a triple threat with those two, the crowd probably wouldn't have shit all over HHH vs. HBK. Then again, Benoit was injected into the match this year largely because HHH vs. HBK was so fucking dead.

 

However, their treatment of him as the third wheel is what you'd expect - if it were Rock vs. Austin vs. Benoit, they would have done it. If it were Hart vs. HBK vs. Benoit, they would have done it. Benoit is the guy who hasn't main-evented Wrestlemania, who hasn't won a World Title, who hasn't ever made either of them submit in a match that had something riding on it. Until that night, he is the third wheel, and he beats them anyway.

 

If anything, I'd say their inability to take Benoit seriously, which contributes in part to his win, is the one piece of the story that actually works on some level. HBK is supposed to be the guy with all the "heart," but Benoit trumps him. HHH is supposed to be the thinking man's wrestler who has everything under control, but Benoit is just too strong. If anything, it's a sign of how pedestrian and by-the-numbers much of the match was that HHH & HBK couldn't get a reaction other than fuck-you heat even when they had a gimme of a story going for them.

[bob_barron 0]

Regarding HBK's pop after he won the title at Survivor Series- RVD or Booker would've recieved just as big a pop if they won. A lot of the males were very vocal against HBK that night- my section was chanting for Triple H.

 

I think during the match: HBK regards Benoit as the nuisance trying to steal his thunder while HHH just wants to win his title and will do whatever he can to retain. Beating HBK is just icing on the cake

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

It'd be like having really great sex, but not climaxing. Sure, it was fun while it lasted, but you feel disappointed afterwards.

No, it's not fucking like that all.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

[SuperJerk 0]

It'd be like having really great sex, but not climaxing.  Sure, it was fun while it lasted, but you feel disappointed afterwards.

No, it's not fucking like that all.

Thanks for fucking elaborating I why you didn't fucking agree on my fucking analogy.

[Dandy 0]

No match with a DQ or run-in finish deserves to be considered MOTY.  Period.

This is bullshit. Of course, a clean finish is always preferred, but think about the best match you've ever seen and imagine it ending in a DQ. Would you then say the match sucked and that none of the good work prior to the finish was any good?

Although I don't think a DQ/run-in necessarily makes a match automatically bad, the ending can definitely bring down the match single-handedly. It can make a great match mediocre. For an analogy, here is something I posted in the WMXX thread regarding the finish of a match.

 

For an analogy of how important an ending is, consider the movie Se7en. Say the movie went as it was up until the desert scene and the van is coming down. Somerset (Morgan Freeman) runs over and gets the box from the delivery guy. He looks into the box and says, "What the fuck?" Mills (Brad Pitt) asks John Doe (Kevin Spacey) what's in the box. Doe: "Well, yesterday I killed my neighbor and his plumber. That's what's in the box." They take him back to headquarters, he signed his confession and was sentenced to life without parole.

 

Not nearly as good a movie, huh?

 

Edited because the last line was left off the quote.