Hogan and Rock possibly teaming at WM?

[Guest LooneyTune]

Damn it I was gonna make a thread about this....

 

the title being

 

"Wait thats not New Jack its Hulk Hogan!:

 

Subtitle

IWC always confuse them for some reason...

YOU ARE SO FUNNY!

Unless you were being serious, I don't get the joke about New Jack and Hogan.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Yeah, I can't remember a single Rock/Booker segment from 2003, yet everyone remembers the 'Cane stuff, which tells you how much of a rub he gave Booker...

Are you ignoring the part BECAUSE TRIPLE H WILL JUST SQUASH HIM IN THE LONG RUN, LIKE HE DID TO THE HURRICANE THE WEEK AFTER WRESTLEMANIA (I did a check on the result in my tape lists).

[Precious Roy 0]

Yeah, I can't remember a single Rock/Booker segment from 2003, yet everyone remembers the 'Cane stuff, which tells you how much of a rub he gave Booker...

Are you ignoring the part BECAUSE TRIPLE H WILL JUST SQUASH HIM IN THE LONG RUN, LIKE HE DID TO THE HURRICANE THE WEEK AFTER WRESTLEMANIA (I did a check on the result in my tape lists).

No, I'm not ignoring it, but it doesn't change the fact that Rock never gave him a rub, LIKE A PREVIOUS POSTER SAYS HE DID. Good intentions don't mean shit if nothing comes of them.

[iliketurtles 0]

Yeah, I can't remember a single Rock/Booker segment from 2003, yet everyone remembers the 'Cane stuff, which tells you how much of a rub he gave Booker...

Are you ignoring the part BECAUSE TRIPLE H WILL JUST SQUASH HIM IN THE LONG RUN, LIKE HE DID TO THE HURRICANE THE WEEK AFTER WRESTLEMANIA (I did a check on the result in my tape lists).

And Jericho. Rock's still bitter that all his work with Jericho was put to shit after HHH went through him at Mania 18.

 

I have a big theory posted related to this in General Wrestling...it's in the "Stuff you didn't know about the WWF" thread.

[jester 0]

Disclosure: while I recognize Hogan's huge impact on the business, I hate every last single thing about him. I have never liked him.

 

So, I admit I am a wee bit biased on this point. But I honestly think Hogan will only do more harm in the long run if brought back.

 

"But if he is used correctly..."

 

And that's just it. He WON'T be used correctly. Maybe for the first few matches, then he'll want to get his jobs back, go over top talent and start wanted title runs.

 

While part of me takes a sadistic glee in the thought of Orton legend-killing Hogan (who has been killed two or three times like every other legend Orton has "killed"), there is NO WAY IN HELL that Hogan is going to put over the son of Piper's personal slave without the promise of something big in return.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I AM POSTING IN CAPS AND BOLD LETTERING!

 

- Brick Tamrudo

[Nighthawk 0]

Fuck all that, if there was a Hogan vs New Jack match I'd never watch anything besides wrestling again.

[Guest LooneyTune]

I AM POSTING IN CAPS AND BOLD LETTERING!

 

- Brick Tamrudo

Something has to get the point across after it's no sold the first time. At least it wasn't filled with "U instead you, 2 instead of /to/too, 4 instead of for, NE instead of any" and other forms of slaughtered english.

[Precious Roy 0]

What point? Jesus some people are dense.

[Guest LooneyTune]

That it doesn't matter (no pun intended, seriously) if Rock put him over or not. Rock did the SMART thing by refusing to put over Booker T where he knew the guy was going to get screwed over weeks later by Hunter.

 

If he did, Triple H wouldn't have made Booker look like shit, but Rock look like shit too because Booker would've gotten a rub from him and makes Rock look weaker. Triple H is jealous of Rocky, and it's been well documented. Have we already forgotten Hunter anal-raping all of Jerichos heat and credibility right after Rock put him over numerous times?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Am I so negative and hostile that everything I write is taken as criticism, rather than an opportunistic joke?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... AWESOME.

[Precious Roy 0]

These forums are FUBAR!

Edited January 13, 2005 by Precious Roy

[Precious Roy 0]

That it doesn't matter (no pun intended, seriously) if Rock put him over or not. Rock did the SMART thing by refusing to put over Booker T where he knew the guy was going to get screwed over weeks later by Hunter.

 

I'm not disputing any of that. He did the smart thing in maintaining him image. I'm merely saying that whoever made the original comment about Rock giving Booker a rub, based on an intended match that never happened, has no clue what he's talking about. If it didn't happen there is no rub involved, no matter what Rock wanted to happen or what might have happened. We're dealing with reality here, and in reality The Rock had a major hand in burying Booker during the Invasion, and stepped aside to let Hunter finish the job rather than risk his own neck in making the guy look good.

 

If Rock were so fucking concerned with getting people over he'd stick around for a while rather than do spot shows which leave the guys he works with to the mercy of the bookers and the ~EVIL~ HHH. Rock's generosity, while somewhat admirable, is pretty overblown. He shows up to promote his movies and make sure rasslin fans still like him enough to go see them, and he trys to do a little good by the performers he likes. He can't make or break guys unless he's around for more than a couple dates a year, and if he really cared about putting people over he'd set aside a couple months a year to work TV and do shit that matters rather than throwaway segments.

 

And before anyone makes the comment, I have zero problem with what he does and the fact that he's in pictures now, more power to him, just don't try and make him out as a benevelent saint while demonizing HHH in the process, because it's not accurate, and I don't like how HHH conducts his business either.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Oh shit, I didn't notice the comment about Rock putting Booker over. He didn't. Well I feel like a dickhead...

 

At Summerslam 2001, anyone else find it a little wrong for Rocky to absolutely no sell the Book-End? Then pin Booker T at Unforgiven despite Shane McMahon being an official participant too?

 

At least Hunter pinned Stephanie when he fought her and Jericho in a match.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Hogan vs Hassan.

 

You know it has to happen.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Disclosure: while I recognize Hogan's huge impact on the business, I hate every last single thing about him. I have never liked him.

 

So, I admit I am a wee bit biased on this point. But I honestly think Hogan will only do more harm in the long run if brought back.

 

"But if he is used correctly..."

 

And that's just it. He WON'T be used correctly. Maybe for the first few matches, then he'll want to get his jobs back, go over top talent and start wanted title runs.

Yes that is exactly what happened in spring 2002 and 2003.

 

Wait; no it's not.

 

2002; he comes in and works the nwo angle leading to the major Mania match with Rock. He put Rock over despite 90% of one of the greatest and most rabid crowds in modern day wrestling being on his side. Got the title not because he wanted it but because Vince mistook the reactions as a sign that people wanted the title on him and thus ratings tanked. He jobbed out the title to Undertaker while looking his bitch the whole time(remember getting dragged on the bike?). Tapped out to Kurt angle @ KOTR which was his first straight clean tap out as a face; moved down to the tag ranks and gave Edge a rub and then put over Storm and Christian a little on the house shows. Made Brock Lesnar look like a star monster by completeing allowing brock to decimate him. Left to protect Brock's impact and the angle and also to perserve his overness and not overstay his welcome; a practice he was brilliantly talented at over the course of his career.

 

Came back early 2003 and worked a program with Vince that was wrongly given more hype then the other big 3 main events (Booker/HHH, Angle/Lesnar and Shawn/Jericho) but in hindsight Booker/HHH was an atrocious angle, Angle/Lesnar never delivered as expected though it was expected due to injury to angle, and the Jericho/Shawn match while good was a political fiasco). Hogan and Vince had a entertaining mark match. Hogan remained out the title scene and continued to feud with McMahon primarily and was booked in the silly Mr. America gimmick; proving Hogan wasn't exactly in charge of his creative control here. He did the Gowan connection that still ranks as one of the lowest points in WWE history creatively and ethically. Hogan was still over as Mr. America but left not due to politics but merely money issues.

 

Hogan in his last two runs with wwe; put over numerous people and rubbed a good # of people; didn't play ANY significant politics nor cause trouble; brought a raise in merch sales.

 

Hogan was used almost perfectly in 2002 and ruined in 2003; so if he would to come back for another 3 month stay; do a major Mania match and put over a couple other young "stars" like Hassan or JBL or Orton or Benjamin...He's proven his worth yet again.

[Guest LooneyTune]

This can be taken in two directions: Vince wanted Hogan to come back for Survivor Series (2002) to work a program with Brock. Hogan wanted to win his return match, which was obviously responded with a "no". Because of this, they put off Hogans return until after the Rumble.

 

Hogans POV: His last match he is obliterated by Brock. Why come back and do the exact same thing? It won't make Brock look any better than he already was (the win was 100000000% clean, and not a fluke), and hurts Hogan.

 

Anyone else against it: Hogan wants his job back.

 

Hogan's POV is much better I think. Why bring him back only to job again to a guy he's already put over clean? I think Hogan/Brock at WM XIX would've been smarter. Why? A. Hogan is not near crippled like Angle in the health department. B. Brock and Angle just didn't gel well in any of their matches. C. Brock going over a legend who isn't a shell of his former self = not a bad move.

 

Have Hogan win the title at Survivor Series, then job the title clean again at WM. Since Brock did the job to the BIG SHOW, how was it not a good idea to let Hogan win?

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Angle wasn't a near cripple at the time they went with Angle/Lesnar.

 

Brock did the job because he was injured and they weren't certain of the severity of it.

 

That wasn't Hogan refusing to do a job; that was Hogan having a rare case of logic.

 

Also; Hogan with a title was a complete bust in mid 2002; why would they possibly want to put the title on Hogan again after that.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Angle WASN'T near crippled? the guy shouldn't have been in a wrestling ring and was risking permanent health (look at the poor bastards arms! They are grotesque!). Brock's injury couldn't have been too severe, considering he was physically active in almost every episode of Smackdown after losing the title IIRC.

 

The other part I agree with, which was the point of the whore story. (I really need to learn how to condence my points and plan them out better).

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

He reached near cripple status after they decided to go with Lesnar/Angle.

 

It was too late by that point really to change the line up but I bet if Angle didn't want to do it...yes; they would have done Lesnar/Hogan because Hogan could easily have stepped in for that spot even though it would be face/face.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Brock didn't really turn face until midway through the Survivor Series feud with Big Show, so in the long run, Brock could've remained a heel. He's an easy character to hate (cocky monster who walks all over everyone).

[Guest Fook_Theta]

He's an easy character to hate (cocky monster who walks all over everyone).

Someone is stuck in 1976. You just described Batista, whom is quite over due to be a slightly pissed off cocky heel against another heel.

 

But yeah, Lesnar vs Hogan or someone else would have been fine if Angle really wanted it.

[Guest LooneyTune]

I grew up on hosses, so I'm kinda stuck on that. I refuse to boo heels like Kurt Angle because he's too much of a dork with whatever he does. Serious Angle rarely comes out, and when it does, you still laugh at his stupid shit. Heels should be monsters... Oh great, I'm probably bugged by WWE as the sole representative of the United States for ideas.

[Precious Roy 0]

I can see Hogan's POV in regards to returning and jobbing to Lesnar for a second time, but realistically there's no way he should have gone over him at Survivor Series, so yes, despite playing nice initially it was selfish of him to demand that.

 

There were ways to work around it in the booking and keep Hogan strong, a strong build-up for Hogan leading to the Series and a competitive match, more competative than the SD match, with Lesnar having to work dirty to win, but that was the selfish Hogan rearing his head there, because he could have got the program tailored to keep him strong, he just couldn't stomache two straight jobs without him pinning Lesnar. At the most they could have done a fluke type pin for Hogan in a SD tag match that heavily protected Lesnar leading to the match.

 

IMO though, Hogan was pretty broken down at that point, and I had trouble suspending disbelief during Hogan's offense in the SD match as Lesnar just looked and was worlds stronger than Hogan. Realistically Lesnar should have been mopping the floor with him every chance he got, he was the most physically impressive guy the E had, maybe the most impressive guy they've ever had.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

The fifteen greatest heels in modern wrestling (last 20 years)

 

In No Order

Ted Dibiase

Ric Flair

Vince McMahon

Raven

The Rock

Chris Jericho

Randy Savage

Hollywood Hogan

Bret Hart

Ravishing Rick Rude

Curt Hening

Shawn Michaels

Roddy Piper

Vader

Andre the Giant

Shane Douglas

 

So I don't get where create this "All heels must be monsters"; where right there 13 of 15 aren't anything close to "monsters".

[Guest LooneyTune]

That's an unofficial list. Maybe someone thinks Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, Kamala, Andre The Giant, One Man Gang, Big Van Vader and Abdullah The Butcher are some of the best heels. (Of course, half of them sucked IMO, but just saying)

 

Bret Hart was not a great heel. Anti-American... technically he was also a babyface too, wasn't he? In Canada he was Face #1. Rick Rude sucked, and I never saw anything good about him. Shane Douglas was a crybaby heel, what a great character. He's an after thought in every topic.

 

Curt Hennig was a good wrestler, but not a memorable heel to me. Chris Jericho is way too liked for a heel. You're suppose to hate a heel, not cheer for him. Same for the Rock. Randy Savage is questionable, depending on which heel run you are reffering to.

 

That leaves Ric Flair (definitely), Raven (cult following, no big deal), Roddy Piper (definitely), Shawn Michaels (nowhere near the top of the list, but better than a face HBK), Ted Dibiase (only for a couple of years), and Vince McMahon (evil owner and his best stuff was only in 1998).

 

I could point out flaws in almost every heel, so thats why it's an unofficial.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Watch anything Rude did in WCW 1991-1994. Amazing work in and out of the ring.

 

Jericho was a cult fan amongst the net' he was DESPISED as much as Hogan was in 1998. He managed to get the crowd behind one of the most boring and dry personalities in wrestling history; Dean Melenko)

 

Rock was majorly hated in 'Corporate Champ mode.

 

actually; I neglected to put Sarge on the list. He was a great heel if only for the wrong reasons. He wasn't a monster either.

 

and Arn Anderson too.

 

Don't forget HHH either.

[Precious Roy 0]

Well, I loved and cheered for Vader and Andre as heels, so doesn't that make them failures? It's all subjective, all that matters is that you were entertained.

[jester 0]

Yes that is exactly what happened in spring 2002 and 2003.

Wait; no it's not.

 

Actually, what you go on to describe is extactly what I am complaining about.

 

Left to protect Brock's impact and the angle and also to perserve his overness and not overstay his welcome; a practice he was brilliantly talented at over the course of his career.

 

That's not to protect the business or Brock, that's to protect Hogan. And rumour has it that he wanted the program to continue and get his job back.

 

 

Came back early 2003 and worked a program with Vince that was wrongly given more hype then the other big 3 main events

 

Again, this is exactly my point. This match would have been fine if it hadn't been sold as THE reason to watch Mania. But it was. Any match Hogan comes back for will be promoted as THE MOST IMPORTANT MATCH EVER, even if it's Hogan vs Scotty 2 Hotty.

 

Because.

Hogan.

Will.

Not.

Be.

Used.

Correctly.

 

It's not necessarily entirely his fault. Part of it is Vince.

 

Hogan was used almost perfectly in 2002 and ruined in 2003; so if he would to come back for another 3 month stay; do a major Mania match and put over a couple other young "stars" like Hassan or JBL or Orton or Benjamin...He's proven his worth yet again.

 

Hogan won't come back to job for any of those guys. Not without major money offered, or the promise of a return job in the future.

 

And does anyone have numbers to prove that Hogan significantly put up buyrates? I've heard that claimed but I have never seen it verified.

 

Not that it ultimately matters to me. I still hate the orange windbag and don't care if he tripled buyrates.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Why argue? You are clearly bias. I could throw you figures about house show attendance, merchandise sales, buyrates during Hogans prime and you'll still blow a raspeberry at it.