USS JIMMY CARTER Commissioned

[Ted the Poster 0]

"Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!"

 

"He's got huge, sharp - eh - he can leap about - look at the bones!"

[Guest MikeSC]

He lied and grossly exaggerated about what was going on in Vietnam and his own words / testimony were used as propaganda by the VietCong.

He didn't lie.

 

http://factcheck.org/article244.html

 

And since Kerry testified, ample evidence of other atrocities has come to light:

 

Son Thang: In 1998, for example, Marine Corps veteran Gary D. Solis published the book Son Thang: An American War Crime describing the court-martial of four US Marines for the apparently unprovoked killing 16 women and children on the night of February 19, 1970 in a hamlet about 20 miles south of Danang. The four Marines testified that they were under orders by their patrol leader to shoot the villagers. A young Oliver North appeared as a character witness and helped acquit the leader of all charges, but three were convicted.

Tiger Force:  The Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a series published in October, 2003 reporting that atrocities were committed by an elite US Army "Tiger Force" unit that the Blade said killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage in 1967. "Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings," the Blade reported. "Investigators concluded that 18 soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. But no one was charged."

"Hundreds" of others: In December 2003 The New York Times quoted  Nicholas Turse, a doctoral candidate at Columbia University who has been studying government archives, as saying the records are filled with accounts of atrocities similar to those described by the Toledo Blade series. "I stumbled across the incidents The Blade reported," Turse was quoted as saying. "I read through that case a year, year and a half ago, and it really didn't stand out. There was nothing that made it stand out from anything else. That's the scary thing. It was just one of hundreds."

"Exact Same Stories": Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on Vietnam, says he's heard many veterans describe atrocities just like those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told FactCheck.org that since 1978 he's interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. "I have heard the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over," he said. "Wars produce atrocities.  Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a particularly horrific number of atrocities.  That some individual soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam shouldn't really surprise anyone."

 

The fact that his words were used as Viet Cong propaganda wasn't his fault.

Such a shame that the Winter Soldier "Investigations", that Kerry was so tight with, were so laden with people who had not been anywhere near Vietnam, ain't it?

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Such a shame that the Winter Soldier "Investigations", that Kerry was so tight with, were so laden with people who had not been anywhere near Vietnam, ain't it?

      -=Mike

And yet no testimony has ever been successfully refuted. How odd.

[SuperJerk 0]

Such a shame that the Winter Soldier "Investigations", that Kerry was so tight with, were so laden with people who had not been anywhere near Vietnam, ain't it?

It says in the article:

 

Kerry critics have long disputed that atrocities by US forces were as prevalent as Kerry suggested. And at least some of the testimony at the  "Winter Soldier" event was called into question by historian Guenter Lewy in a 1978 book, America in Vietnam. Lewy noted that the event had been staged with financial help from Jane Fonda. He stated that many of the Winter Soldier participants later refused to speak to investigators for the Naval Investigative Service even though they were assured that they wouldn't be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally.

 

Kerry's critics point to that as evidence that he was irresponsibly passing on false atrocity stories. However, there's  no question that events such as Kerry described did happen, as Lewy himself stated:

 

Lewy: Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated.

 

credit:

http://factcheck.org/article244.html

[Guest MikeSC]

We ALSO know that they were not common occurrences and that the stories Kerry was reporting to Congress WERE lies, since the people he BASED the stories on were not real vets.

And yet no testimony has ever been successfully refuted. How odd.

Hard to refute vague generalities.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

We ALSO know that they were not common occurrences and that the stories Kerry was reporting to Congress WERE lies, since the people he BASED the stories on were not real vets.

And yet no testimony has ever been successfully refuted. How odd.

Hard to refute vague generalities.

-=Mike

Depends on what you mean by "common occurences".

 

Hey, I wasn't there either, so I only go by what I've read/seen in documentaries.

 

 

As far as the Winter Soldier stuff goes, if someone lies to you, but you think its true and you repeat it, does that make you a liar?

[Guest MikeSC]

We ALSO know that they were not common occurrences and that the stories Kerry was reporting to Congress WERE lies, since the people he BASED the stories on were not real vets.

And yet no testimony has ever been successfully refuted. How odd.

Hard to refute vague generalities.

-=Mike

Depends on what you mean by "common occurences".

 

Hey, I wasn't there either, so I only go by what I've read/seen in documentaries.

 

 

As far as the Winter Soldier stuff goes, if someone lies to you, but you think its true and you repeat it, does that make you a liar?

If you vouch for its authenticity and NEVER apologize for spreading lies for over 30 years --- then, yeah, it makes you a liar.

 

If they were "common occurences", My Lai wouldn't have been a big deal. It'd have been the norm.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

If they were "common occurences", My Lai wouldn't have been a big deal. It'd have been the norm.

-=Mike

You're... Just not going to acknowledge the pure amount of cover-up work that went into Vietnam, are you?

[Guest MikeSC]

If they were "common occurences", My Lai wouldn't have been a big deal. It'd have been the norm.

      -=Mike

You're... Just not going to acknowledge the pure amount of cover-up work that went into Vietnam, are you?

Funny that the gov't is rather inept at covering up things --- well, apparently except for Vietnam, where they had reporters all over the place.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

If you vouch for its authenticity and NEVER apologize for spreading lies for over 30 years --- then, yeah, it makes you a liar.

 

First of all, he wasn't out there for 30 years repeating the Winter Soldier stories.

 

Secondly, based on my own research, I'm not certain the Winter Soldier stories have actually been discredited, which seems to be a central part of your argument.

 

The scope of the atrocities committed by American soldiers is generally believed by historians to be greater than you're letting on. I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain, but neither were you. For you to say that Kerry is lying requires a leap of faith on your part I'm not willing to take, since many of the instances Kerry spoke of have documented proof behind them.

[Guest Brian]

It took almost a year for Time to even figure out about My Lai. Despite there being "reporters all over the place", and despite it occuring at the height of protest. Other things could have slipped under the radar.

[Guest MikeSC]

If you vouch for its authenticity and NEVER apologize for spreading lies for over 30 years --- then, yeah, it makes you a liar.

 

First of all, he wasn't out there for 30 years repeating the Winter Soldier stories.

He made his NAME off those hearings. And he never once backed away for any of his allegations when the reality of the Winter Soldier Investigations started coming out.

Secondly, based on my own research, I'm not certain the Winter Soldier stories have actually been discredited, which seems to be a central part of your argument.

NOBODY can prove that even HALF of them were ever in Vietnam. The Navy tried to investigate and most of the participants refused to be interviewed to verify that they actually served in the military for one day. Nobody has managed to CORROBORATE these stories.

 

This doesn't exactly reek of a honest and truthful account told by vets.

The scope of the atrocities committed by American soldiers is generally believed by historians to be greater than you're letting on. 

Can you show me a historian who compares us in Vietnam to the reign of Genghis Khan?

I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain, but neither were you.

Kerry is the one who voiced the accusations without apparently actually checking to see if the vets were ACTUAL vets.

 

And perhaps, someday, somebody can explain Kerry's CURRENT rendition of his Cambodia story --- because, last time I checked, we NEVER gave arms to the Khmer Rouge. Seems a bit idiotic for us to give arms to a Communist regime we opposed to topple a regime we marginally supported.

For you to say that Kerry is lying requires a leap of faith on your part I'm not willing to take, since many of the instances Kerry spoke of have documented proof behind them.

WHERE?

 

Where are the heads and limbs being lopped off? The electrodes attached to genitals?

 

Where is this crap?

It took almost a year for Time to even figure out about My Lai. Despite there being "reporters all over the place", and despite it occuring at the height of protest. Other things could have slipped under the radar.

For over 30 years?

 

This is the government. Bush has the "most secretive White House ever" --- and he can't stop leaks. You're telling me the Pentagon, which has never managed to quash a leak in its existence, did so in this war ONLY?

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

You're basing your opinion that those things never happened entirely on refusals to testify.

 

There are plenty of others who have come forward over the years with stories of those type of acts to lead me to believe things like that did happen.

 

You're talking about a group of men who were forced into the military against their will (drafted), treated like subhuman objects during training, encouraged to be as aggresive as possible, conditioned them to think in terms of "kill or be killed", told look at everyone they met over there in those terms, fed lies that they were fighting for freedom and democracy, and then thrown them into the thick of a war and told "KILL! KILL! KILL!" by their commanders. Given those conditions, the types of atrocities described by many, many sources is to be expected. That's not to say that everyone one, or even the majority of, soldiers serving in Vietnam did those types of things. However, the idea that those occurences were widespread should be expected.

 

Interview with the author of The New Winter Soldiers:

http://hnn.us/articles/6811.html

[Guest MikeSC]

You're basing your opinion that those things never happened entirely on refusals to testify.

I'm stating that nobody can actually verify that these men who "testified" were ever IN Vietnam. That, automatically, makes their "testimony" incredibly questionable.

There are plenty of others who have come forward over the years with stories of those type of acts to lead me to believe things like that did happen.

Who's saying crimes didn't happen?

 

Kerry was arguing that they were REGULAR occurences, which they were not. Not even close. And the SBVT were pissed that he said that about them, which he did.

You're talking about a group of men who were forced into the military against their will (drafted), treated like subhuman objects during training, encouraged to be as aggresive as possible, conditioned them to think in terms of "kill or be killed", told look at everyone they met over there in those terms, fed lies that they were fighting for freedom and democracy, and then thrown them into the thick of a war and told "KILL! KILL! KILL!" by their commanders.

And I'm saying that we can't even say that these "vets" were actually vets. The reasons you mention is why the draft is exceptionally unlikely to occur in our lifetimes (no matter what was claimed about Bush's plans during the election).

Given those conditions, the types of atrocities described by many, many sources is to be expected.  That's not to say that everyone one, or even the majority of, soldiers serving in Vietnam did those types of things.  However, the idea that those occurences were widespread should be expected.

But the evidence does not back up the idea.

 

Yes, it happened occasionally. No, it is not proven that it was common.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

So we're actually arguing over frequency?

 

 

Even *if* there was a way of measuring this in exact terms, I doubt the documentation exists to prove anyone correct.

[Guest MikeSC]

So we're actually arguing over frequency?

 

 

Even *if* there was a way of measuring this in exact terms, I doubt the documentation exists to prove anyone correct.

Nobody is arguing that no atrocities occurred. Just that precious few occurred.

-=Mike