Hogan/Warrior

[BUTT 0]

I just watched Hogan/Warrior from WM6 again and I must say, this match was not very good. Why is it praised so much? Is it just due to the memories fans have of the excitement over the "Ultimate Challenge". To me, I saw that the match was comprised mainly of three things:

 

1) Stalling

2) Restholds

3) Really weak punching and brawling sequences

 

I also thought the finish looked really lame, because Hogan was sitting up after he missed the legdrop and then he seemed to lie down for the Warrior splash, which connected VERY softly but still put Hogan down for three. I think they could have come up with a better finish than that.

 

So why do people like it? I know it had the huge crowd and "big match atmosphere", but that doesn't make a match great, in my opinion. Sure the match had a lot of drama, but that only really works when you're seeing it as it happens, and already knowing that Warrior wins really takes a lot of the "drama" out of it.

[Guest LooneyTune]

You might not like it for the biggest problem...

 

Warrior blew up (a.k.a winded) about a minute into the match because, like the moron he is, ran down the entire aisle, which was 3 times longer than the average WWF arena, reuslting in having to go to lots of resting.

 

The match is quite good I think (hard to explain why, maybe I convert to markism for this automatically), considering Hogan carried Warrior in his back and through Egypt for 20 minutes.

[Some Guy 0]

SJK, I checked your profile and you were 4 when it happened (12 days from turning 5). To you kind of had to be there (by "there" I mean be a young mark at the time) to truly enjoy it. You had to have had the debates with your friends over who would win and who was better complete with mocking them if they thought the other guy should win. You had to have the WWF Magazine with the orange double cover (Hogan on the front and Warrior on the fold out). You had to be there to realize how huge this thing was at the time. This was bigger than Austin/Rock or anything in terms of anticipation that the WWF has thrown out since to me because I was a dumb kid.

 

That being said, the match quality really doesn't hold up well considering what has been down since, Austin/Rock blows it out of the water. It's 5 stars for the sheer mark out value and maybe 3 stars for the content, much like Hogan/Rock at WM 18.

[Guest Ray]

"Why is it praised so much?"

 

Because it's an epic superhero face vs superhero face match.

[Guest Ether]

Wasn't it the first clean pin (I'm not counting the Andre the Giant match) that most people saw (not counting PWI reporting that Dino Bravo pinned him in non-title matches twice in Quebec) of Hogan in almost 10 years?

[Guest Rrrsh]

Its liked because peopel are marks. It why Hogan-Andre is loved and Hogan-Rock. The matches sucked ass. But when your a mark, workrate don't matter.

[Dark Age 0]

Hogan/Rock didn't suck. I want to punch people in the face when they say it does.

[Guest LooneyTune]

It was by no means a wrestling classic, but it was light years better than Andre/Hogan in the workrate department.

[spman 0]

Wasn't it the first clean pin (I'm not counting the Andre the Giant match) that most people saw (not counting PWI reporting that Dino Bravo pinned him in non-title matches twice in Quebec) of Hogan in almost 10 years?

I think it very well may be one of the ONLY clean losses Hogan has ever had period.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Hogan/Rock didn't suck. I want to punch people in the face when they say it does.

It sucked in relation to the amount of love it gets from people.

 

Its was a decent match, avergae. Ok.

 

It was not good.

[Dark Age 0]

It's actually a very underrated match. Most people are so decided in what's good and what's bad that the match is immediatley shit on. "Oh it's got Hogan in, it MUST suck!". Wrong. Is it a "technical" marvel? No. It didn't have to be. That's my biggest irk. That fans think matches have to be technical to be good. A couple of weeks ago, Triple H said Mick Foley wasn't the greatest wrestler because he didn't use holds. Who gives a fuck? Triple H may use more wrestling moves than Foley (as funny as that sounds. Triple H - TECHNICAL WRESTLER!) but that doesn't make him better. Wrestling is art. It's about telling a story, whether it's done in a technical bout, a brawl, or whatever. Rock/Hogan told a better story than probably any WWE match in 2002. It's a billion times better than Shawn/Triple H from SummerSlam. I don't want to be quoted on calling it WWE MOTY for 2002, but it's pretty close. Don't right it off as being bad just because the two involved aren't the most graceful wrestlers.

[Guest Rrrsh]

No, see, the match was average because Hogan cant bump and is an aweful seller. What story did it tell? It was slow and boring. HBK/HHH shit kicks that match, and it in of its self was just a garbage match (a good one at that).

[Guest LooneyTune]

HBK/HHH was a heatless pile of garbage that was drop dead boring for 15 minutes until Shawn had to reuslt in bringing a ladder into the match, when it's not even a fucking ladder match.

 

Also featured one of the most pathetic blade jobs, unless he used a blood cap instead, which he probably did.

 

Hogan/Rock had everyone on their feet for 20 minutes, while HBK/HHH had everyone sitting on their hands.

[Dark Age 0]

No, see, the match was average because Hogan cant bump and is an aweful seller.

 

Well he didn't need to bump much. When he did, he looked fine to me. Nothing wrong with his selling, either.

 

What story did it tell? It was slow and boring.

 

Young lion Vs. old guard. Experience Vs. youth. This was Hogan's chance to prove he still belonged - he proved that he did, but Rock proved he had surpassed him. HE was the man now. Hence, the respect after the match. It wasn't boring.

 

HBK/HHH shit kicks that match, and it in of its self was just a garbage match (a good one at that).

 

Hogan cant bump and is an aweful seller

 

Yeah, Ok. How you can call Hogan's selling 'awful' then praise the SS02 match is beyond me. SummerSlam02 WASN'T a great match. It wasn't good.

 

BTW, I'd like you to read this:

 

Rock Vs. Hogan - WM18

[Guest LooneyTune]

HBK mark is RRRRSH, Dark Age. It's really not worth the time for this kind of argument.

[Precious Roy 0]

HBK/HHH is a classic example of a match that owns on first viewing but doesn't stand the test of time. So much of the coolness of that match live was the novelty of HBK wrestling again and his working the back injury in an over-the-top fashion. I won't lie, I loved this match the first time I saw it, but I like it less and less each subsequent time, to the point where I pretty much never want to see it again. Plus seeing HBK return to a full schedule and totally stop selling the back, and seeing HHH-HBK wrestle a million matches on top.....the special feeling that match had is completely gone.

 

Hogan-Rock smokes it on replay value. I still go nuts every time I see that match, it basically gets better each time, which you can say about very few matches of the modern era.

 

As for Hogan-Warrior, I was still a kid when it happened, it's hard to be objective.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Hogan/Warrior was the 1st time that the new generation of fans got to see a superhero work his way up to #1 Challenger. By the time much of the fans who are in their lower-mid 20s now started watching, Hulkamania was already running wild. Now, they had a fresh, different, & younger idol to cheer for.

 

Plus, I don't think Hogan ever had a match vs. a face in the Hulkamania era until then. Each guy got aggressive w/o acting heelish. Each man showed vulnerability to his opponent as the power of the "Little Warriors" was too much for Hogan to handle at times. Whereas, the support of "The Hulkamaniacs" almost proved to be fatal for UW.

 

It was the ultimate 20-30min staged exhibition of drama that had a satisfying climax and sent most everyone home happy. Couldn't have booked it better.

[Special K 0]

Hogan/Warrior is a master example of pacing in a match, knowing when to do the spots.

 

There was a match in Japan that Hogan had v Muta that was much lauded. I watched it, Oooh! Hogan busted out a Fujiwara armbar and an enziguiri! Match sucked.

 

I don't think anyone is calling Hogan/Warrior a five-star classic, but it's a good, solid match, that had tons of heat and a clean, unpredictable finish.

[Guest MikeSC]

And, hell, I'll say it --- Hogan/Rock I sucked hard. Take away the crowd reaction and the match is absolutely nothing to write home about.

 

It's as overrated as Foley/UT HITC.

-=Mike

[Guest LooneyTune]

HBK/HHH is a classic example of a match that owns on first viewing but doesn't stand the test of time. So much of the coolness of that match live was the novelty of HBK wrestling again and his working the back injury in an over-the-top fashion. I won't lie, I loved this match the first time I saw it, but I like it less and less each subsequent time, to the point where I pretty much never want to see it again. Plus seeing HBK return to a full schedule and totally stop selling the back, and seeing HHH-HBK wrestle a million matches on top.....the special feeling that match had is completely gone.

 

Hogan-Rock smokes it on replay value. I still go nuts every time I see that match, it basically gets better each time, which you can say about very few matches of the modern era.

 

As for Hogan-Warrior, I was still a kid when it happened, it's hard to be objective.

Best way to explain the differences between the two matches mentioned. I watched Hogan/Rock last week and still go nuts for most of the match, especially the hulk up when it seems the crowd almost blows the roof off the dome.

[Epic Reine 0]

Wasn't it the first clean pin (I'm not counting the Andre the Giant match) that most people saw (not counting PWI reporting that Dino Bravo pinned him in non-title matches twice in Quebec) of Hogan in almost 10 years?

I think it very well may be one of the ONLY clean losses Hogan has ever had period.

Hogan has done quite a few clean losses. He jobbed to Rock and Kurt Angle pretty cleanly. Brock Lesnar too.

[Guest LooneyTune]

He didn't say he's only done 1 clean job, he just worded it differently. At the time though, it was Hogans only real clean loss. He was pinned by Andre at S@S 80, but kicked out at 2, and when Atlas pinned him on 3/81 MSG, his feet were in the ropes.

[Dark Age 0]

Wasn't it the first clean pin (I'm not counting the Andre the Giant match) that most people saw (not counting PWI reporting that Dino Bravo pinned him in non-title matches twice in Quebec) of Hogan in almost 10 years?

I think it very well may be one of the ONLY clean losses Hogan has ever had period.

Hogan has done quite a few clean losses. He jobbed to Rock and Kurt Angle pretty cleanly. Brock Lesnar too.

Brock Lesnar Vs. Hulk Hogan

 

Boy, there's another underrated match.

[BUTT 0]

And, hell, I'll say it --- Hogan/Rock I sucked hard. Take away the crowd reaction and the match is absolutely nothing to write home about.

Just wondering, what was your opinion on Hogan/Warrior? I personally think that Hogan/Rock was actually better than it, even though I didn't think either was good when it came to actual wrestling.

[Special K 0]

In general, there are tons of matches that can overwhelm you with nostalgia. I would posit the Dreamer/Raven series of matches as a series of OK matches with a great storyline that can still suck us in and make us marks. I know I will never be able to view Bret/Owen WMX objectively since it was the first great match I saw. Likewise the Rude/Chono G1 finals match will always be firmly ensconced in my mind since it was the first puro match I saw, and I'm a mark for both.

 

In all honesty, none of the matches mentioned in this thread pertaining to Hogan are great, or shit. They're just fine. But, Hogan was a star, with incredible charisma. Being sucked into one of his matches is nothing to be ashamed about. It also doesn't put those matches in the realm of the great matches. They're great for markism, and fine for matches. That puts it in the realm of a very good, not great, match. And frankly, in the Hogan era, the wrestling audience was starved for great matches. That's why I think Steamer/Savage WMIII is overrated, but that's another argument for another day...

[pochorenella 0]

I was at the cusp of my markdom during the whole Ultimate Challenge weeks. IMO there was no other wrestler who could hold a candle to the Warrior, so you understand I went completely nuts for him when he won. It's not a technical marvel by any means, but the electricity of the crowd really surrounds you and engulfs you thruout the match. It was a fine effort by two guys at the peak of their popularity (Hogan maybe less) and it was a total dream match for the fans. IIRC it was the first Coliseum Video I ever bought and I watched it numerous times. I still like it now, even if I've smartened up now.

 

Now, regarding the HHH vs HBK SSlam match, I wonder if LooneyTune has seen the same match as I, because I remember the crowd going crazy for Shawn and the match, not sitting on their hands. And the heat HHH got after the sledgehammer to HBK's back was tremendous. It was a great match, it remains so. Maybe your well-known hatred towards Michaels is overwhelming you here.

[Guest MikeSC]

And, hell, I'll say it --- Hogan/Rock I sucked hard. Take away the crowd reaction and the match is absolutely nothing to write home about.

Just wondering, what was your opinion on Hogan/Warrior? I personally think that Hogan/Rock was actually better than it, even though I didn't think either was good when it came to actual wrestling.

Hogan v Warrior had the benefit of REALLY low expectations. Hogan v Warrior seemed better than it was because both men were so horrible and the match was laid out as well as it could be (and their rematch showed that). It gets a curve when reviewing it.

 

Rock actually WAS a good worker and his match with Hogan, IMO, was a shade worse than Hogan v Warrior. It seems MUCH worse because Rock is so much better a worker than Warrior.

-=Mike

[Guest LooneyTune]

I have seen Shawn v. Hunter plenty of times, and the first 13-14 minutes is just a boring, methodical paced "garbage match" where the crowd will gasp occasionally when Hunter beats on Shawns back. However, Shawn absolutely NO SELLING EVERYTHING kinda ruins everything the match built up.

 

The 1st time I saw the match, I thought it was pretty good, but that was just marking out seeing HBK return. Then every viewing after it just seems worse and worse to the point I don't want to watch it again.

[iggymcfly 0]

The appeal of Hogan/Warrior is obvious. Hogan had been the champion for the better part of six years, and everybody was starting to get sick of him. Just the very novelty of a face going in and beating him would be exciting enough to cloud everyone's vision at the time.

 

However, I saw the match the other day, and the actual match is terrible. Just absolutely atrocious. They do the stupid test of strength and shit for about ten minutes just copying each other the whole way. Warrior pushes Hogan backwards. Hogan pushes Warrior backwards. Hogan throws Warrior down. Warrior throws Hogan down. Hogan throws Warrior into the corner. Warrior throws Hogan into the corner. It's honestly like a parody of 80s wrestling. Then, they do restholds for a solid ten minutes that are obviously leading nowhere.

 

Finally, in the finish, Warrior's still stupid enough to walk right into Hogan's hulking up shit, he can't do anything about it, but then after he's already gotten hit by the big boot, he ducks out of the way of the legdrop. It was honestly such a shitty, boring match that it seems like it must have been a little bit of an anticlimax to the fans at the time.

 

Short of blowing spots, you really couldn't have a worse match. It was just as dull, plain, and boring as it could possibly be. Not only is it not as good as Rock/Hogan; not only is it not as good as Goldberg/Hogan, it's not even as good as Vince/Hogan.

 

I didn't watch wrestling back in the day, and I know that their main event wrestlers weren't exactly all about workrate, but Steiner/HHH is the only hyped modern-day PPV match that I can ever remember being as bad as Hogan vs. Warrior. The only thing that even came close to redeeming it was the finish, and the only real "innovation" there was that Hogan didn't win. If two wrestlers tried to work a match like that now, they'd get booed out of the building.

[Guest Rrrsh]

The major problem I have is that people think if they are marks for a wrsetler that the match is good. Hulk Hogan, at his age, is the shits as a worker. Thats not some big slag. Hogan has had good matches before, just not anymore. So you started getting gitty when Hogan Hulks up vs Rock, SO WHAT. The match might be entertaning to you, but it wasnt good. I can tell you that I was a massive Savage mark as a kid. And, watching as a kid, I marked all over his WM IV run. So what, the first three matches blew, and I can very easily say that.

 

Hogan-Warrior had a goos finish, IMO. BUt its deathly boring to get there. And, much like alot of overrated shit Austin produced at the tailspin of his carrer, the Hogan-Rock match was predictable and just average.

 

LooneyToon, I can say you a HBK hater like you can say I am a HBK fan. So, come up with something useful.