Italian journalist shot

[Guest MikeSC]

Friday night, Giuliana Sgrena was shot by American soldiers. She was released by Iraqi captors and her car was fired upon by soldiers. She is being portrayed as a "left-leaning" journalist --- reality is, she writes for a Communist paper that has been vigorously anti-war from the get-go.

 

However, at this point, the story becomes hard to fully grasp.

 

Sgrena claims that the soldiers fired 300-400 rounds into her car --- which, if true, makes her surviving with only one hit seem a bit fishy. She claims her car was not speeding and had stopped at prior checkpoints, which makes them not stopping at the one where the shooting occurred hard to figure out. It's not as if the military's "fire upon any vehicle who doesn't stop" rule is not rather widely known.

 

Her entire abduction story itself was bizarre to begin with. She was allegedly abducted on February 4 WHILE interviewing Fallujah refugees near a Mosque in Baghdad. She's admitted to being friendly with the terrorists. She happened to be on the phone with another journalists WHILE she was abducted --- also a bit odd. A tape of her asking Italy to remove all troops was released a day before the Italian Senate voted on it --- and she gave directions to whomever was holding the camera DURING her "plea" to stop moving.

 

And the camera, mind you, DID stop moving when she asked it to.

 

So, we have a vigorously anti-war journalist whose abduction was shaky, whose GOAL is to get Italy out of Iraq, and who decided to not stop at a checkpoint for reasons unknown. She claims soldiers shined flashlights into the car before unloading 300-400 rounds, yet only one person was killed, rather than EVERYBODY in the car who would be.

-=Mike

[Zorin Industries 0]

You do know of course that the man killed was an Italian government agent who secured her release? The same Italian government that supported you on Iraq

[Guest MikeSC]

You do know of course that the man killed was an Italian government agent who secured her release? The same Italian government that supported you on Iraq

Yup --- and it's absolutely bizarre that the car didn't stop at a checkpoint like it's supposed to.

-=Mike

[mister foozel 0]

how does she know how many shots were fired?

 

if she was hit, maybe it seemed like that many? i think i'd personally be just a little disoriented if i was shot

 

i assume that you didn't write that out Mike, so what is your take on this?

[Guest MikeSC]

how does she know how many shots were fired?

God knows, but that is her story.

if she was hit, maybe it seemed like that many? i think i'd personally be just a little disoriented if i was shot

If it was even MANY shots, she'd have been killed. The soldiers don't kid around with cars that don't stop at checkpoints.

i assume that you didn't write that out Mike, so what is your take on this?

I actually did write that out.

 

My feelings? The Italian gov't was suckered by a propagandist and now she is trying to turn the Italians against the mission.

-=Mike

[Boon 0]

What kind of mob hit leaves someone alive after 300-400 rounds?

[Guest INXS]

This is a very interesting story that I have been following closely this past week. It strikes me as very strange that they did not stop at the check point - I mean, if you drive through a check point you ARE going to get shot at.

[Guest MikeSC]

What kind of mob hit leaves someone alive after 300-400 rounds?

Hell, this is the US military. If they wanted to kill her --- she'd be quite dead right now.

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

The Italian people seemed to already be against the war, so I don't think they need to use this woman as some propaganda technique to turn people.

 

It's funny to read Mike's view on this, trying to twist and turn every way concievable to avoid the obvious: There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

[Guest MikeSC]

The Italian people seemed to already be against the war, so I don't think they need to use this woman as some propaganda technique to turn people.

 

It's funny to read Mike's view on this, trying to twist and turn every way concievable to avoid the obvious: There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

There was no misunderstanding.

 

Her car did not stop.

 

Thus, her car was fired upon.

 

SOP.

 

She is nothing more than a Communist propagandist whose word means nothing.

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

So basically it's okay to shoot anyone who disagrees with the war. Alrighty then.

[Boon 0]

There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

Uh- I think she's the one who screwed up.

 

Putting aside whether or not she believed in the war, her political beliefs, etc.

 

Why would she stop at every other checkpoint and not at this one? Did she forget where she was?

 

So basically it's okay to shoot anyone who disagrees with the war. Alrighty then.

 

Jesus Christ Sek- you want to talk about twisting shit around.

[Guest MikeSC]

So basically it's okay to shoot anyone who disagrees with the war. Alrighty then.

No, it's OK to shoot anybody who doesn't stop at a checkpoint in a war zone.

 

In fact, the only death involved was when the car had an accident after it spun out of control after the soldiers destroyed the engine. Nobody was killed by the soldiers shooting them.

-=Mike

[mister foozel 0]

how does she know how many shots were fired?

God knows, but that is her story.

if she was hit, maybe it seemed like that many? i think i'd personally be just a little disoriented if i was shot

If it was even MANY shots, she'd have been killed. The soldiers don't kid around with cars that don't stop at checkpoints.

i assume that you didn't write that out Mike, so what is your take on this?

I actually did write that out.

 

My feelings? The Italian gov't was suckered by a propagandist and now she is trying to turn the Italians against the mission.

-=Mike

so what is the real point of this story?

 

either the US f'd up like sek said, or she is lying through her teeth

 

does it really matter? Italy is against the war anyways!

[Guest sek69]

There seems to be some debate over wether the troops at the checkpoint knew the car carrying her was cleared to go to the airport. If the people in the car believed they had clearance, that might be why they didn't stop.

 

BTW, Boon, the tone of Mike's posts on the subject make it sound like since she's anti-war and a "Communist" (what is this, the 50s?) then the whole shooting is no big deal.

[Guest MikeSC]

so what is the real point of this story?

The Italian PM is actually supportive of the war and sent troops. The Italian Communists want Italy out and will do anything to get Italy out of the war.

 

Including, apparently, setting up an Italian Secret Service agent to be killed.

either the US f'd up like sek said, or she is lying through her teeth

Even she admits that they did not stop at the checkpoint where she not only didn't stop --- she ACCELERATED when passing. She ignored the soldiers flashing lights, making hand gestures, and firing warning shots.

does it really matter? Italy is against the war anyways!

The gov't is not. And the Communists seek to change that.

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

In fact, the only death involved was when the car had an accident after it spun out of control after the soldiers destroyed the engine. Nobody was killed by the soldiers shooting them.

-=Mike

Wrong.

 

An autopsy found Calipari, an experienced negotiator who had previously secured the release of other Italian hostages in Baghdad, was killed by a single shot to the head and died instantly.

[Guest MikeSC]

There seems to be some debate over wether the troops at the checkpoint knew the car carrying her was cleared to go to the airport. If the people in the car believed they had clearance, that might be why they didn't stop.

It doesn't matter. They ordered them to stop and they refused. Tough shit. If the soldiers asked Bremer's car to stop when he was there, he'd have been expected to stop, too.

 

The soldiers don't have the luxury of just knowing that THIS car isn't a bomb on wheels. They have to assume all cars are bombs.

BTW, Boon, the tone of Mike's posts on the subject make it sound like since she's anti-war and a "Communist" (what is this, the 50s?) then the whole shooting is no big deal.

No, it's fair to kill her because she ignored the checkpoint. That's SOP in a warzone.

 

Her story should be discounted because she's a Communist (which is actually a fact, like it or not --- her paper IS the official paper of the Italian Communist Party) and it doesn't hold up to even moderate questioning.

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

If I were to say that anything you say should be discounted because you're a Conservative you'd (rightly) have a shitfit over something so stupid.

 

Her being a Communist means exactly jack shit when the discussion is about why her car was fired on.

 

Hell, you won't even admit anyone was killed as a result of the gunfire.

[Guest MikeSC]

 

In fact, the only death involved was when the car had an accident after it spun out of control after the soldiers destroyed the engine. Nobody was killed by the soldiers shooting them.

            -=Mike

Wrong.

 

An autopsy found Calipari, an experienced negotiator who had previously secured the release of other Italian hostages in Baghdad, was killed by a single shot to the head and died instantly.

Wrong.

Officials: Freed hostage's driver ignored warnings

Italian agent killed, others wounded in checkpoint shooting

 

Friday, March 4, 2005 Posted: 9:18 PM EST (0218 GMT)

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. soldiers attempted to warn the occupants of a car carrying a freed Italian journalist before troops opened fire, killing a bodyguard and wounding the reporter, multinational officials said Friday night.

 

Giuliana Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the leftist Italian newspaper Il Manifesto, and three Italian security officers were in a car headed to Baghdad International Airport when they approached a checkpoint, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. (Full story)

 

Nicola Calipari was shielding Sgrena when he was killed, Berlusconi said.

 

Berlusconi said Sgrena had shrapnel in her left shoulder, and U.S. military officials said she was taken to a military hospital.

 

One agent was seriously wounded, and the other was shot in the leg and refused to go to a hospital, Italian news agencies reported.

 

President Bush called Berlusconi on Friday night from Air Force One to express his regrets and pledge a full investigation.

 

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)

 

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle."

 

Sgrena was kidnapped February 4 outside a mosque in Baghdad. Italian officials did not say how she was freed Friday.

 

Berlusconi said the two other people in the car contacted his office after the incident.

 

"They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation," he said.

 

Berlusconi said though that effort was "concluded positively," the death of Calipari, who was married with two children, brings grief.

 

"Something that was a joy for all of us ... that I believe brought us all happiness, had to be transformed to a profound sadness for the loss of a person that had behaved ... with valor," he said.

 

Berlusconi said he called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office in Rome for an explanation of the shooting. He said Sembler will have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops.

 

"Someone will have to take responsibility," he said.

 

A State Department spokeswoman said Sembler and Assistant Secretary of State William Burns called Italy's ambassador to the United States, Sergio Vento, to offer "U.S. condolences and any assistance the U.S. can provide."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/...main/index.html

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

Also, would Italian non-military personnel be expected to know our SOP when it comes to checkpoints?

[Guest MikeSC]

If I were to say that anything you say should be discounted because you're a Conservative you'd (rightly) have a shitfit over something so stupid.

Feel free to say it. If I'm ever abducted by terrorists under questionable circumstances, appear to have an unusually close relationship with the terrorists WHILE I'm their "hostage", and then get, as expected, get freed unharmed --- feel free to question me.

Her being a Communist means exactly jack shit when the discussion is about why her car was fired on.

 

Hell, you won't even admit anyone was killed as a result of the gunfire.

Because I don't think they were.

 

And even if it's true, it's irrelevant. They stop as they're supposed to and nobody dies.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Also, would Italian non-military personnel be expected to know our SOP when it comes to checkpoints?

YES.

 

It's common sense.

 

And they stopped at other ones.

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

 

In fact, the only death involved was when the car had an accident after it spun out of control after the soldiers destroyed the engine. Nobody was killed by the soldiers shooting them.

            -=Mike

Wrong.

 

An autopsy found Calipari, an experienced negotiator who had previously secured the release of other Italian hostages in Baghdad, was killed by a single shot to the head and died instantly.

Wrong.

Officials: Freed hostage's driver ignored warnings

Italian agent killed, others wounded in checkpoint shooting

 

Friday, March 4, 2005 Posted: 9:18 PM EST (0218 GMT)

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. soldiers attempted to warn the occupants of a car carrying a freed Italian journalist before troops opened fire, killing a bodyguard and wounding the reporter, multinational officials said Friday night.

 

Giuliana Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the leftist Italian newspaper Il Manifesto, and three Italian security officers were in a car headed to Baghdad International Airport when they approached a checkpoint, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. (Full story)

 

Nicola Calipari was shielding Sgrena when he was killed, Berlusconi said.

 

Berlusconi said Sgrena had shrapnel in her left shoulder, and U.S. military officials said she was taken to a military hospital.

 

One agent was seriously wounded, and the other was shot in the leg and refused to go to a hospital, Italian news agencies reported.

 

President Bush called Berlusconi on Friday night from Air Force One to express his regrets and pledge a full investigation.

 

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)

 

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle."

 

Sgrena was kidnapped February 4 outside a mosque in Baghdad. Italian officials did not say how she was freed Friday.

 

Berlusconi said the two other people in the car contacted his office after the incident.

 

"They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation," he said.

 

Berlusconi said though that effort was "concluded positively," the death of Calipari, who was married with two children, brings grief.

 

"Something that was a joy for all of us ... that I believe brought us all happiness, had to be transformed to a profound sadness for the loss of a person that had behaved ... with valor," he said.

 

Berlusconi said he called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office in Rome for an explanation of the shooting. He said Sembler will have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops.

 

"Someone will have to take responsibility," he said.

 

A State Department spokeswoman said Sembler and Assistant Secretary of State William Burns called Italy's ambassador to the United States, Sergio Vento, to offer "U.S. condolences and any assistance the U.S. can provide."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/...main/index.html

-=Mike

Wrong again.

 

Try using the latest story, not one from 2 days ago to prove your point:

 

talian journalist: Patrol 'shot as soon as they lit us up'

 

Sunday, March 6, 2005 Posted: 1:17 PM EST (1817 GMT)

 

ROME, Italy (CNN) -- An Italian journalist shot by U.S. forces in Iraq shortly after being freed from captors disputes a U.S. account of the incident in which she was wounded and a security agent protecting her was killed.

 

In an article published Sunday in her newspaper, Il Manifesto, Giuliana Sgrena wrote, "Our car was driving slowly," and "the Americans fired without motive."

 

She described a "rain of fire and bullets" in the incident.

 

The U.S. military said Sgrena's car rapidly approached a checkpoint Friday night, and those inside ignored repeated warnings to stop.

 

Troops used arm signals and flashing white lights, fired warning shots in front of the car, and shot into the engine block when the driver did not stop, the military said in a statement.

 

But in an interview with Italy's La 7 Television, the 56-year-old journalist said "there was no bright light, no signal."

 

And Italian magistrate Franco Ionta said Sgrena reported the incident was not at a checkpoint, but rather the shots came from "a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."

 

Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint.

 

It remains unclear whether U.S. officials knew that the Italian security team would be transporting Sgrena to the airport. U.S. and Italian officials have not said.

 

Sgrena was lightly wounded in the shoulder and underwent treatment at a U.S. hospital in Baghdad. She is now back in Rome, getting follow-up treatment at the city's military hospital.

 

In her article Sunday, headlined "My truth," Sgrena described the harrowing ordeal of "the most dramatic day of my life" -- including the moment that 50-year-old security agent Nicola Calipari threw himself on her to protect her from the bullets and she heard "his last breath."

 

An autopsy found Calipari, an experienced negotiator who had previously secured the release of other Italian hostages in Baghdad, was killed by a single shot to the head and died instantly. (Profile)

 

His body is lying in state at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Rome, where visitors have been paying their respects, and a state funeral was planned for Monday. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi said he would award Calipari, a married father of two, the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

 

One other member of the Italian secret service was in the car as well and was wounded. Italian officials said earlier there were two others in the car, but said Sunday there was only one other.

 

Sgrena wrote that after being released by her captors, she was transferred to the custody of Calipari and the other guards. She said Calipari "kept on talking and talking, you couldn't contain him, an avalanche of friendly phrases and jokes. I finally felt an almost physical consolation, warmth that I had forgotten for some time."

 

She was told "we were less than a kilometer" from the airport, where a plane was waiting to take her back to Rome, "when ... I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

 

"The driver started yelling that we were Italians. 'We are Italians, we are Italians.' Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain, I didn't know why."

 

She then thought of something her captors had told her: "The Americans don't want you to go back."

 

The left-leaning Il Manifesto even accused U.S. forces on Saturday of "assassinating" Calipari.

 

Sgrena's partner, Pierre Scolari, also blamed the shooting on the U.S. government, suggesting the incident was intentional.

 

"I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone," he said, according to Reuters.

Rome protests

 

President Bush called Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi Friday night to express his regrets about the shootings and pledged a full investigation.

 

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called his Italian counterpart Saturday morning also to offer his "regret at the loss of life and the situation," a senior defense official said on Sunday.

 

The Iraq war has been extremely unpopular in Italy from the beginning, and Friday's shooting triggered new protests. Thousands packed streets in Rome carrying signs condemning the war and the Bush administration.

 

Sgrena and her newspaper fiercely oppose the war. She wrote that she told her kidnappers that repeatedly, but they refused to let her go.

 

CNN's Alessio Vinci and Elise Labott contributed to this report.

[Guest MikeSC]

Well, then that is a shame.

 

Car should have stopped.

 

It's a shame an officer had to die because of a hoax perpetrated by that "journalist".

-=Mike

[Guest sek69]

Well, then that is a shame.

 

Car should have stopped.

 

It's a shame an officer had to die because of a hoax perpetrated by that "journalist".

-=Mike

You know, when someone on the left makes claims of a hoax, all kinds of proof is demanded, and even if there is proof the theory usually ends up dismissed.

 

Someone on the right can call something a hoax, and it usually gets accepted with little or no evidence.

 

 

Why would this woman go so far for a hoax that would seem to have the goal of getting the Italian people to believe something most already believe? Just because the government backs the war, doesn't mean the people do. The same thing is true in the UK and half of America.

 

Just saying, is all.

[Boon 0]

What dismissed hoaxes that were submitted by left-wingers are you referring to, Sek? Just curious.

 

If we can all agree that she in fact did not stop at the checkpoint when she was supposed to, and had stopped at previous ones so therefore knew the routine, everything else is irrelevant.

 

It sucks, but that's the world that she entered herself into.

[Guest MikeSC]

Well, then that is a shame.

 

Car should have stopped.

 

It's a shame an officer had to die because of a hoax perpetrated by that "journalist".

        -=Mike

You know, when someone on the left makes claims of a hoax, all kinds of proof is demanded, and even if there is proof the theory usually ends up dismissed.

 

Someone on the right can call something a hoax, and it usually gets accepted with little or no evidence.

 

Why would this woman go so far for a hoax that would seem to have the goal of getting the Italian people to believe something most already believe? Just because the government backs the war, doesn't mean the people do. The same thing is true in the UK and half of America.

 

Just saying, is all.

Because she wants to generate pressure on the Italian PM to get out of Iraq.

 

Her entire story made no sense. She was kidnapped WHILE talking on the phone to another journalist WHILE interviewing Fallujah refugees (and, since she was interviewing them, you can rest assured the stories weren't pro-America to say the least). She was "never mistreated" by her captors (truly stunning revelation there).

 

Her boyfriend is quick to say the US targeted her, ignoring that this occurred at night (meaning they wouldn't know it WAS her) AND ignoring that she ignored a request to stop by heavily armed people who have had to deal with guys driving cars laden with explosives into their area.

 

Let's say they targeted her. Why is she still alive? Why would the troops have stopped after the car was disabled? If she was the target (she wasn't), then she'd have been eliminated.

 

Her story doesn't begin to measure up.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

*throws flag*

 

Use of circumstantial evidence in a conspiratorial manner.

 

Five yard penalty.

 

Still 2nd down.

[Guest Cerebus]

Also, for the record, from what I've read and have been told the shot was clean meaning that the soldiers did what they were trained to do not that what they did was, ultimately, the best thing that could have happened (the best thing that could have happened was that the car would have passed in without incident and this woman would have gone home to quietly spew more hatred against the US).