The OAO RAW Thread - 5/16/05

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Bullshit. Absolute, pure, unadulaterated, bullshit.

 

Jericho and RVD connected to the crowd way better than Benoit ever did. The fact is that HHH put Benoit over continuously for three months and brought him from "guy who can't win the big one" to "main event star". Even after the feud was over, Benoit was presented as HHH's nemesis, and the man he fears seeing in the ring.

 

During Jericho's reign, he was built as the least credible champion ever, as not only could he not beat his opponents clean, he would have have to cheat 3 or 4 times just to have a chance of bringing them down. He even did this to blow off a feud that was based around him not being able to beat his opponent clean. (Rock: No Mercy-Royal Rumble)

 

RVD, meanwhile was over to levels that Benoit never dreamed of in late 2001. However, what they did is hold him tantalizingly close to the World Title picture for quite a while, teasing a title win in every way possible, only to shunt him down to the midcard, and neuter his moveset.

 

Stuck with a worker who's moveset suddenly consisted of kicks and the frog splash, and a character who was an utter failure, the fans quickly got bored with RVD, and his overness shot downward.

 

Trust me, if RVD had got the push that Benoit did, they wouldn't have needed Batista to take over the top face spot.

I don't think anything you just said there makes any sense in reference to what I said.

 

Let me dumb it down for you, sport: Out of the group of wrestlers that I mentioned (Booker, Jericho and RVD) Benoit still came out looking better in the end because he didn't get outright squashed.

 

Benoit can connect with the audience in ways that Jericho, Booker and RVD only dream of.

[what 0]

Benoit can connect with the audience in ways that Jericho, Booker and RVD only dream of.

I might agree with you if Benoit had any charisma at all.

 

Or if he could cut a promo.

 

The only reason he got the title was because HHH saw Benoit as no threat to his spot. Not because he deserved it more than Jericho, Booker and RVD all of whom were buried. Not because of some "connection with the audience". Benoit belongs in the upper midcard.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Those are such predictably sad answers. The bottom, unignorable line is that through the way the guy works in the ring the fans connect with him on level that probably only Eddy Guerrero can achieve.

 

"Charisma" is not defined by a flashy entrance (Michaels) or lots of ring antics (Flair, Rock). Sometimes it goes beyond that. If it's too deep for you to understand I suppose it's your loss.

[what 0]

Those are such predictably sad answers. The bottom, unignorable line is that through the way the guy works in the ring the fans connect with him on level that probably only Eddy Guerrero can achieve.

He's a good wrestler. Nobody's saying otherwise about Benoit. But there is no magical fan connection that puts him in another tier than Booker, Jericho and RVD. Those three happen to have characters which are far more interesting than Benoit's. They still get cheered. They're still over. But HHH sent them to the midcard because they are threats to his position. Benoit isn't because he doesn't have what it takes to carry a federation.

 

"Charisma" is not defined by a flash entrance (Michaels) or lots of ring antics (Flair, Rock. Sometimes it goes beyond that. If it's too deep for you to understand I suppose it's your loss.

 

I like how you say Benoit has charisma but can't even come close to pointing it out. There is no charisma secret to understand. Benoit is bland.

 

RVD and Batista are shitty mic workers. But they have charisma that gets them over without being able to talk. Benoit doesn't have that. Benoit's great in the ring and should be used in the midcard because he doesn't have what it takes to carry a company (as opposed to Jericho, Booker). He'd be a good candidate for a program with Benjamin to help put him over, IMO.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

You think Booker has what it takes to carry a company?

 

That's a fuckin laugh.

[SuperJerk 0]

Batista is hardly "shitty" on the mic. They rarely give him anything interesting to say, but he does sound convincing saying it.

[Exslade ZX 0]

Those are such predictably sad answers. The bottom, unignorable line is that through the way the guy works in the ring the fans connect with him on level that probably only Eddy Guerrero can achieve.

 

"Charisma" is not defined by a flashy entrance (Michaels) or lots of ring antics (Flair, Rock). Sometimes it goes beyond that. If it's too deep for you to understand I suppose it's your loss.

And to that I say, yea right. You're trying to tell me you think Benoit can connect with thecrowd better then Chris Jericho for instance?? I mean, I'm not even the biggest Jericho fan, but even when he IS getting squashed he connects with the fans, and also huge pops. One example, is people still go crazy for that crappy little thing Jericho does when his opponent gets hooked in the ropes, 619 style. And Benoit's equivalent to that is what? The throat slash probaly..

 

Fact is, you're seeing what you want to see. Benoit has no kind of 'magical connection' that makes him better then the likes of Jericho or RVD. If anyone should be compared to, connecting with the crowd like Eddie, IMo it'd be Jericho. Who's Y2J chants, can be compared to that of the Eddie chants. But how many chants does Benoit get? While over during his matches, his seems he doesn't connect as greatly with the crowd out of the in ring setting.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

The difference between Benoit and everybody else (including Eddie) is the lack of pandering to the crowd. He gets over on hard work and respect alone, something nobody else in the federation can claim.

[Black Lushus 0]

I'm not sure if I can agree with that conencting with the crowd arguement with Benoit...seems to me, especially the past 6 months or so, that the crowd pops rather rabidly every single time they see this guy and pop for almost everything he does in the ring...basically what Curry there is saying...

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I love how two people so far have used the term "magical connection", implying that I said there was something along those lines when I never did.

 

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

[The Niggardly King 0]

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

There is no one I can think of other than Eddie. I think in a few more years though, Benjamin will be able to do this.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Agreed w/ the Benjamin comparison. The crowd has the buzz about them when he's in the ring, you can tell they're waiting for him to pull off some crazy shit.

[strummer 0]

oddly enough Benoit probably pandered to the crowd more in WCW with the snot blow and throat slash gesture. He doesn't do that anymore, it's all business. I can't think of a single wrestler in the company other than him who doesn't blatantly pander to the crowd

[The Metal Maniac 0]

There is no one I can think of other than Eddie.

 

I dunno that I'd even put Eddie in there. I mean, yeah, he's a good worker, but he can also cut some good promos and has charisma leaking out of his ears, it seems. So I'd say his overness isn't based soley on his in-ring work.

[what 0]

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

Benoit has connected with the fans because of his in-ring work because that's all he has. He doesn't have anything else to fall back on. Anything else that would ever make him connect with the fans. Booker, RVD, Jericho and a lot of others do. And those people are/were more deserving to get a shot then Benoit.

[Black Lushus 0]

I love how two people so far have used the term "magical connection", implying that I said there was something along those lines when I never did.

 

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

you do realize I was agreeing with YOU right?

[The Niggardly King 0]

There is no one I can think of other than Eddie.

 

I dunno that I'd even put Eddie in there. I mean, yeah, he's a good worker, but he can also cut some good promos and has charisma leaking out of his ears, it seems. So I'd say his overness isn't based soley on his in-ring work.

Yeah, you got a point there. But I also remember when Eddie wasn't cutting promos on Smackdown, and he was still over on just his work alone. But the more I think about, I'd have to agree with you. One main reason is that I think Eddie can give the best promo in the WWE today... that is whenever the writer's give him something decent to work with.

[Exslade ZX 0]

I love how two people so far have used the term "magical connection", implying that I said there was something along those lines when I never did.

 

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

you do realize I was agreeing with YOU right?

I'm pretty sure he was referring to myself, and I think 'what'.

 

And I just used the phrase 'magical connection' to continue what he was saying IMO

[The Niggardly King 0]

If somebody can name me a wrestler in the company who's as over with the crowd based simply on in-ring work as Benoit I'd like to hear it.

Benoit has connected with the fans because of his in-ring work because that's all he has. He doesn't have anything else to fall back on. Anything else that would ever make him connect with the fans. Booker, RVD, Jericho and a lot of others do. And those people are/were more deserving to get a shot then Benoit.

I'm a Booker T fan, but the guy is just painful to watch now. He'll get the decent pop for his entrance, and unless if he is taunting and playing up the crowd, they're dead for the guy. Same goes for RVD. If Rob isn't taunting or hitting the 5*, the crowd could care less.

[tominator89 0]

If a wrestler doesn't pander to the crowd then he won't have a job for very long.

[The Niggardly King 0]

If a wrestler doesn't pander to the crowd then he won't have a job for very long.

They're are wrestlers who can do this, and actually keep a crowd interested throughout the match most of the time... and there are wrestlers who don't get any reaction at all unless they're pandering.

[tominator89 0]

In a worked sport, every single thing a wrestler does panders to the crowd. I thought this what they taught on the first day of wrestling school.

[The Niggardly King 0]

In a worked sport, every single thing a wrestler does panders to the crowd. I thought this what they taught on the first day of wrestling school.

What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather have a guy like Benoit on top, who can at least keep a crowd interested throughout his match, than how Booker T or RVD now.

[tominator89 0]

Yeah, I didn't mean to give you a hard time or anything.

 

I think the new generation of wrestlers are really suffering from being put in a position that they aren't ready for. The Angle/Marty match from Smackdown was a nice example of two guys who know how to work a match. The generic OVW guys seem completely lost in the ring when compared to a guy like Benoit who can improvise when needed. As stated before, Sheltdon definitely has a "what will he do next?" vibe which can only help his cause. To the average fan, he definitely stands out of the crowd.

 

Jericho's "I don't care" gimmick may actually represent more of the backstage than just himself. Booker and RVD have been insanely over throughout their careers, but (you figure out why) were not able to make the leap to the next level. As far as I'm concerned they are the new JOB Squad.

[Exslade ZX 0]

Yeah, I didn't mean to give you a hard time or anything.

 

I think the new generation of wrestlers are really suffering from being put in a position that they aren't ready for. The Angle/Marty match from Smackdown was a nice example of two guys who know how to work a match. The generic OVW guys seem completely lost in the ring when compared to a guy like Benoit who can improvise when needed.

Well, that's because these are guys who've been in the business what? 10-15 years. You might be able to, but it's highly doubtful you'll find any guys like that anymore. Guys who've been in the business at least 5 years even. So you have a lot of guys who get called up after 2-3 years of training, and people try to compare them to Benoit/Jericho etc. who have been in the business for over 10 years.

[iggymcfly 0]

When RVD was in the Alliance, he was over solely on the basis of his ring work, and he was much more over than Benoit was during his title run.

 

This is not to say that RVD was ever a better all-around wrestler than Benoit, or that he can connect with the crowd on his ring work the way Benoit can now, but at the time, he was more over based on his ring work.

 

The original point that I responded to though was the assertion that the reason Benoit remained over after his "burial" was that he just connected better with the crowd all around than Jericho or RVD. I'm saying that point is wrong, because at the peaks of their overness (both in mid to late 2001), Jericho and RVD connected better with the crowd than Benoit.

 

I'm saying the reason that Benoit did better is that he was never really buried and continued to be pushed as a strong main event player, even after his push ended. Jericho and RVD meanwhile were buried thoroughly, and sent all the way down to the low midcard where the fans lost interest in them.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Benoit has also gotten wins over Triple H, which I can't recall even one win over Trips for RVD, and only two for Jericho. Trips has no problem losing to Benoit, because Benoit will never be a threat with how the writing is.

[Masked Heel 0]

jeez why are we having another round of this discussion maybe we should blow it off in a hell in a cell or something. We get it some of you guys don't like HHH and like Beniot, some of you like HHH either way this is just another round of who can argue for stupider for longer. Both of these men could be inserted into a tittle feud at any time and it would be believable to the fans, and like it or not HHH has been promoted as one of the best and top stars for at least 5 years now its natural to see him at the top of the card or on Raw besides the Undertaker or Kane he's probably one of the most reconizable still wrestling. He hasn't won a match since hurricane and rosey and isn't even on tv right now so just shut up and watch the show get drunk if u have to or something but theres no need to start this stupid argument of putting someone over again its pointless

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's funny how HHH can not be on the show, yet still have segments dedicated to him and is still talked about.

[Karc 0]

It's funny how HHH can not be on the show, yet still have segments dedicated to him and is still talked about.

That just shows how much Benoit was "elevated."

 

And it also shows how much Triple H has seemingly gotten over with the smarks.

 

Which is weird.