The OAO RAW Thread - 5/16/05

[iggymcfly 0]

Who cares? HHH cheated to win in the "Pick Your Poison" match. It's not like he won clean. And the Triple Threat matches were clean, even if they weren't "singles matches".

 

Basically, HHH and Benoit have gotten in the ring 6 times in the last year or so, and Benoit won 5 times. I think it's pretty clear who put over who there.

[Exslade ZX 0]

I love how HHH has never, flat-out jobbed to Benoit in a one-on-one match without some kind of bullshit involved.

 

Vengence- Eugene clocks H with chair

 

RAW Ironman- See above

 

Gold Rush Tourney- Dave "The Joker" Batista helps Benoit out by holding back the ropes.

 

Funny how we didn't see anybody interfere on Benoit's half in the Pick Your Poison match.

I especially hated when Benoit got all that help at WMXX.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Because Mania was a one-on-one match, right?

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Curry, you're wrong. Get over it bro.

 

HHH elevated Benoit.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Curry. Benoit made HHH tap in the middle of the ring, at the biggest PPV in a since WM 17.

 

That will always be remebered as such and HBK's involvement is irrelevant.

[Exslade ZX 0]

Because Mania was a one-on-one match, right?

If anything, that only more disproves yoru point. That means Benoit beat BOTH Michaels AND HHH. Yes, the supposedly unbeatable Kliq. The guys who use all their backstage pull so that they almost never lose. And yet they BOTH lost, to fucking Chris Benoit of all people, who everyone thinks has just had his soul crushed by HHH.

 

That just means Chris Benoit did the unthinkable by beating two Kliq members in one match.

[Open the Muggy Gate 0]

 

This is the greatest animated gif EVER!

Thank ya.

[AndrewTS 0]

HHH elevated Benoit.

 

What happened then?

 

What's Benoit doing now?

 

What's Batista done since beating HHH?

[Guest Rrrsh]

The second most over Face on RAW.

 

And viewed (plus treated) as such.

[AndrewTS 0]

The second most over Face on RAW.

 

And viewed (plus treated) as such.

What does HBK have to do with this?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Curry, you're wrong. Get over it bro.

 

HHH elevated Benoit.

The only thing HHH elevated Benoit to was a permanent opponent for Flair and Batista and to be used as a pawn in his Eugene angle.

 

Benoit was booked as a second-rate champion, period. His only two feuds outside of HHH were Orton and Kane. Both feuds built up in a matter of two weeks. Both feuds decided by a battle royale. The Bad Blood PPV was built entirely around HBK/HHH and the HHH/Eugene program got just as much (if not more) focus then Benoit/Orton.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Because Mania was a one-on-one match, right?

If anything, that only more disproves yoru point. That means Benoit beat BOTH Michaels AND HHH. Yes, the supposedly unbeatable Kliq. The guys who use all their backstage pull so that they almost never lose. And yet they BOTH lost, to fucking Chris Benoit of all people, who everyone thinks has just had his soul crushed by HHH.

 

That just means Chris Benoit did the unthinkable by beating two Kliq members in one match.

You're such a fuckass it's unbelievable.

 

If you'll notice my previous post deal with Benoit vs HHH ONE ON ONE. I could give two shits about Michaels involvement, though you are right that it was a political pull that got him there.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

The LONG TERM effects were devastating to Benoit! I mean, he went on to MAIN EVENT SUMMERSLAM...and then MAIN EVENT SURVIVOR SERIES...and then MAIN EVENT NEW YEAR'S REVOLUTION.

 

1. He jobbed at Summerslam. To Randy Orton.

 

2. M-A-V-E-N was in the main event at SurSer too.

 

3. Bringing up NYR is really silly, considering that HHH won that friggin' match.

 

4. The month after Benoit dropped the title, he was in the OPENING MATCH, while HHH was winning back the world title.

 

Bottom line: Benoit's positioning on PPV cards since dropping the title is not a good way to convince me that HHH put him over. Hell, his positioning WHILE he was champ wouldn't convince me HHH put him over.

 

I am still of the belief that HHH only put over Benoit so that when people said he never put anyone over, he could say "that's not true, I put over Benoit!" even though Benoit was already over in the first place, and didn't seem to move very far up the card at all.

 

I mean, did it not seem strange to anyone else that Benoit lost the title to Orton, then never really seemed to care about winning it back (save the rematch the very next night) as Orton went on to drop it to HHH?

 

Basically, it seems to me that HHH is exactly where he was before, and Benoit is exactly where he was before (except he now gets to be called a former champ), only HHH gets to take credit for "putting over" Benoit.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I knew somebody who was of the Conky love would understand.

[Exslade ZX 0]

(except he now gets to be called a former champ)

Is that not a step up?

 

I mean, fact remains that even if you all do believe that HHH has never elevated Benoit which may or may not be true, he has NEVER just buried the guy and to say so is just asinine. Which was what the arguement was all about at the start

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Just so we're clear, David Arquette is also a former champ. What a step up.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I don't consider Benoit being a former champ a big deal because, like I said, the whole thing to me seemed like just another political move on HHH's part, only done more intelligently.

 

Besides, even if you're a former champ, that doesn't mean you can't be jobbed out. Not saying that Benoit is, but still.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Benoit is a former credible champion of the WWE and held the #1 title in wrestling for 5 months.

 

Arquette held a sinking ship's title until a gimmick match.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Are you denying that Arquette is a former champion?

 

What? You're not?

 

Hmmm.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Benoit is a former credible champion of the WWE and held the #1 title in wrestling for 5 months.

 

Arquette held a sinking ship's title until a gimmick match.

"Credible" is a debateable term when your biggest accomplishments include jobbing to a flash-in-the-pan youngster and wrestling a retard.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

And being the #2 focus of the shows.

 

At best.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Don't forget Benoit somehow being inserted into the Lita/Kane storyline. That continued on long after he jobbed so I guess you could say he played second fiddle to that angle too.

 

But hey, he beat lots of people and made HHH tap out. That's what fuckin counts.

[Exslade ZX 0]

And being the #2 focus of the shows.

 

At best.

Because being the #2 focus is so horrible...

 

I'm sure guys like Hurricane would give anything to be the #2 focus (possibly). And the fact remains he was still the WORLD CHAMPION. If you watch pretty much any wrestlers interviews, especially Benoit, their 'greatest goal' is to become the World Heavyweight Champion. And hey...he was the World Heavyweight Champion.

 

Honestly, I don't even know what the arguement is about anymore. But Benoit when he wasn't the top (which was like what? 1 month?) was one of the top programs on the show. I really dont' see that as being buried at all. And when he was the 'top' program, he was beating people left and right. Even if for example it was 'with the help of a retard'. I mean, its just the regular smark double standard seemingly. If HHH needs Evo or something to beat Benoit...in the end it's Benoit looking weak. If Benoit gets the help of Eugene, or Batista in the latest case, somehow, it still ends up making Benoit look weak.

 

But hey, he beat lots of people and made HHH tap out. That's what fuckin counts.

Is it not? Just walk up to the like, markiest of all marks, and ask him 'Who are the top guys on RAW?' You know what he'll probaly say? Batista (probaly the first name that would come to mind since he's the world Champ), Triple H (well duh), Chris Benoit...Yes, Chris Benoit. Yes, he would probaly be mentioned before the likes of Shawn Michaels or like Jericho.

 

If you want to argue Jericho has always been playing second fiddle, and has been buried, that might work, but I don't see where the Benoit has been buried thing is coming from.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Because being the #2 focus is so horrible...

 

It is when you're the fucking WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.

 

If HHH needs Evo or something to beat Benoit...in the end it's Benoit looking weak.

 

No, it's HHH winning, which is the problem.

[Exslade ZX 0]

It is when you're the fucking WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.

Well, true, which is why I pointed out it was only for like 1 month. Id it lasted Benoit's whole title reign, there might be a little more something to be pissed off about. But as it stands, he had one PPV where he wasn't in the main event.

 

No, it's HHH winning, which is the problem.

But honestly, I don't believe that makes any sense. Should the man NEVER WIN again? Yea, I'm sure typical thinking says he's won enough in his career, but, if HHH lost every match he has for 2 straight years, and then wins one, for a lot, it'd still be a problem. Now I don't like HHH as much as the next guy, but should the guy never win?

 

Hell..what was the last match he's won anyways? Winning the World title last?

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Id it lasted Benoit's whole title reign, there might be a little more something to be pissed off about. But as it stands, he had one PPV where he wasn't in the main event.

 

And all those RAWs which still seemed to be the HHH show. Honestly now; how many times did he wrestle in meaningless tag matches while he was champ? I seem to remember at least a few, and I didn't even watch RAW that much.

 

Now I don't like HHH as much as the next guy, but should the guy never win?

 

Yes. HHH should never win a match again, because that is honestly what it would take for me to get really excited about that belt. I really can't give a shit about a belt that I *know* HHH is going to win back shortly.

[AlaskanHero 0]

Hell..what was the last match he's won anyways? Winning the World title last?

 

I think it was against the Hurricane and Rosey.

 

Anyways, Exslade, you're fighting a pointless battle. If HHH wins, everyone says he's holding people down. If he loses, then it's "handing out jobs like it's candy" or jobbing just so he can get out of a job later. The man cannot do any good to some of the people here. Hell, some people (note the word "some") make HHH look more evil than Satan.

 

Personally, I don't think Benoit was really hurt or buried by HHH during his title reign. He still gets loud reactions. If he were to win the World Title, he'd be a credible champion. He hasn't been buried. Jericho was buried. Booker T was buried. Benoit is just fine, probably doing a small bit better than before his match at Wrestlemania XX. I know that I give more of a damn about Benoit now than I did before him moving to Raw or winning the World Title.

 

Besides, it's not like anyone is really going to remember his short feud with Kane or Orton. Hell, not many will even remember the match at Backlash. In 10 or 20 years, are any of you really going to look back on Benoit and only nitpick about how he was the #2 Focus on Raw or are you more likely to remember the sight of Benoit making HHH tap at Wrestlemania XX?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

The only reason that Benoit has survived the burial somewhat intact, as opposed to the likes of Jericho, Booker and RVD is because he has an unparalelled connection with the audience and is still one of the top 3 workers in the company at any given point- has been for quite some time now.

[iggymcfly 0]

Bullshit. Absolute, pure, unadulaterated, bullshit.

 

Jericho and RVD connected to the crowd way better than Benoit ever did. The fact is that HHH put Benoit over continuously for three months and brought him from "guy who can't win the big one" to "main event star". Even after the feud was over, Benoit was presented as HHH's nemesis, and the man he fears seeing in the ring.

 

During Jericho's reign, he was built as the least credible champion ever, as not only could he not beat his opponents clean, he would have have to cheat 3 or 4 times just to have a chance of bringing them down. He even did this to blow off a feud that was based around him not being able to beat his opponent clean. (Rock: No Mercy-Royal Rumble)

 

RVD, meanwhile was over to levels that Benoit never dreamed of in late 2001. However, what they did is hold him tantalizingly close to the World Title picture for quite a while, teasing a title win in every way possible, only to shunt him down to the midcard, and neuter his moveset.

 

Stuck with a worker who's moveset suddenly consisted of kicks and the frog splash, and a character who was an utter failure, the fans quickly got bored with RVD, and his overness shot downward.

 

Trust me, if RVD had got the push that Benoit did, they wouldn't have needed Batista to take over the top face spot.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

HHH never put over Benoit.

 

You're foolish to think otherwise.

 

For Benoit to be "put over" HHH, HHH would have to "step down" from his position on RAW. That never once happened. HHH was always the top star on RAW, his storylines always had the main focus, he was the most important guy. For that to happen while Benoit held the title just made Benoit look like the lameduck champion he was.