RAW is WAR episode

[JN News 0]

I just downloaded this episode from the PWTorrents website, and I gotta say that watching this show again certainly brought back alot of memories for me, being that I was a huge Hart Foundation mark at the time. I remember getting real emotional in the wake of Brian Pillman's death. I also remember cheering for The Hart Foundation, throughout the whole night, because I felt that they should've won the night, 3-0 in their respective matches.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, my favorite match of the night was British Bulldog vs. Rocky Maivia with both respective factions in each corner. Of course, the Bulldog won, and rightfully so. Owen Hart beat Hawk to retain the IC Title, and I still to this day think that Bret Hart should still have gone over on HHH, just so that the Hart Foundation could complete their tribute to their fallen friend, Brian Pillman.

 

 

 

What are your thoughts on this memorable night?

[Fartsauce 0]

I remember this episode. Mick Foley said in his book that the meeting before the night pretty much did away with all the cartoonish characters. I wasn't really fond of the Melanie Pillman appearance but that's Vince. I remember reading somewhere that Hunter was actually supposed to pin Bret in this match (why?) but Bret lobbied for a countout instead.

[Jericholic82 0]

I remember this episode. Mick Foley said in his book that the meeting before the night pretty much did away with all the cartoonish characters. I wasn't really fond of the Melanie Pillman appearance but that's Vince. I remember reading somewhere that Hunter was actually supposed to pin Bret in this match (why?) but Bret lobbied for a countout instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably would have been interference by Shanw leading to the pin, to build heat for Survivor Series I would think.

 

Anyhow I have the Livewire episode the week after this on tape and it shows recaps of that RAW.

 

Also had Kane destroying Matt and Jeff Hardy (then just jobbers) while they were waiting for their match in the ring.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I remember this episode. Mick Foley said in his book that the meeting before the night pretty much did away with all the cartoonish characters. I wasn't really fond of the Melanie Pillman appearance but that's Vince. I remember reading somewhere that Hunter was actually supposed to pin Bret in this match (why?) but Bret lobbied for a countout instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably would have been interference by Shanw leading to the pin, to build heat for Survivor Series I would think.

 

Anyhow I have the Livewire episode the week after this on tape and it shows recaps of that RAW.

 

Also had Kane destroying Matt and Jeff Hardy (then just jobbers) while they were waiting for their match in the ring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Although my memory is a littly hazy on this, I believe there was some internal knowledge that Bret was either already leaving or being asked to leave, so might as well get some jobs out of him while still possible.

 

Bret's refusal to put over Hunter here also fueled the fire that he wasn't going to job the belt on the way out like he said he would.

[BHK 0]

Is the HHH/Bret match worth finding?

[cawthon777 0]

Bret's refusal to put over Hunter here also fueled the fire that he wasn't going to job the belt on the way out like he said he would.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would have been stupid for Triple H to pin Bret at that time, Bret leaving or not.

 

This was long before the world champion did non-title jobs on free TV. Being pinned by Hunter would have hurt Bret a lot more than losing to the Patriot.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Bret's refusal to put over Hunter here also fueled the fire that he wasn't going to job the belt on the way out like he said he would.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would have been stupid for Triple H to pin Bret at that time, Bret leaving or not.

 

This was long before the world champion did non-title jobs on free TV. Being pinned by Hunter would have hurt Bret a lot more than losing to the Patriot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bret got the finish changed because he felt it made no sense to have Hunter beat him clean if it wasn't going to lead to anything. And it wasn't going to lead to anything; there would be no program or feud between the two, so Bret's decision made total business sense.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Bret's refusal to put over Hunter here also fueled the fire that he wasn't going to job the belt on the way out like he said he would.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would have been stupid for Triple H to pin Bret at that time, Bret leaving or not.

 

This was long before the world champion did non-title jobs on free TV. Being pinned by Hunter would have hurt Bret a lot more than losing to the Patriot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bret got the finish changed because he felt it made no sense to have Hunter beat him clean if it wasn't going to lead to anything. And it wasn't going to lead to anything; there would be no program or feud between the two, so Bret's decision made total business sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It DIDN'T make sense for him to do the job - that's the whole point. It was my understanding that they pitched ideas like this, Bulldog's loss in the UK, and the three proposed jobs to Michaels in order to show that the writing was on the wall and they didn't want Bret anymore.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

[JN News 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

 

Which shows me that he had absolutely ZERO consideration for other people. He just didn't care.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to the Observer piece on Survivor Series '97, Vince approached Davey on the day of the show and asked him to job with the idea that they'd build to a rematch at a bigger show in Manchester several months down the road. According to McMahon, Bulldog was the only Hart Foundation member that Shawn would work with.

 

However, this was never the actual plan. The WWF intentionally breached Hart's contract two days later. The Bulldog job was just taking out insurance in case of an impending defection.

 

Michaels is still a dick, though.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to the Observer piece on Survivor Series '97, Vince approached Davey on the day of the show and asked him to job with the idea that they'd build to a rematch at a bigger show in Manchester several months down the road. According to McMahon, Bulldog was the only Hart Foundation member that Shawn would work with.

 

However, this was never the actual plan. The WWF intentionally breached Hart's contract two days later. The Bulldog job was just taking out insurance in case of an impending defection.

 

Michaels is still a dick, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bulldog was meant to win the UK match. The idea behind the booking was to show to the locker room that Shawn was really a professional, and would do business. Shawn just changed his mind at the last minute, after Davey had done a ton of press to dedicate the match to his dying sister. Davey Boy doing the job had nothing to do with Bret leaving; it happened purely because Shawn pulled a power play he was allowed to get away with.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to the Observer piece on Survivor Series '97, Vince approached Davey on the day of the show and asked him to job with the idea that they'd build to a rematch at a bigger show in Manchester several months down the road. According to McMahon, Bulldog was the only Hart Foundation member that Shawn would work with.

 

However, this was never the actual plan. The WWF intentionally breached Hart's contract two days later. The Bulldog job was just taking out insurance in case of an impending defection.

 

Michaels is still a dick, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bulldog was meant to win the UK match. The idea behind the booking was to show to the locker room that Shawn was really a professional, and would do business. Shawn just changed his mind at the last minute, after Davey had done a ton of press to dedicate the match to his dying sister. Davey Boy doing the job had nothing to do with Bret leaving; it happened purely because Shawn pulled a power play he was allowed to get away with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I am holding the Wrestling Observer article in my hand as I write this and it clearly states that it was McMahon's idea for Bulldog to job and it was all done in the context of the Bret Hart contract issue. Meltzer wrote the definitive piece on the whole SS '97 fiasco and so I tend to side with him on this issue.

 

That's not to say that Michaels wasn't an asshole who refused to job all time, because he was. It is just sort of a wrong time, wrong place in this instance.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Bulldog was meant to win the match against Shawn in the UK, and even dedicated the match to his dying sister, who was suffering from cancer. At the last minute, Shawn flat out refused to do the job, wasn't going to budge, and so Bulldog lost the match he dedicated to his dying sister.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to the Observer piece on Survivor Series '97, Vince approached Davey on the day of the show and asked him to job with the idea that they'd build to a rematch at a bigger show in Manchester several months down the road. According to McMahon, Bulldog was the only Hart Foundation member that Shawn would work with.

 

However, this was never the actual plan. The WWF intentionally breached Hart's contract two days later. The Bulldog job was just taking out insurance in case of an impending defection.

 

Michaels is still a dick, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bulldog was meant to win the UK match. The idea behind the booking was to show to the locker room that Shawn was really a professional, and would do business. Shawn just changed his mind at the last minute, after Davey had done a ton of press to dedicate the match to his dying sister. Davey Boy doing the job had nothing to do with Bret leaving; it happened purely because Shawn pulled a power play he was allowed to get away with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I am holding the Wrestling Observer article in my hand as I write this and it clearly states that it was McMahon's idea for Bulldog to job and it was all done in the context of the Bret Hart contract issue. Meltzer wrote the definitive piece on the whole SS '97 fiasco and so I tend to side with him on this issue.

 

That's not to say that Michaels wasn't an asshole who refused to job all time, because he was. It is just sort of a wrong time, wrong place in this instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might want to check out Observers written at a later date. DBS was meant to win the match, to show to the locker room that Shawn was a professional. Shawn pulled a power play at the last minute, refused to do the job, and hence we got what went down.

[Jericholic82 0]

Regarding the Bulldog issue, its Vince who makes the final decisions. If he wanted he could have just pulled Shawn out of the match and inserted Hunter, and if that didnt work insert some random opponent. He did not have to listen to Shawn. I mean its not like k this was a worldwide big PPV event. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just an insurance policy incase of defection after they told Bret to get the "F" out .

 

Not that I believe Shawn is totally above throwing a tantrum, cuz I can see that happening and clearly that would be pretty horrible of him to do to Davey.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Hunter was already wrestling Dude Love. The main event was promoted as DBS v Shawn, and to make a last minute change would have pisssed the crowd off, because they wanted to see DBS beat up Shawn. Yes, Vince has the final say, and he should have shown some backbone and forced Shawn to do the job, because Shawn had no actual contractual right to refuse to do the job. Nevertheless, it remains that Shawn was meant to do the job, and had apparently agreed to do so until flat out refusing at the last minute.

 

It was no 'insurance policy', either.

[Jericholic82 0]

Thanks for the info. I have never seen the show so obviously didnt know the undercard.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I'm thinking that everybody is right in this instance, seeing that:

 

a. Shawn was Vince's right-hand man and was in his ear regarding all issues at this time

 

b. Shawn had flat out refused to do any jobs in the territory

 

I'm just saying that the way Meltzer's timeline of events reads, it was his (McMahon's) decision to have Bulldog lose and it was done just in case he decided to bail after the Bret Hart thing.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I'm thinking that everybody is right in this instance, seeing that:

 

a. Shawn was Vince's right-hand man and was in his ear regarding all issues at this time

 

b. Shawn had flat out refused to do any jobs in the territory

 

I'm just saying that the way Meltzer's timeline of events reads, it was his (McMahon's) decision to have Bulldog lose and it was done just in case he decided to bail after the Bret Hart thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not everybody is ultimately right.

 

Shawn was in Vince's ear, but his statement that he was refusing to do jobs for anyone came after ONO, in early and late October, and that's stated in the Montreal issue, which you apparently have in your hands.

 

You may read the timeline of events as Vince's decision on Bulldog jobbing having something to do with Bret, but that is simply not the case. As I have stated repeatedly, and as Meltzer himself says in numerous Observers, Shawn was meant to put Bulldog over at ONO to show the locker room that he was a professional, but Shawn refused to do so at the last minute, hence the change in plans.

 

For someone who claims to have the Montreal issue in his hands, you don't seem to be reading it that hard, because most of this is stated in that very issue, with the rest of it detailed in later issues.

[cawthon777 0]

I'm just saying that the way Meltzer's timeline of events reads, it was his (McMahon's) decision to have Bulldog lose and it was done just in case he decided to bail after the Bret Hart thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I really don't think so. Bulldog surprised quite a few people by paying Vince the remainder of his contract so that he could leave for WCW. I believe it was around $100,000.

[Jericholic82 0]

We probably should stop speculating because no one knows for sure except those involved. And Bret has been so bitchy due to his mistreatment that he has never been completely honest about everything IMO.

[what 0]

We probably should stop speculating because no one knows for sure except those involved. And Bret has been so bitchy due to his mistreatment that he has never been completely honest about everything IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not speculation. HTQ's story is widely known as the correct version of what happened.

[Jericholic82 0]

Well I was unaware of that.

 

I suck!

[King Cucaracha 0]

Obviously the powerplay by Michaels was dickish, but I don't see the huge uproar over Bulldog losing a match he dedicated to someone. People have dedicated matches to others before and lost.

 

CM Punk lost a match he dedicated to Chris Candido, Maff had the match for the title with Joe that he dedicated to his dad, Bret dedicated the match he lost to Hakushi to his mom (who was alive, obviously, so maybe that one doesn't count so much).

[Guest news_gimmick]

Wow, I do remember this episode of Raw, but I haven't watched it in years. I definately want to take some time and watch it, the memories will definatley hit me like a brick wall.

 

 

Tom

 

EDIT: And man, after reading this thread about all the politics and drama that were occuring around this time, it really is no wonder that Triple H became what he is today. Hanging with Shawn at this time, buddying up to Vince, learning how to get his way with him, its no wonder that Hunter became what he is and is where he is at today. But I guess the entire clique was very influential on him as well. Just an observation I got from the thread.