Is Shawn Michaels this generation's Ric Flair?

[The Mandarin 0]

Shawn is everything Ric was in the ring and then a lot more. Even in his prime, could Flair have a match as good against 52 year old Hogan?

 

No, because Flair couldn't do three rotations after being hit with the big boot.

 

I think Michaels would be completely lost in the ring with Harley Race and Dory Funk. He's more of a showman than a wrestler.

 

Not to say Michaels can't carry a good match, but I think Flair tops him in that category, and just about everything else (except for bumping and theatrics).

 

However, I think Steve Austin narrowly tops them both as the best total package performer of all time, but let's not even get into that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I think both are overrated, but Michaels far more so. He may be the most overrated wrestler of the modern age.

[Guest JMA]

I think both are overrated, but Michaels far more so. He may be the most overrated wrestler of the modern age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds about right.

[Guest Brian]

You people who say Shawn's ringwork wasn't at the level of Flair's are nuts. If we're talking about televised + pay-per-view great matches, which really are the only ones that count

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're only saying that because Michaels half-assed so many house shows, or didn't bother showing up.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

You people who say Shawn's ringwork wasn't at the level of Flair's are nuts. If we're talking about televised + pay-per-view great matches, which really are the only ones that count

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're only saying that because Michaels half-assed so many house shows, or didn't bother showing up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flair fully-assed all his house shows. I've got the tape to prove it.

[The Mandarin 0]

You people who say Shawn's ringwork wasn't at the level of Flair's are nuts. If we're talking about televised + pay-per-view great matches, which really are the only ones that count

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're only saying that because Michaels half-assed so many house shows, or didn't bother showing up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flair fully-assed all his house shows. I've got the tape to prove it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haha, at first I was in disagreement and then I got it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Austin is an aweful comparison to Flair because Flair was on top for 13 years, Austin was for 3 or 4. Plus Flair best work in-ring was as champ, Austin was all before. Despite what retards on here say, he was far too hurt when he was champ. And Austin as a singles heel was marginal at best.

 

Austin = Hogan

Flair = HBK

[Guest Rrrsh]

I think both are overrated, but Michaels far more so. He may be the most overrated wrestler of the modern age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Try underrated. No one has had as many 4* matches wIth diffrent guys, in diffrent roles and in diffrent matches.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I think both are overrated, but Michaels far more so. He may be the most overrated wrestler of the modern age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to disagree, that honor clearly goes to Kurt Angle

 

I don't know about HBK. Flair was certainly overrated by both workrate fans and others for many years, and now people are starting to realize he really wasn't an elite in-ring worker. I don't think HBK's ever been generally looked at as a super great worker by those who are workrate fans. Other than one's who were also fanboys of course. And overall, I'd say it's more ridiculous to claim Flair is THE best in-ring worker of all time compared to saying that HBK is ONE of the best of all time. But that's just me.

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

I definitely feel that both Flair and Michaels are tremendous workers. I personally think that Michaels is one of the greatest of all time. That seems to be the opinion of most internet journalists such as Meltzer and Keller and wrestlers/announcers, such as Kurt Angle, Ric Flair, and Jim Ross as well. Not saying that makes it fact but I certainly value their opinions. He is definitely underrated IMO like Rrrsh said here on the Smart Marks. I wonder if HBK was a darling backstage his whole career if Smarks on this board would view him in a better light. The man has had so many **** matches and helped revolutionize the wrestling style and paved the way for so much such as with his two ladder matches. A great deal of independent workers during the 90's were influenced by his style.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

If HBK was a darling backstage I don't think he would have gotten the push he did and I don't think he would have had the career he did.

[pochorenella 0]

Where was that classic Shawn/Hennig match?  All I remember is a couple of decent matches when Shawn was with the Rockers and a lousy match at Summerslam 1993.  Certainly nothing as good as the Flair/Hennig Loser Leaves Town Match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree about Shawn/Hennig, unless there was some other match I haven't seen. The Flair/Hennig match on RAW is better. If you're talking about opponents in common, though, then I could also ask you about what supposedly classic Taker/Flair match. If it's the WMX-8 one, it's hardly a classic, and Shawn had waaay better matches with Taker, including HIAC.

 

Opponents in common could be a good way to gauge their abilities but there's really not that many. The Flair/Michaels comparison is justified given the body of work, the quality/quantity/diversity of opponents, and the years of work. Not to say I agree completely with it, even if Shawn is my favorite, but is not an insulting comparison as many would think it is.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Well, I'm sure HHH considers himself this era's Flair.

 

 

Steve Austin did not have a long enough stay on top to be compared to Flair. And he wasn't that great after all the injuries.

 

Interestingly enough, Austin has wrestled Bret in some of his best matches, and yet Austin thinks Flair is the greatest of all time. I'm sorry but you have to value that thought over what anybody on here says.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but HBK had PWI's Match of the Year for 4 years straight from 93-97, some people think 1996 wrestling wise Shawn may have been the best worker in America.

 

If HBK wrestles for another 5-6 years, he may be able to put together a catalogue of quality matches that few can touch. Also HBK basically took 4 years off and still came back pretty damn good. If he didn't' get injured and had kept wrestling I suspect his catalogue would already be among the best ever. As is, as far as WWF history goes I definetly think he has the resume to say that he's up there among the best of all time. And Flair himself has said that HBK is one of the all time greats.

[pochorenella 0]

Well, it seems sometimes we don't really give much value to the WRESTLERS opinions. Case in point: Everybody and their grandmother here at TSM adores Bret Hart. Yet, when he says the WMXII match is one of his best/favorites ever most people say he's out of his mind, since "we" think is a poor match (I like it, BTW.)

Another example: Kurt Angle says his two best matches ever (I even think he said two of the all-time greats) are vs. Benoit at the Rumble (I agree) and vs. HBK at ManiaXXI. I'm pretty sure the latter is the front-runner for MOTY, but I've seen TONS of people on this board disregard that particular match.

Ric Flair says Michaels is better than Hart. The smarks say he's crazy/jealous/whatever or he's saying that 'cause he's buddy-buddy with him.

 

I'm not saying we should take their opinions at face value or that we shouldn't have our own. Just that we need to value theirs a bit more since they are the ones actually in the ring doing all the work.

[Dandy 0]

Okay, my take on this is that Flair was a great performer, Michaels was/is a great performer, and Austin was a great performer.

 

Michaels has tremendous matches out the wazoo, but that doesn't mean he is a better "wrestler" than Bret Hart. Flair no doubt thinks Michaels is better than Hart, but he doesn't like Hart and is probably taking into account how Michaels puts on a great performance during his matches. Flair had tons of great matches, but it was his persona that drew the fans in. It was ingrained in our heads that Flair was the greatest. Flair did a lot of comedy spots, and his routine became so famous that they were cheered and put on a pedestal.

 

Bret Hart was a great wrestler. He also had tons of great matches, but he didn't do the high-flying, overselling performances that Michaels did, or the comedy spots/rely on your persona and cheating at all times performances that Flair did. He went out there and put on scientific wrestling matches that had tremendous psychology.

 

All of these wrestlers should be listed in a greatest of all time category, but for various different reasons. It just depends on what flavor of Kool-Aid you prefer.

 

 

Oh, and comparing Flair and Michaels through the same opponents is not exactly fair and true, because they were at different stages of their careers during those matches.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I really don't get the longevity argument for Austin. Sure, it was shorter than Flair, and then part I can understand, but to go on and talk about Shawn Michaels isn't accurate either.

 

Steve Austin's peak was from late 1996 (when he started the Bret Hart feud), and he was pretty much on top all the way until his walkout in 2002. He had a few months off due to injury in 2000.

 

But Shawn's peak was from the very end of 1994 (when they were building towards the Rumble and the Diesel feud) up to his injury in early 1998. He also had significant time off in 1997 for various reasons.

 

When all is said and done, Austin was on top longer then Shawn was. So if you say that Austin can't be the heir to Flair because of injuries, the same is true for Michaels too.

 

And I do think Shawn/Angle is Angle's second-best singles match ever, so I agree with him. He did have a better match than that at No Mercy 2002, but that was teaming with Benoit.

 

Bret's completely off the mark though. It isn't even the best match the two of them had together.

[Dandy 0]

Bret's pick is most likely a combination of the following: it was a lot of mat wrestling, it went 60 minutes without a pinfall, and it was at Wrestlemania. Bret probably knows he has given better performances, but he is probably salivating over the psychology and mat work.

 

It could be a moot point, however, as I believe he now lists the Benoit match in KC as his favorite, due to the wrestling and the emotional value.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I really don't get the longevity argument for Austin.  Sure, it was shorter than Flair, and then part I can understand, but to go on and talk about Shawn Michaels isn't accurate either.

 

Steve Austin's peak was from late 1996 (when he started the Bret Hart feud), and he was pretty much on top all the way until his walkout in 2002.  He had a few months off due to injury in 2000.

 

But Shawn's peak was from the very end of 1994 (when they were building towards the Rumble and the Diesel feud) up to his injury in early 1998.  He also had significant time off in 1997 for various reasons.

 

When all is said and done, Austin was on top longer then Shawn was.  So if you say that Austin can't be the heir to Flair because of injuries, the same is true for Michaels too.

 

And I do think Shawn/Angle is Angle's second-best singles match ever, so I agree with him.  He did have a better match than that at No Mercy 2002, but that was teaming with Benoit.

 

Bret's completely off the mark though.  It isn't even the best match the two of them had together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your forgetting is return to the comapny. You cant Main Event WM XX and not be "on top". Plus, any down time from Summerslam 02 till now where Shawn would face a upstart Randy Orton has to count if your gonna say that Austin was "on top" in 97. Because he was not. He was over, but never in the Mian Event. That, and he was not on Top in any part of 02.

 

So, if we are being generous, Austin gets 5 and a half years. Shanw gets 6 and a half (and counting).

 

And if we are counting workrate, Austin had far to many gaps in great matches because of the Russo style of booking. After Foley's over teh Edge untill 01, Austin had slim to none in great matches. Austins great in-ring time on top came in 2 1 year gaps. Shawn, like Flair and Bret for that matter, always had great matches, no matter what the role.

[Dark Age 0]

Austin's had better matches than Shawn. That's it, really.

[deancoles 0]

Plus, any down time from Summerslam 02 till now where Shawn would face a upstart Randy Orton has to count if your gonna say that Austin was "on top" in 97. Because he was not. He was over, but never in the Main Event.

Austin main evented 4 ppvs before the neck injury(Feb,April,May and July IYH) and was in high profile matches at Royal Rumble,Wrestlemania,King of the Ring,Summerslam and Survivor Series.

[Guest MikeSC]

Where was that classic Shawn/Hennig match?  All I remember is a couple of decent matches when Shawn was with the Rockers and a lousy match at Summerslam 1993.  Certainly nothing as good as the Flair/Hennig Loser Leaves Town Match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree about Shawn/Hennig, unless there was some other match I haven't seen. The Flair/Hennig match on RAW is better. If you're talking about opponents in common, though, then I could also ask you about what supposedly classic Taker/Flair match. If it's the WMX-8 one, it's hardly a classic, and Shawn had waaay better matches with Taker, including HIAC.

 

Opponents in common could be a good way to gauge their abilities but there's really not that many. The Flair/Michaels comparison is justified given the body of work, the quality/quantity/diversity of opponents, and the years of work. Not to say I agree completely with it, even if Shawn is my favorite, but is not an insulting comparison as many would think it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where were the good Shawn v Hennig matches? I have tapes of their house show matches (the ones Shawn infamously "half-assed") and they were excellent. Better than their match on PPV.

 

BTW, same goes for Michaels v Jannety matches.

  Austin's had better matches than Shawn. That's it, really.

I can't really disagree any more than I do about this. I loved Austin --- but Michaels had more entertaining matches.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Your forgetting is return to the comapny. You cant Main Event WM XX and not be "on top". Plus, any down time from Summerslam 02 till now where Shawn would face a upstart Randy Orton has to count if your gonna say that Austin was "on top" in 97. Because he was not. He was over, but never in the Mian Event. That, and he was not on Top in any part of 02.

 

Shawn was an afterthought in the Wrestlemania feud. The real issue was Benoit/HHH and everybody knew it. That's why Shawn was getting booed all throughout that match. The only time Shawn has been on top since he's come back was for a month between Backlash and Badd Blood 2004 and his title reign in 2002.

 

Meanwhile, Austin in 1997 won the Royal Rumble, and also main-evented Final Four, A Cold Day in Hell & Canadian Stampede. He was also in the biggest feud in the company from the beginning of the year all the way to Canadian Stampede, including an almost co-main event at Wrestlemania and certainly the most interesting thing on that show by far. After the injury at Summerslam he was still heavily promoted with the 'Who will he stun this week?' thing leading up to Vince McMahon. He had a better year in 1997 than Shawn did.

 

Shawn since 2002 has been inconsistent at best, missing a lot of time with injuries every year and not even wrestling a full-time schedule until 2004.

 

Austin's Top 10 matches.

 

1) vs. Bret Hart, Wrestlemania XIII

2) vs. Bret Hart, Survivor Series 1996

3) The Dangerous Alliance vs. Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Nikita Koloff, Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes, WrestleWar 1992

4) vs. The Rock, Wrestlemania X-7

5) vs. Chris Benoit, Edmonton Smackdown 2001

6) vs. Kurt Angle, Summerslam 2001

7) Team USA vs. The Hart Foundation, Canadian Stampede 1997

8) w/ HHH vs. Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit, RAW 2001

9) w/ Brian Pillman vs. Ric Flair & Arn Anderson, Clash of the Champions XXIII

10) vs. Dude Love, Over the Edge 1998

 

Shawn's Top 10 matches

 

1) vs. Razor Ramon, Wrestlemania X

2) vs. Jeff Jarrett, IYH 2

3) vs. Mankind, Mind Games

4) vs. HHH vs. Chris Benoit, Wrestlemania XX

5) vs. Undertaker, Badd Blood 1997

6) w/ Steve Austin vs. British Bulldog & Owen Hart, RAW 1997

7) vs. Kurt Angle, Wrestlemania XXI

8) vs. Razor Ramon, Summerslam 1995

9) vs. Diesel, Good Friends, Better Enemies

10) vs. Bret Hart, Survivor Series 1992

 

Austin's list is much better than Shawn's list. Shawn's #6 which also includes Austin, doesn't even get onto Austin's top ten by my count.

[Guest Coffey]

Are those matches supposed to be in order!?

[Sass 0]

The overrated workers lineage line goes like this:

 

1970's: Ray Stevens

1980's: Ric Flair

1990's: Shawn Michaels or Sabu

2000's: Kurt Angle

 

Not a lot these guy's past matches (or current in some cases) hold up well. Their selling was either botched too badly and broke the illusion of pain or else they were too repetitive with signature spots (which begs the question, why didn't someone just scount them ahead of time and murder them right then and there?).

 

In-ring creativity is a lacking trait amongst many of the "great" workers.

 

So, yes, Michaels is this generation's Flair, really. What's ironic about this comparison is how backstage politics worked for both guys: Flair the victim, Michaels the victimizer. Flair's career will be looked at more fondly down the road though compared to Michaels who squandered much of his while Ric's always looked like it was in jeporady at one point or another.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

 

Austin's Top 10 matches.

 

1) vs. Bret Hart, Wrestlemania XIII

2) vs. Bret Hart, Survivor Series 1996

3) The Dangerous Alliance vs. Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Nikita Koloff, Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes, WrestleWar 1992

4) vs. The Rock, Wrestlemania X-7

5) vs. Chris Benoit, Edmonton Smackdown 2001

6) vs. Kurt Angle, Summerslam 2001

7) Team USA vs. The Hart Foundation, Canadian Stampede 1997

8) w/ HHH vs. Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit, RAW 2001

9) w/ Brian Pillman vs. Ric Flair & Arn Anderson, Clash of the Champions XXIII

10) vs. Dude Love, Over the Edge 1998

 

Shawn's Top 10 matches

 

1) vs. Razor Ramon, Wrestlemania X

2) vs. Jeff Jarrett, IYH 2

3) vs. Mankind, Mind Games

4) vs. HHH vs. Chris Benoit, Wrestlemania XX

5) vs. Undertaker, Badd Blood 1997

6) w/ Steve Austin vs. British Bulldog & Owen Hart, RAW 1997

7) vs. Kurt Angle, Wrestlemania XXI

8) vs. Razor Ramon, Summerslam 1995

9) vs. Diesel, Good Friends, Better Enemies

10) vs. Bret Hart, Survivor Series 1992

 

Austin's list is much better than Shawn's list. Shawn's #6 which also includes Austin, doesn't even get onto Austin's top ten by my count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you kind of botched HBK's top 10. Here's what I think more people would go with-

 

1. vs Razor Ramon WM10 (Groundbreaking Match)

2. vs Mankind Mind Games

3. vs Undertaker BB (Another Groundbreaking match)

4. vs Bret Hart WM 12 (Brets favorite match and very underrated on this board) or SS 92

5. vs Kurt Angle WM 21

6. HBK/Diesel vs Razor/1-2-3 Kid from Action Zone 94

7. vs Marty Jannetty Raw 93

8. vs Diesel Good Friends Better Enemies or WM 11

9 vs Jeff Jarret In your House 2

10. vs Austin King of the Ring 97 or Wrestlemania 14

 

Austins best matches are with Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle. HBK had classic matches with guys like Diesel, Undertaker, and still had the versatility to wrestle speedy guys like Jannetty/Angle/Jarret. Not that the top 10 means anything, I'm willing to bet HBK has more quality matches over his career than Austin and with a vast more different list of wrestlers. Remember HBK pulled good matches out of everybody, guys like Sid, Diesel, Bulldog.

 

I'm betting if you go further and make a list of each wrestlers top 25 matches, HBKs list would destroy Austins.

[Guest JMA]

1990's: Shawn Michaels or Sabu

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say HBK wins that contest. Only the most hardcore Sabu fans would call him a great worker. Michaels, on the other hand, is rated too highly by people who even aren't huge fans of his. I really enjoy his work myself, but he's not the best as some fans will claim.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

1990's: Shawn Michaels or Sabu

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say HBK wins that contest. Only the most hardcore Sabu fans would call him a great worker. Michaels, on the other hand, is rated too highly by people who even aren't huge fans of his. I really enjoy his work myself, but he's not the best as some fans will claim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe you've been living under a rock, but HBK is incredibly underrated on this board.

[Guest JMA]

Austin's had better matches than Shawn. That's it, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a nutshell.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Austin's had better matches than Shawn. That's it, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a nutshell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Prove it

[Guest JMA]

You people who say Shawn's ringwork wasn't at the level of Flair's are nuts. If we're talking about televised + pay-per-view great matches, which really are the only ones that count

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're only saying that because Michaels half-assed so many house shows, or didn't bother showing up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flair fully-assed all his house shows. I've got the tape to prove it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haha, at first I was in disagreement and then I got it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here. Ew.