"He needs to spend more time in OVW...."

[Guest Fishyswa]

Something I don't get, OVW hasn't produced anything worthwhile since the last crop(Lesnar, Benjamin, Batista, Cena, Orton), and even most of them aren't exactly the sharpest of ring generals.

 

So how come every time someone comes up and seems a bit unpolished, the first thing anyone says is "he should of spent more time in OVW"? Like the time they spent there did anything to begin with? We've seen some guys come up after a year of being down there, and there not really ahead of the pack in anyway.

 

So why go back? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to get TV experience as opposed to more experience that you already have? If the time they spent didn't do it who's to say going back again will?

 

I just don't get the mentality that they went through OVW, came up lacking, and should go back to OVW. Perhaps OVW is the problem to begin with.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

Well Rob Conway and Nick Dinsmore were in OVW for a long time and they CAN be in ring generals but they don't get the chance. Especially Dinsmore.

[Just John 0]

I agree to some extent. I think it's sort of like the whole debate about whether the legal driving age should be pushed back to 18 because kids under 18 have a much higher risk of accident... It's not the age, it's the fact that driving is a new concept for most teens and if you push the age back, you'll just see accident numbers go up for 18 year olds. Similarly, it doesn't matter how long anyone spends in OVW, it's still a huge change from OVW to mainstream WWE. Yeah, the new guys will make mistakes, but it's not because of the timing of their call-up, it's simply the dramatic change between the two atmospheres.

 

The real problem lies in new guys getting too big of a push. Instead of getting time to hone their skills in the midcard, they get shoved into upper midcard or main event runs. However, that's the fault of the writers. They need to learn how to build someone up slowly and give them time to acclimate to their new setting.

[Dangerous A 0]

Well Rob Conway and Nick Dinsmore were in OVW for a long time and they CAN be in ring generals but they don't get the chance. Especially Dinsmore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's because they don't have the height and physique that Vince is looking for. He will give a huge bodybuilding green machine a push to the moon before taking a somewhat fit looking person and building a promotion around them. The only time that ever happened was when Vince was fixing to go to jail for steroid distribution.

[Guest Fishyswa]

^Don't blame him though, you can sell a guy who can't do shit on his look alone, you can't sell a guy who can do some shit on the some shit he can do.

 

"The real problem lies in new guys getting too big of a push. Instead of getting time to hone their skills in the midcard, they get shoved into upper midcard or main event runs. However, that's the fault of the writers. They need to learn how to build someone up slowly and give them time to acclimate to their new setting."

 

This is what I think is the real problems, they just don't know how to build solid low-level fueds and angles anymore. I mean even some comedy skits would do wonders for a guy like Tajiri or Richards, and it'd give them some character to use in those throw-away Raw and Heat matches. Instead they just do throw-aways assuming everyone who watches knows who these guys are and will care just because the names familiar.

 

Look at a character, think of something to do, figure out how it can connect to another character and wala, you have a program. It's like these guys focus on 6-7 people and spend 5 minutes putting together consolation matches for everyone else.

[Dangerous A 0]

^Don't blame him though, you can sell a guy who can't do shit on his look alone, you can't sell a guy who can do some shit on the some shit he can do.

 

 

What do you mean don't blame him though? He's the one calling guys up too early. Yes, you have a point that it's easier to promote guys who have the look as opposed to more skilled guys who aren't as cosmetic or charismatically appealing, but therein lies the challenge. If your big guys aren't ready, but your workers who aren't as chemically enhanced are, then push and promote the workers properly until the big guys are actually ready. God forbid Vince actually wait until a prospect is ready for the big time until it's time to bring him up.

 

It's Vince's call, so he gets the blame.

[Guest Fishyswa]

They don't have to be ready though, you put someone in there with 'the look', have him do nothing but a clothesline, powerbomb and some other cool move, he can get over and that and posing and shit.

 

As long as there ready for the basic requirements of the job like traveling, the toll it takes on the body, understanding the basics of producing the show, then why not? Because you don't know ho well he'll handle a tight chain sequence? That's something you can avoid.

[2GOLD 0]

Guys cannot get over if they have no clue how to make their moves work and have zero charisma. Which is what you usually get calling up the big morons. People forget guys like Brock, Cena, Batista and the best crop spent a good amount of time in OVW to get ready. But of course once they come up, they are told to eliminate 90% of the stuff they learned because they don't want to see guys hurt.

 

But THEN Vince has the brillant plan of firing everyone and just calling up the steriod monkeys to wrestle. You bring up someone who is green as fuck, then a powerbomb, clothesline and all those moves become deadly...and not in the looked brutal way but in the break bones of person kind of way.

 

OVW isn't the problem, they train these guys to take bumps and execute moves without causing injury. If you call up someone before they are ready, they cannot take bumps, they cannot sell a move, and they cannot hit a move to the maximum safety of their opponent. THAT is why guys are in OVW, not to build a character which Vince and the writers will ignore anyway.

 

And yes, some of these guys Vince has hired didn't even know the basics. And in a few weeks in OVW, they actually learned a few basics and Vince is SHOCKED when they come up and can't do shit. You can't do what you didn't learn and most of these moves take awhile to learn.

 

Guys like Cena and Benjamin have been limited to what they can do so they are still learning a new style. It's like learning a new language, you aren't going to pick it up overnight. OVW is a training group, you get lots of time in the ring to learn pacing and execution of your moves. WWE is still the majors and it's a new ballgame.

 

But yes, tons of guys could have been the next big thing if Vince had actually allowed them to learn things before throwing them into the fire. You don't see many MLB teams drafting a kid out of high school and then starting him on the MLB roster right out of spring training. What Vince does would be like a MLB team drafting a kid who has never played baseball just because he has a baseball player look and then starting him on the MLB roster after one week of Spring training.

[cabbageboy 0]

I watch OVW on and off and to be honest the style on OVW really isn't all that different from WWE. Nick Dinsmore never did a whole lot of dangerous stuff in his matches...it's just that he's now hampered with the stupid Eugene gimmick and can't wrestle a normal match.

 

The one main example of someone in OVW doing something really cool was Brock doing the Shooting Star Press, which I saw in person. My jaw dropped. Of course, then he fucked up at WM doing the move and didn't do it again (not that I blame him).

 

I think the most important aspect these guys need to learn is pacing. Keep things moving. Going out and doing headlocks is just tedious and boring, doing nothing but armbars is tedious. I've said that these guys need to sit down and watch hours of Steamboat footage. Nothing all that state of the art nowdays but there's no boring resting, everything is crisp, and most things have a purpose.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

Burchill and Ken Kennedy btw?

 

Oh and Tyson Tomko's long time at OVW helped him al lot

[King Cucaracha 0]

"He needs more time in OVW" = "This guy sucks, get him the hell off of my TV before I'm forced to change the channel".

 

They don't have to be ready though, you put someone in there with 'the look', have him do nothing but a clothesline, powerbomb and some other cool move, he can get over and that and posing and shit.

 

Yes, because it's sure worked for The Masterpiece, eh? And it sure didn't take Batista two and a half years to really get over.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

.......KENNEDY!

[King Cucaracha 0]

Ooh, for the record, Kennedy has been working the indy circuit for at least a couple of years and was a decent enough worker before going to OVW. Ditto Burchill, who's been working the FWA in England for the past year or so.

[Guest Fishyswa]

Burchill and Kennedy had time under there belt before coming to OVW.

 

"Yes, because it's sure worked for The Masterpiece, eh?"

 

Yeah, it has.

 

"And it sure didn't take Batista two and a half years to really get over."

 

Yeah and that had nothing to do with booking right?

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

It's worked so well for Chris Masters that people didn't care at all about him until he was put into programs involving Flair (who is ALWAYS over EVERYWHERE he goes just because of how long he's been in the industry) and Shawn Michaels (who is one of Vince's golden boys). And when the program with Michaels is done (if it isn't already)? Yeah, he's going back to being pretty unover.

 

Fuck, you could stick a monkey in the ring with Flair and the fans would care about the monkey.

 

Wait...a wrestling monkey...hrmmmm...

[Guest Fishyswa]

He was getting booed when he was throwing around jobbers.

 

Heels don't get over, they get disliked and hopefully hated. Getting over describes winning people over or manipulating them.

[Toxxic 0]

Batista first appeared as Deacon Batista on Smackdown, and no-one gave a shit about his spinebusters/clotheslines/powerbombs etc, or his look. Give him a couple of years of actually learning how to work a huge crowd, of how and when to do the moves, of how and when the face should get beaten down and then make his comeback, of developing a character that isn't just 'HULK SMASH!'... THEN he gets over.

 

Likewise, Chris Masters. He's a fairly impressive physical specimen, but he's getting X-Pac heat, 'fuck off my tv/out of the ring that I've paid to see' heat. He's not a 'hate me' heel, he's a 'please god not this guy again' waste of space. Plus, not only can he not get over despite never losing a singles match before Michaels (so not even good... well, strong booking, probably not good) help him, but he's not just green in the ring, he injures other workers.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Basically, I think guys aren't going to get over if they expose the business. Brock Lesnar had a fucking awesome look, but also knew his way around the ring. Even if he hadn't been able to throw half the roster around like rag dolls, he could participate in a decent wrestling match because he had good timing, his moves looked realistic, his selling (such as he was called on to do, he was a monster after all) was good, the psychology was fairly decent... that sort of thing.

 

This is why women's matches are generally such duds for the live crowd. Sure, the males may want to get into Trish's pants, but if she's got people like Ashley and Torrie in there with her who can't even do/take an Irish whip correctly, it becomes impossible to suspend disbelief and the focus turns to how bad they are at pretending to wrestle. The same with guys like Masters (to a lesser degree, I'll admit). You stop remembering that you're meant to hate him because he's arrogant and instead concentrate on the fact that he's shit at his job.

[Guest Fishyswa]

"Batista first appeared as Deacon Batista on Smackdown, and no-one gave a shit about his spinebusters/clotheslines/powerbombs etc, or his look. Give him a couple of years of actually learning how to work a huge crowd, of how and when to do the moves, of how and when the face should get beaten down and then make his comeback, of developing a character that isn't just 'HULK SMASH!'... THEN he gets over."

 

Did he even have more than 2 matches as Deacon Batista? No.

 

Once the character was developed, people bought the simple moveset stuff. If you think he has a great grasp of pacing and building comebacks, I feel bad for you. Batista's greatest strengths have nothing to do with putting together a great wrestling match, and everything to do with his look and physique.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Batista first appeared as Deacon Batista on Smackdown, and no-one gave a shit about his spinebusters/clotheslines/powerbombs etc, or his look.

 

Likewise, Chris Masters. He's a fairly impressive physical specimen, but he's getting X-Pac heat, 'fuck off my tv/out of the ring that I've paid to see' heat. He's not a 'hate me' heel, he's a 'please god not this guy again' waste of space. Plus, not only can he not get over despite never losing a singles match (so not even good... well, strong booking, probably not good) help him, but he's not just green in the ring, he injures other workers.

 

Re: Deacon Batista, could it have anything to do with the fact he was saddled with a bad gimmick in the first place?

 

Well outside Steven Richards, I don't recall Masters injuring anyone else.

 

The rest I agree with.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

This thread is funny for all the wrong reasons. Congratulations are in order.

[Toxxic 0]

I didn't say 'great'. I meant 'better'.

 

But no, i don't think it's about his look and physique. That's a part of it, for sure, but he only started to get over when he took on a more pronounced character, first of the possibly-disloyal lackey and then of the uber-cool but still prone-to-violence face. And part of that was him expressing himself in the ring better.

 

His look hasn't changed. His in-ring work has, to some extent. His mic work has to an ENORMOUS extent.

 

As for everything else, see the extensive edit to my post above.

[Toxxic 0]

Re: Deacon Batista, could it have anything to do with the fact he was saddled with a bad gimmick in the first place?

 

Well outside Steven Richards, I don't recall Masters injuring anyone else.

 

The rest I agree with.

 

So Deacon Batista had a bad gimmick, which meant that his physique and look wasn't enough to get him over. It took until he got a better gimmick that allowed more expression in the ring and on the mic to get him over.

 

I'll agree Masters didn't injure anyone except Stevie. He did do it twice though.

[Guest Fishyswa]

What was better? How does he present Batista better than he presented Deacon Batista? One gimmick was low-card, uneventful and completely bland, the other is main-event, biggest slot on the show and engulfed in the hottest angle of the year.

 

So do tell how the difference was him.

 

And thanks for the monster contribution HTQ, not sure where this thread would be without you.....

[Guest Fishyswa]

Oh and has anyone considered, especially with how he gets injured, that Richards might just be injury prone? The Heidi-spot was nothing more than an ugly back bump, the Masters stuff was him taking a shot to the face, isn't it possible that the guy is just more likely to break than others?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Even if Stevie Richards is injury-prone it is the other wrestlers' jobs to make sure that they work safely as to prevent an injury. Novel concept, I know!

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Even if Stevie Richards is injury-prone it is the other wrestlers' jobs to make sure that they work safely as to prevent an injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But that doesn't matter. Heidenreich can do clotheslines, so basic training isn't important.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Not to mention his Rock-like mic skills as showcased by his poetry readings.

[Guest Fishyswa]

Who was excusing Hiedi's lack of talent? He hasn't been used as a generic big man when it comes to character so he's irrelevant. But thanks again HTQ for really making this thread worthwhile.

 

The point is these guys went through the OVW system, if they weren't ready when they came up, then the system failed.

[Guest]

If they weren't ready, they should have never been called up. How hard is that to understand?

[Guest Fishyswa]

Why aren't they ready though? They went through OVW, it was agreed they were ready, if a guy at OVW professes a guy is by no means ready, why would they just say "oh you've seen him work the entire time he's been here so I'll say fuck you and call him up anyway"? They wouldn't. The problem has to be OVW itself, so if they're not hurting business, like all those "generic hosses" are said to be doing, wouldn't it be more beneficial to have them get actual WWE experience? Especially during a transitional phase like right now where they survive on a core audience that isn't going anywhere?