Ring of Honor 9.24.05 Results

[Youth N Asia 0]

I think Strong could come out of this...uh, strong, if they have him draw with Dragon in his title shot, and then he can lose cleanly in a lengthy match next time.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

Ring of Honor can't continually have World title feuds come down to a series of matches with the challenger trying to figure out how to beat the champion. It got old with Homicide/Samoa Joe, got ridiculous with C.M. Punk/Samoa Joe, and American Dragon/Roderick Strong probably won't be any better. I know Ring of Honor has much better wrestling than WWE, but don't try and say they know how to push talent when they seemingly use the same formula every time.

[JHawk 0]

Ring of Honor can't continually have World title feuds come down to a series of matches with the challenger trying to figure out how to beat the champion.  It got old with Homicide/Samoa Joe, got ridiculous with C.M. Punk/Samoa Joe, and American Dragon/Roderick Strong probably won't be any better.  I know Ring of Honor has much better wrestling than WWE, but don't try and say they know how to push talent when they seemingly use the same formula every time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Got ridiculous with CM Punk and Samoa Joe?

 

The beauty of the Punk-Joe feud wasn't that Punk was trying to figure out Joe. It was also about whether Joe, the champion for over a year at that point, could figure out Punk.

 

The fact that we got three match of the year candidates out of that series of matches made it even better.

[Guest *KNK*]

Ring of Honor can't continually have World title feuds come down to a series of matches with the challenger trying to figure out how to beat the champion.  It got old with Homicide/Samoa Joe, got ridiculous with C.M. Punk/Samoa Joe, and American Dragon/Roderick Strong probably won't be any better.  I know Ring of Honor has much better wrestling than WWE, but don't try and say they know how to push talent when they seemingly use the same formula every time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Once again you prove you don't know anything about...well anything but specifically RING OF HONOR.

 

They do know how to push talent and they do it better then any other North American promotion because Gabe actually understands the concept of creating stars within his promotion and Roderick Strong is another example of this.

 

It's funny you compare Joe/Homicide, Punk/Joe to each other when they were completely about different things. CM Punk wasn't figuring out Samoa Joe, HE HAD FIGURED Joe out...Joe needed the clutch of a draw to survive CM Punk and that's how it was protrayed....That Joe survived, not that Punk came close.

 

In volume three, Joe had finally figured out Punk and how to get him in the choke. That's what the whole series had built into, whoever could hit their finisher before time expired would win.

 

Explain to me how a series of great matches over the title is a negative? Because it brings the value of the title up tremendously, creates a natural rivalry and most importantly, creates a great story.

 

Just like a few months ago when you made that idiotic comment about James Gibson winning the title, you prove your inability to properly understand what the intention is with ROH and it's far from a formula because 'Cide/Joe and Punk/Joe were completely different beasts.

 

There's been COUNTLESS series of matches between ROH workers, Punk/Rave, Dragon/Cide, Lethal/Low Ki, Cabana/Nigel...and that was just this year.

 

Unlike in WWE, Every match in ROH tends to mean something or leads to something that means something. It's a continuing arc of storytelling and Roderick/Dragon will be told differently from the other stories.

 

Don't get me wrong, Gabe does like to use similar elements in his stories and has doubled dipped before but you don't make criticisms of something that isn't there before It even starts.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

To me, this looks like, "Hey, AmDrag and Strong are going to have a really good match for the ROH Title? That sucks!"

 

 

 

Yeah, I hate good wrestling, too.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

It shouldn't be a surprise that JustJoe is shooting monkeys out of his ass.

[Copper Feel 0]

To me, this looks like, "Hey, AmDrag and Strong are going to have a really good match for the ROH Title? That sucks!"

 

 

 

Yeah, I hate good wrestling, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont hate good wrestling, but at the same time i fail to see how "really good matches" make up for storylines that dont benefit anyone.

 

The only way that the result of the title match can build on Strongs victory without making the Roh title any less stable, is if he gets disqualified for going crazy on Danielson with a weapon of some kind and leaves him in a bloody mess.

[Guest Fishyswa]

All of this "creating stars" talk is a little silly considering Samoa Joe is the biggest name they have and I wouldn't call him a "star".

 

Creating credible challengers, sure, good characters, sure, stars, don't think so.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

My head is going to explode.

 

Will Strong beat Dragon?

No?

Then tonights win was pointless.

 

I was way too nice, fuck context, I'm right, this booking sucks.

 

I am not getting this.

 

So a promotion shouldn't put one guy over a bunch of other top guys unless he is going to win the championship? Why?

 

It's not winning the championship that matters, it's being -in the peoples eyes- a legitimate contender for the title, that matters. Did Strong become any more of a legitimate contender after winning this match, to where people actually believe he'll go over Dragon when they wrestle? Didn't think so. A promotion shouldn't put one guy over a bunch of other top guys unless it actually does something for that one guy - this didn't.

 

 

Why can't Roderick Strong be booked as a guy who is really, really good but wasn't able to beat Danielson in their one singles bout?

 

Can't he be booked like that without going over all those guys? Completely unnecessary booking. Sloppy, even.

 

It would be one thing if they had Strong go over four guys then jobbed him out to everyone or had him lose to a relative mid carder. However, having him lose to the champion, in a match that will most likely be wrestled in the "either guy could have won" fashion, hardly makes his win pointless.

 

The _match_ could have been like that anyways. The _point_ is that every knows Dragon will win, so no one will actually BELIEVE Strong has a chance. You'd think a win like the one last night would have benefitted the guy, but it doesn't. So what was the point?

 

All losing to Danielson does is say that Roderick isn't the champion. It does nothing to state that he isn't ONE of the top guys right under Danielson or even that he couldn't beat Danielson on any other night.

 

The end-result doesn't even matter, it's _going into the match_ believing that Strong is not only "one of the top guys" it's believing that he CAN beat Dragon. When I said "Will Strong beat Dragon?" I am betting there was a uniform answer of "no". He's going into the match having already lost it.

 

You are acting as if the heirarchy in ROH (or any wrestling promotion) is one dimensional. As if there is the champion and then everyone else. That is not the case. Roderick Strong can beat four guys, position himself as one of the top 5 wrestlers in the promoion and then lose to the champ without it being pointless. Tonight's win will have still cemented him as a top 5 guy regardless of whether he beats Danielson. If Strong ends up back in the midcards losing to a bunch of random midcarders, then your point might be valid. Until then, it is not.

 

Hey, glass ceilings are cool by me if they're cool by you, bro...

 

As an aside, I should probably mention that, if I read the results right (and I think I did), one of Strong's eliminations came with the help of Daniels (Daniels hit the moonsault on Joe, Strong hit Daniels with a back breaker, and then pinned Joe), one after Aries hit Lethal with the Brainbuster, and then two on his own (vs. Cabana and Aries). It isn't like he completely squashed four of their top guys or anything.

 

You are reaching here.

 

Hey, my reaction was similar to a lot of those who read it - in particular HTQ and KNK - are they reaching too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest OSIcon]

It's not winning the championship that matters, it's being -in the peoples eyes- a legitimate contender for the title, that matters. Did Strong become any more of a legitimate contender after winning this match, to where people actually believe he'll go over Dragon when they wrestle?

 

I half agree with you here. In the end, the fans probably won't believe that Strong is going to win. That is the downfall of having a fanbase like ROH has. The fans know that ROH just had two "short-lived" champions and they know that most likely means Danielson will probably hold the championship for several months.

 

Does that mean that ROH should just throw lame duck challengers at Danielson for the first four months until people will start to believe the title can switch hands? They built up Strong NOW to be a main eventer and when the time comes for him to make a serious run at Danielson and the title, he will still have that stigma of being a amina eventer that was solified tonight. Storyline wise, last night's win makes Strong MUCH more of a threat to be Danielson. Should ROH not try to build up Strong in character because some of their fans [think they have] figured out that Danielson won't drop the championship in the first few months? It seems like that is what you are saying: That ROH fans don't think Strong will win Danielson due to non-storyline reasons, so they shouldn't try to build him up with storylines.

 

I don't agree with that. ROH is presenting Strong like a tough challenge to Danielson with in storylines. I don't think the fact that people have "non-kayfabe" reasons for seeing him as a non-challenge should present how they present him in-character. You can't mix storyline expectations (Strong convincingly won Survival of the Fittest and has had some other big matches recently, so he could very well give Danielson a run for his money) with "non-kayfabe" expectations (Danielson just won the title and after two "short" title reigns, he will probably hold it for at least a few months).

 

A promotion shouldn't put one guy over a bunch of other top guys unless it actually does something for that one guy - this didn't.

 

No....it DID do something for Strong. This is what you either don't get or won't allow yourself to get. Strong going over a bunch of top guys last night cements him as one of the top guys in ROH. It accomplished moving Strong from a mid carder being pushed to one of the legit top guys in ROH. In other words, it solidified him as a guy who can main event shows now. It isn't that hard of a concept.

 

You're problem is you are taking the idea that this win doesn't make it any more believable that Strong will beat Danielson and deciding that since it didn't accomplish that, it was worthless. You need to look at the things it did accomplish and what it was meant to accomplish.

 

Can't he be booked like that without going over all those guys? Completely unnecessary booking. Sloppy, even.

 

At the end of the day, a wrestler needs to have some wins over top caliber guys to be considered a top caliber wrestler himself. Would you disagree with that? Strong can't be portrayed as a top guy ("really, really good") without actually having some victories over other top guys. So the answer is "no"....I do not think he could be booked as a top guy just under Danielson without having some big wins under his belt.

 

The _match_ could have been like that anyways. The _point_ is that every knows Dragon will win, so no one will actually BELIEVE Strong has a chance. You'd think a win like the one last night would have benefitted the guy, but it doesn't. So what was the point?

 

Like I already said, you are stuck on the win not accomplishing (in your opinion) what YOU think it should have accomplished without looking at what it DID accomplish. The win theoretically makes him a top/main event wrestler in ROH. The win benefitted him a lot then.

 

*Cut out stuff I already responded to*

 

Hey, glass ceilings are cool by me if they're cool by you, bro...

 

And with that you've crossed the line into trolling.

 

I had to re-read what I wrote because I was pretty sure what I did write didn't implicated any sort of "glass ceiling". It was right. The best I can tell is you are saying that Strong not beating Danielson on his first try would mean that there is a "glass ceiling" in ROH. Is that right? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

If that is what you are saying, it is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board. Wrestlers never being pushed to that next level (the main events) and sticking there is what constitutes a glass ceiling. A wrestler being pushed to the top of the cards, losing one match to the champ, and still being pushed as a top guy (assuming that is what happens), is hardly a glass ceiling.

[The Mandarin 0]

Why weren't Joe and Lethal doing the double-teaming last night if Joe's going after the tag belts? Joe could have used this to show some tag offense or something.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I understand why they had Strong win Survival Of The Fittest, because it's an accolade to give him a little credibility. But it seems odd that they're wasting Strong/Danielson so soon. By putting Strong in with Danielson so soon, they're not 'damaging' him as such, but they're taking all of his momentum and cutting it off at the knees.

 

The crowd know Strong will lose. As such, what's the huge draw in Danielson/Strong? It's all very well saying 'Oh, it'll be a great match' and 'Oh, it's building to a series of matches'. And? The crowd have no real reason to fully get behind Strong because they're already 95% sure of the outcome. Coming off of SOTF, the crowd will be hotter for him than they have been before. The WORST thing they can do is put him immediately into a match where he stands literally no chance. If they go the 'he loses but he puts in a great effort' route, it won't have the same effect because that's the crowd's minimum expectation, where-as if it were for example Jimmy Jacobs going in cold and going 35 minutes with Danielson, that wouldn't be expecting and would have the shock factor. And why start a series of matches with a predictable 1st match? You just waste the 'wow, Danielson versus Strong, first big meeting~!' interest.

 

Most of the crowd know/assume Strong will eventually win the title. So why buy the predictable match when they could just wait until the ones that they don't know the outcome to?

 

I've no problem with Strong winning. But they should have held the title match off more than a month. Have Strong say he wants the shot in December and then do the match. By then, there's at least an outside chance. Hell, by then they'll probably have had 4 matches by the time New Year rolls around and Strong will have lost all his momentum.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Does that mean that ROH should just throw lame duck challengers at Danielson for the first four months until people will start to believe the title can switch hands?

 

Yes. Absolutely. Because guess what? Any challenger going up against him in those first few months will be lame-duck anyways. Why waste the guys now that you can push down the road? It's not like ROH is the kind of promotion that draws on the basis of main events and superstars - the same amount of fans will be there for Dragon vs. Dick Bumfuck next month as there would be for Dragon vs. Strong.

 

They built up Strong NOW to be a main eventer and when the time comes for him to make a serious run at Danielson and the title, he will still have that stigma of being a amina eventer that was solified tonight.

 

That's why I say delay it. Sidetrack Strong, don't feed him to Danielson now. Let him carry the momentum of last nights win and when the time is right, when the crowd is ready for Danielson to lose, THEN put Strong in there.

 

Storyline wise, last night's win makes Strong MUCH more of a threat to be Danielson. Should ROH not try to build up Strong in character because some of their fans [think they have] figured out that Danielson won't drop the championship in the first few months? It seems like that is what you are saying: That ROH fans don't think Strong will win Danielson due to non-storyline reasons, so they shouldn't try to build him up with storylines.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. "On Paper" Strong _should_ be considered a threat. But in reality -which is what matters the most- the dude isnt't. And I don't think it's just "some" of the fans, I'm pretty sure the vast majority see Dragon coming out with the win. The fans shouldn't have to force themselves to believe Strong is a contender just because the storylines say so. That's not the role of the fans, that's the role of the booker. And by positioning Strong/Dragon for next month, so early into Dragons reign, Gabe failed to do that. And worse, he's trying to overcompensate by wasting a win like last night to build Strong up. It's pointless.

 

I don't agree with that. ROH is presenting Strong like a tough challenge to Danielson with in storylines. I don't think the fact that people have "non-kayfabe" reasons for seeing him as a non-challenge should present how they present him in-character. You can't mix storyline expectations (Strong convincingly won Survival of the Fittest and has had some other big matches recently, so he could very well give Danielson a run for his money) with "non-kayfabe" expectations (Danielson just won the title and after two "short" title reigns, he will probably hold it for at least a few months).

 

You are wrong. This is what the WWE does, they just did this with Jericho last month. Not only can you mix storyline expectations with real expectations, but you should -as a booker- mix them. Especially in this case. If they have a guy who the fans don't think will beat the champ, and you want them to believe it, but there is no way at this point in time that they'll buy it, then you save it until they're ready to buy it. You can't just force things on the fans that they don't accept. You write off "non-kayfabe" as if it doesn't exist or matter. What the fans think - no matter why they think it - matters most. If the fans don't buy that Strong has a chance to beat Dragon, then that's it - they don't buy it, it doesn't work. You can throw all the "buts" and "shoulds" and "in storyline terms", but if the fans aren't buying it, they aren't buying it, and it's your fault for trying to sell them it.

 

 

No....it DID do something for Strong. This is what you either don't get or won't allow yourself to get. Strong going over a bunch of top guys last night cements him as one of the top guys in ROH. It accomplished moving Strong from a mid carder being pushed to one of the legit top guys in ROH. In other words, it solidified him as a guy who can main event shows now. It isn't that hard of a concept.

 

But he challenged Dragon. So it wasn't about being pushed as a "top guy", it was being pushed as legit challenger for the title. And in building up a challenger for the title, it didn't erase the notion that he won't beat Dragon. When you build a challenger, you either build the underdog -which this is not-, or you build a guy who is the odds-on-favourite, or you at the very least build a "I have no idea what is going to happen, who is going to win?" scenario. This did none of that, because at the end of the day, Strong won't beat Dragon. So it was a fruitless win in that -the main- regard.

 

You're problem is you are taking the idea that this win doesn't make it any more believable that Strong will beat Danielson and deciding that since it didn't accomplish that, it was worthless. You need to look at the things it did accomplish and what it was meant to accomplish.

 

It was meant to accomplish Strong as a legit contender for the title, no? Strong didn't say "I'm a top guy now!!" after the match, he challenged Dragon. The intent was to build a challenger for Dragon.

 

At the end of the day, a wrestler needs to have some wins over top caliber guys to be considered a top caliber wrestler himself. Would you disagree with that? Strong can't be portrayed as a top guy ("really, really good") without actually having some victories over other top guys. So the answer is "no"....I do not think he could be booked as a top guy just under Danielson without having some big wins under his belt.

 

Let's go back to what you wrote:

 

"booked as a guy who is really, really good but wasn't able to beat Danielson "

 

That can't be accomplished by a competitive match?

 

Like I already said, you are stuck on the win not accomplishing (in your opinion) what YOU think it should have accomplished without looking at what it DID accomplish. The win theoretically makes him a top/main event wrestler in ROH. The win benefitted him a lot then.

 

THEORETICALLY?!

 

Oh god.

 

And with that you've crossed the line into trolling.

 

And this is... ?

 

I had to re-read what I wrote because I was pretty sure what I did write didn't implicated any sort of "glass ceiling". It was right. The best I can tell is you are saying that Strong not beating Danielson on his first try would mean that there is a "glass ceiling" in ROH. Is that right? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Is Strong going to beat Dragon, despite being -theoretically- presented as a top contender? No? Why? No room for advancement, despite being presented as such, seems like a glass ceiling to me.

 

If that is what you are saying, it is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board. Wrestlers never being pushed to that next level (the main events) and sticking there is what constitutes a glass ceiling. A wrestler being pushed to the top of the cards, losing one match to the champ, and still being pushed as a top guy (assuming that is what happens), is hardly a glass ceiling.

 

I don't really care what happens after the match. My basis of reasoning is soley on last nights show, and next months show and that last nights show did nothing to benefit next months show or the guys competing in it thus making it pointless.

[Guest Andrew J.]

RRR is right; the fans really won't think Strong has any chance of winning. But wouldn't that be the case anyway? This early in his push, Strong probably wouldn't be expected to win the title regardless of the championship situation.